Cello and vibrato

How and what to teach and learn.
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timothy42b
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Cello and vibrato

Post by timothy42b » Sun Mar 24, 2019 6:21 am

Most people who work on that Sarabande from Suite 5 play with a pretty straight tone. If you have an example of a trombone with vibrato anywhere near a cello let me know.

But the examples of cello playing, like this one:


or this one:


use plenty. Shouldn't we do that also?
paulyg
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Re: Cello and vibrato

Post by paulyg » Mon Mar 25, 2019 9:12 pm

Arguing about the use of vibrato for this piece is putting the cart before the horse. We should all be so privileged to argue about such trifles...

The reality is that how a player chooses to phrase this piece determines what kind of player they are. I'll postulate this- you can miss notes and still play this piece right, and you can play this piece note-perfect and completely wrong, with right and wrong being COMPLETELY determined by the listener.

In short, it's a litmus test, to see if the musician is compatible with the listener. If vibrato is the hill you want to die on, then fine, but I'd suggest listening for what is more basic.
Paul Gilles
Aerospace Engineer & Trombone Player
imsevimse
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Re: Cello and vibrato

Post by imsevimse » Sun Apr 14, 2019 12:00 am

Play the piece the way you hear it in your head.

If you have a recording device you can experiment with different kinds of vibrato as you learn (slow verses fast, lip-vibrato verses slide-vibrato). It can be good to be very conscious of the vibrato as you learn, but once you've learned to use it it sounds best if it comes naturally. Vibrato is a very personal thing. As you learn make sure you still can choose to play the piece with no vibrato when you choose to. It must be possible to turn on and off by will, but when it is on it must come naturally IMO.

/Tom
"Do your best and then do better" ttf_watermailonman
My webbpage: https://sites.google.com/site/brazzmusic
blast
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Re: Cello and vibrato

Post by blast » Sun Apr 14, 2019 1:29 am

Different instruments are played..... differently. If you really try to imitate exactly the style of a cellist on the trombone, you would simply sound stupid. Oboes use vib, clarinets do not (nowadays)... trumpets often use vib, horns do not (excepting Russians). Trombones dip in and out of vibrato, but never in the manner of string instruments. You can learn from the musicianship of great string players for sure, but not by being a simple mimic.

Chris
timothy42b
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Re: Cello and vibrato

Post by timothy42b » Sun Apr 14, 2019 6:04 am

blast wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 1:29 am
Trombones dip in and out of vibrato, but never in the manner of string instruments. You can learn from the musicianship of great string players for sure, but not by being a simple mimic.

Chris
Yes, that's a good point. But what I'm suggesting is that part of the reason trombones avoid vibrato is tradition and not musical effect. We play with straight tone on vocal pieces where a singer would never do it that way, for example, because that's how we've been taught. Trombonists dip into vibrato maybe a little too cautiously and rarely.
harrisonreed
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Re: Cello and vibrato

Post by harrisonreed » Sun Apr 14, 2019 7:52 am

Didn't Christian push vibrato to the edge of what sounded nice on his older recordings? If anyone tried learning from string soloists, he did. Those same recordings also sold more than his newer recordings.

I think looking at what he did might be relevant to what you're talking about. Trombonists and trombone pedagogy seems to look down on his style of playing (because most teachers are trying to teach ensemble playing), but at the same time non-trombonists and especially non-brass musicians will generally prefer his recordings or live videos over other trombonists playing the same piece. He was shooting for a broader audience.

I do this at work a lot, since we have music playing in the office. Flute players and other woodwind players will usually comment on Lindberg, but will say nothing or ask to change the music if it is another trombonist. At the same time, the tuba player will be in the background talking about how Arnold Jacobs is rolling around in his grave.
harrisonreed
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Re: Cello and vibrato

Post by harrisonreed » Sun Apr 14, 2019 8:03 am

Also, that first video you posted! Hahaha
imsevimse
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Re: Cello and vibrato

Post by imsevimse » Sun Apr 14, 2019 11:33 am

One teacher I studied with for three years - the solo trombone player at the Royal Opera house in Stockholm - said "vibrato on trombone starts immediately like a cello player" and this was when I played the Bach Cello suites. I did not question this at the time. He was the alternating solo trombone player. The other solo trombonist at the Royal Opera house was the teacher of Christian Lindbergh. I guess they looked the same on how to teach vibrato since they were colleagues of the same orchestra and of the same generation. Christian is a few years older than me and I never had the chance to play with him. I do think his sound was best on the first records but technically and musically he just got better and better. At the time I started at the academy he was already doing his solo career. His career as a worldwide soloist is fantastic. Noone comes close to what he has done for the trombone, the tromboneplaying and the solo repertoire.

/Tom
"Do your best and then do better" ttf_watermailonman
My webbpage: https://sites.google.com/site/brazzmusic
2bobone
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Re: Cello and vibrato

Post by 2bobone » Sun Apr 14, 2019 6:36 pm

A beautiful tune is like a luscious, freshly baked cake ---- vibrato is the "icing" . That made me hungry ---------------- !
timothy42b
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Re: Cello and vibrato

Post by timothy42b » Mon Apr 15, 2019 6:42 am

harrisonreed wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 8:03 am
Also, that first video you posted! Hahaha
Now, that's just weird. I could swear I posted another cello player rather than a noodle maker.

Sorry! That was unintentional.
Gary
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Re: Cello and vibrato

Post by Gary » Mon Apr 15, 2019 10:35 am

Just a side comment: Vibrato on Horn was also used in East Germany.
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Savio
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Re: Cello and vibrato

Post by Savio » Mon Apr 15, 2019 7:47 pm

blast wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 1:29 am
Different instruments are played..... differently. If you really try to imitate exactly the style of a cellist on the trombone, you would simply sound stupid. Oboes use vib, clarinets do not (nowadays)... trumpets often use vib, horns do not (excepting Russians). Trombones dip in and out of vibrato, but never in the manner of string instruments. You can learn from the musicianship of great string players for sure, but not by being a simple mimic.

Chris
:good: :good: :good:

We can't copy any instrument or singer, but we can adopt ideas about how to express our own musicality.
Chris is always one to listen, just have to say it!

Leif
AndrewMeronek
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Re: Cello and vibrato

Post by AndrewMeronek » Mon Apr 15, 2019 8:08 pm

Not a cello, but Arthur Pryor clearly used a small, tight vibrato, somewhat akin to Tommy Dorsey's.



IMHO more trombonists should be more aggressive with vibrato and articulation when playing things like the Bach Cello Suites. Take risks!
“All musicians are subconsciously mathematicians.”

- Thelonious Monk
baileyman
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Re: Cello and vibrato

Post by baileyman » Mon Apr 15, 2019 8:33 pm

I am reminded Fontana was asked about vibrato. He said, in essence, "I'll put vibrato on something, and it just sounds like--slide vibrato. It's hard to personalize it."

And listening to the rest of the stuff he did, it was pretty highly personalized. When guys like Watrous, Urbie, Sy Zentner are laying it on, what does a guy do to put his own stamp on it?
harrisonreed
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Re: Cello and vibrato

Post by harrisonreed » Mon Apr 15, 2019 8:51 pm

Pryor's vibrato was always turned on because he got kicked in the face by a mule.
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