Two Cleveland Orchestra musicians fired for sexual misconduct

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Two Cleveland Orchestra musicians fired for sexual misconduct

Post by Dennis »

Concertmaster William Preucel and principal trombonist Massimo La Rosa have been fired from their positions in the Cleveland Orchestra for sexual misconduct.

New York Times article: [url]https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/24/arts ... t.html/url].

How embarrassing that one of us is involved...
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Re: Two Cleveland Orchestra musicians fired for sexual misconduct

Post by harrisonreed »

Cause and effect I suppose.
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Re: Two Cleveland Orchestra musicians fired for sexual misconduct

Post by blast »

Bring it on.... one problem that does not exist in my orchestra.... we speak....all of us.

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Re: Two Cleveland Orchestra musicians fired for sexual misconduct

Post by Davetall »

The link in the first post appears to be dead. This one is good for now

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/24/arts ... nduct.html
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Re: Two Cleveland Orchestra musicians fired for sexual misconduct

Post by Matt K »

Slideorama wrote: Thu Oct 25, 2018 2:44 pm Fear? Fear is what prevents females from coming forward as victims of sexual assault. If this brings down a mountain of sexism, misogyny, or patriarchy in symphony orchestras or wherever, bring it.
The way I read John's statement was that he was afraid that a lot of this has hitherto been unreported, not that he's literally or figuratively afraid of investigations resulting from reporting that may not be happening.
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Re: Two Cleveland Orchestra musicians fired for sexual misconduct

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blast wrote: Thu Oct 25, 2018 4:22 pm Bring it on.... one problem that does not exist in my orchestra.... we speak....all of us.

Chris
Didn't La Rosa get in the heat for conduct outside of the orchestra? There is no way to be 100% certain when it comes to people you think you know.
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Re: Two Cleveland Orchestra musicians fired for sexual misconduct

Post by Matt K »

We're probably never going to be privy to all of the details, but from the article:
“The evidence shows that both Preucil and La Rosa abused their positions as leaders and educators to entice female musicians into one-on-one situations in which they engaged in sexual misconduct,” said a report of the investigation, which was conducted by the law firm of Debevoise & Plimpton. “Both men also relied on their positions of prominence in the small classical music community to ensure that those women remained silent.”
So it would seem that the events outside of the orchestra were not exclusive to the totality of his misconduct.

EDIT: Actually it would seem that I might be misreading it and it may well 'just' be students that were victims, as detailed later in the article.
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Re: Two Cleveland Orchestra musicians fired for sexual misconduct

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From the Cleveland newspaper, the Plain Dealer:
Zachary Lewis

[email protected]

The Cleveland Orchestra has fired two prominent members on grounds of sexual misconduct.

In an announcement Wednesday, the orchestra said it had let go concertmaster William Preucil and principal trombonist Massimo La Rosa after an independent investigation concluded the two men had behaved inappropriately with several women during their tenures.

The conduct by Preucil and La Rosa was ''inappropriate, appalling, and inconsistent with the expectations we have for the members of our orchestra, our staff, and our board,'' said Richard Smucker, president of the Musical Arts Association, the orchestra's governing body, in a written statement.

''We believe the Cleveland Orchestra should be a model for respect and trust in the way we treat our musicians, our staff, and everyone with whom we work.''

Neither Preucil nor La Rosa immediately responded to requests for comment Wednesday.

The process that led to the terminations began in July, when a report detailing incidents involving Preucil were published in The Washington Post. Shortly thereafter, the orchestra placed Preucil on suspension and formed an independent committee to investigate the matter, with the assistance of an outside law firm.

Later, in September, the orchestra also suspended La Rosa, linking the decision to its ongoing investigation of sexual misconduct by its members.

The announcement Wednesday included no details of the committee's findings. Indeed, it said such material ''will remain confidential and the identity of those who came forward will remain known only to the investigators.''

The primary conclusion of the investigation, according to the announcement, was that Preucil and La Rosa ''engaged in sexual misconduct and sexually harassing behavior with multiple female students and colleagues over a period of years while employed by the orchestra.''

Additionally, it said, ''the abusive conduct by both performers was made possible by their positions of power within the orchestra and in the broader world of classical music.''

The committee also found that the alleged victims of sexual misconduct were ''intimidated'' by Preucil and La Rosa, and were ''afraid to take action'' after their experiences.

In its announcement Wednesday, the orchestra said the committee interviewed more than 70 people, including current and former students, board members, orchestra musicians and staff, and Preucil and La Rosa themselves. Two women likely included in the investigation related experiences with Preucil to The Plain Dealer.

The announcement Wednesday also said the orchestra sought to uncover any potential instances of sexual misconduct by any others at the Cleveland Orchestra, but found nothing.

''We are grateful to everyone who came forward to help with this investigation and intend to move forward as an orchestra community with a clear resolve to be more responsive and protective of our musicians, staff, and anyone with whom our people interact,'' said Andre Gremillet, the orchestra's executive director.

To that end, the orchestra said Wednesday it had revised its anti-harassment policy, clearly outlined the consequences of sexual harassment and misconduct, and established a confidential, independent hotline for reporting violations.

The goal, Gremillet said, is to make the Cleveland Orchestra as famous for its commitment to safety as it is for its performances.

''We want to be equally known for the caliber of the environment in which that music is created,'' he said.
MattK Edit: Added Quote Formatting
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Re: Two Cleveland Orchestra musicians fired for sexual misconduct

Post by imsevimse »

Hello

Somebody in power - who knows how that could happen - said while pointing fingers: "It's dangerous to be a man now... you could be wrongly accused to something like this. I have several times, many, many times so I know...." but the real problem is there has always been dangerous to be a woman in the actual crime and women also always risk to be accused to be guilty of their own misery when demanding justice. Lots, of lots of women in time have been victims of mighty men taking their chances with them. Where is "Superman" the defender of what's right?

Who knows in this case? Can we not just pretend it is all "fakenews" and go on with whatever we are doing. Go on and be real men. This was sarcasm if you did not recognize it. I can't believe today even what's sarkasm needs to be spelled out?

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Re: Two Cleveland Orchestra musicians fired for sexual misconduct

Post by timothy42b »

I've been thinking about this as a result of recent events, and trying to recall my past attitudes.

I think that in many cases, probably the vast majority, culture overrules character. What our peers think, say, and do heavily influences what we are likely to find acceptable or nonacceptable.

Yet in other cases character either rises above or sinks below the prevailing peer culture.

But our own actions and speech can influence the culture of the groups we belong to - and in some cases character requires we move out of those groups.
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Re: Two Cleveland Orchestra musicians fired for sexual misconduct

Post by Redthunder »

timothy42b wrote: Fri Oct 26, 2018 6:15 am But our own actions and speech can influence the culture of the groups we belong to - and in some cases character requires we move out of those groups.
This is a great point. I feel, at least from my own experience, that many people I see and work with are hesitant to ever say or do anything to distance themselves, draw attention to, or criticize the terrible behavior of individuals. I see this in many contexts, but especially when it comes towards treatment of women. It often feels like it's treated as a non issue, with about the same amount of concern that would be shown about a bad habit of watching a little too much TV or eating just a little too much junk food. The apathy towards it is the most insidious part.
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Re: Two Cleveland Orchestra musicians fired for sexual misconduct

Post by harrisonreed »

Yeah, that's what I thought - it came up out of his behavior as a professor. Chris, in this case "Not in my workplace. Not possible.." is exactly the type of thinking that allows misconduct to fester. You are probably right, 100%. Until you aren't.
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Re: Two Cleveland Orchestra musicians fired for sexual misconduct

Post by Mikebmiller »

My bet would be that Mr. Larosa will go back to Italy and have no problem finding a job. With the way things are now in the USA, I doubt if the Hoople Conservatory would hire him to be an adjunct sub recorder teacher.
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Re: Two Cleveland Orchestra musicians fired for sexual misconduct

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Yeah, that's what I thought - it came up out of his behavior as a professor. Chris, in this case "Not in my workplace. Not possible.." is exactly the type of thinking that allows misconduct to fester. You are probably right, 100%. Until you aren't.
Perhaps I misread Chris's statement, but I interpreted that as indicating that there is a broad awareness that it is possible, so it can't get to the stage that it did in the case of Cleveland because they won't let it get that way. Not that they gossip a lot so they are impervious to sexual misconduct.
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Re: Two Cleveland Orchestra musicians fired for sexual misconduct

Post by Kingfan »

The concept of "men have to worry now" regarding false accusations of sexual abuse is ludicrous. One of five females and two of five gay men will be sexually assaulted at some point during their lifetime. Only about 2% of all sexual assault and related charges are determined to be false, the same percentage as for other felonies (FBI).
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Re: Two Cleveland Orchestra musicians fired for sexual misconduct

Post by harrisonreed »

Matt K wrote: Fri Oct 26, 2018 8:41 am
Yeah, that's what I thought - it came up out of his behavior as a professor. Chris, in this case "Not in my workplace. Not possible.." is exactly the type of thinking that allows misconduct to fester. You are probably right, 100%. Until you aren't.
Perhaps I misread Chris's statement, but I interpreted that as indicating that there is a broad awareness that it is possible, so it can't get to the stage that it did in the case of Cleveland because they won't let it get that way. Not that they gossip a lot so they are impervious to sexual misconduct.
You're probably right. Sorry Chris!

And Tom is wondering why he has to spell out sarcasm....
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Re: Two Cleveland Orchestra musicians fired for sexual misconduct

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Kingfan wrote: Fri Oct 26, 2018 9:51 am The concept of "men have to worry now" regarding false accusations of sexual abuse is ludicrous. One of five females and two of five gay men will be sexually assaulted at some point during their lifetime. Only about 2% of all sexual assault and related charges are determined to be false, the same percentage as for other felonies (FBI).
I don't see why they have to be mutually exclusive even if the magnitude of the problem is different. Being assaulted is bad, full stop. Being falsely accused is also bad. I'm not saying that you're saying this, but just to be clear: I don't think that there is going to be a correlation (let alone a causal link) between the number of people assaulted and the number of people falsely accused. It isn't ludicrous to be worried in the sense that it happens 2% of the time, and perhaps there is some x% of those cases that are a Type II error.

In other words, I think there are solutions that allow for the number of falsely accused to drop at the same time that the number of assaults are prosecuted. Though that strays into the realm of politics and outside the realm of what can probably be fruitfully determined here. (Though I have indicated my opinion on the Facebook group).
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Re: Two Cleveland Orchestra musicians fired for sexual misconduct

Post by Kingfan »

Matt, what I am saying is that all along there has been both assaults and false accusations. Only recently has whining about false accusations been a thing, in my opinion a response to a larger number of victims being brave enough to come forward.
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Re: Two Cleveland Orchestra musicians fired for sexual misconduct

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I think its that groups are talking past each other. That happened even in the last thread prior to me shutting it down. There's really quite a consensus, at least here. But the language is easy to take out of context. E.g. "believe all women" can be interpreted erroneously as "we shouldn't have due process" when it merely means (at least by anyone I know who is a proponent thereof) "don't dismiss accusations without considering them." The latter is, unfortunately, not nearly as catchy as the former but it is also a lot more accurate.
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Re: Two Cleveland Orchestra musicians fired for sexual misconduct

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Sorry about the length of this, but I think an important point about episodes such as this Cleveland one is being missed:

Let me begin by noting that it SEEMS as though there are no females currently involved in this thread. That might possibly mean something, but let's leave that as an exercise for the reader.

But mostly what I want to say -- in the context of how these things happen and how they're handled or mishandled -- is how shocked I've been over the past few years regarding the policies of organizations like universities (and other schools and school systems generally) and various sorts of (I don't quite know how to delimit the category) "arts" or "public service" or ???? types of organizations that basically are NOT "regular" companies and corporations.

I was in management positions, off and on, from 1987 until I retired in 2009; and these ranged from managing a small group to having at least the nominal title of "Director" in research organizations within large pharma companies. Things changed a lot in that period as policies on harassment were both expanded and tightened up in terms of precision and enforcement.

It evolved to the point that HR departments devoted a substantial amount of their effort to training, documentation, and periodic testing of their managers in the harassment area. By the time I retired, any manager had to undergo significant training programs and then take tests in the "ethics" and "harassment" areas, typically on an annual basis.

Over the years, I had several women work for me; and in addition my wife and daughter have worked in both academic and industry environments at various levels and been subjected to the "usual treatment" that women can expect. In industry, in the organizations within which I worked, there would not/could not be the sort of ambiguity and somewhat confused hand-wringing that characterizes at least a lot of these harassment cases in academia and "arts organizations" areas. As a manager, if a woman employee walked through my door and said something like "I'm having some trouble with John Dork. He's making inappropriate comments to me and I don't know what to do about it.", then BANG! I HAD to pull the trigger on involving HR and the harassment policies. No, "Well, tell me how you're feeling about that and what you think should be done." No "Maybe you're misinterpreting him. I'll have a talk with him." No "You might want to think about this before you make a formal complaint. No. "Thank you for reporting it, I"ll look into it." I never had to do this, but if that relatively mild scenario had presented itself, then it was just pick up the phone immediately and invoke the well- and precisely-documented harassment policies. Even if the woman later said (or immediately said) something like "I don't want to make any trouble, but ...", it didn't matter.

But have you looked at whatever you can find out about the Cleveland Orchestra harassment policies? The only thing I can find is in the Findings of the investigation and in the Report to the Special Committee. What's there is what those of us in the real world would regard as vague and inadequate STEPS towards some kind of policy and implementation:

(1) a "revised anti-harassment policy that makes clear that the Orchestra expressly prohibits all forms and gradations of sexual misconduct and sexually harassing behavior. Clear consequences are outlined for anyone who violates the policy."
(2) "a confidential hotline operated by an independent party to enable anyone associated with the Orchestra to report anonymously, if they wish, violations of the new anti-harassment policy, the ethical principles, or the law."
(3) " a policy, going forward, that all reports of misconduct received by trustees must be referred
to Board leadership for investigation."

REALLY? The didn't already have this in place? Apparently not. And this total LACK of policy and a mechanism for reporting and enforcement is typical of academic and "academic-like" organizations -- which typically go to great lengths about how they value the rights of women. Number (3) is especially telling regarding the attitude that STILL exists. You have to report it to a TRUSTEE in order for it to be taken seriously? What about requiring ANYONE in ANY position of responsibility being required to report it to HR and trigger the required response?

It's the same thing if you look at the recent scandal concerning sexual harassment in the brain and cognitive sciences department at the University of Rochester that resulted in the resignation of the President of the University following another independent investigation. Sure, you can refer to fear as a causal factor. But in these cases -- and it certainly appears to be so in the Cleveland Orchestra case -- there is virtually a total lack of any reasonable attempt to provide an environment that will remove that fear.

This isn't something that can be accomplished by an informal consensus among scholars or artists. We know how to do it. It's been done elsewhere. But in both the Rochester and the Cleveland cases (and other academic environments with which I'm familiar) even the responses in the case of these "independent investigations" have been lame. You can view this as a cultural issue if you like (and I"m not saying it isn't that to some degree), and you can view it as a weakness of character issue (and it certainly is that), but the way to FIX it is (in part) with the adoption of clear policies and the enforcement mechanisms that will see them applied swiftly and objectively. And that just hasn't happened in a number of areas. That will correct for a lot of weakness of the will and apathy.
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Re: Two Cleveland Orchestra musicians fired for sexual misconduct

Post by Matt K »

No need to apologize for the length of your post, you make some really great points in my estimation. One of the complicating factors in this case was, as Harrison points out, that the accusers were not a part of the organization. How would such an occasion been handled?
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Re: Two Cleveland Orchestra musicians fired for sexual misconduct

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If enough people say you did something, and your employer pays some invesigator to say you did it, you did it and they fire you. That's how they would have handled it. Oh wait, that's what they did.

Honestly, great, fire people if they are accused of sexual misconduct by enough people without actual legal proof. 7000 people said Larry Nassar did bad stuff to them and he got fired, and the legal system ALSO busted him. But yeah, the organization should be held accountable as well for not having real harassment policies and hiring "investigators" to lend legitimacy to their attempt to sweep bad press under a rug.
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Re: Two Cleveland Orchestra musicians fired for sexual misconduct

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Well, then if it "came up out of his behavior as a professor", then THAT's the environment (again, an academic one) that was missing (a) the necessary policies, and (b) the necessary training, and (c) the necessary communication and encouragement to students to support immediate reporting of the infractions. However, I've looked at some university implementations of all this recently, and if I were a student -- despite all the "presentations" held on such matters -- I don't think I'd have any very clear idea at all of exactly who to report such things to, and exactly how.

Often, as now in the case of the reaction of the Cleveland Orchestra and universities I know of, what's implemented is some kind of "hot line". And people may feel that such a step is overkill for the offense in their particular case. But part of the problem there is that we're also talking about organizations that don't really have much in the way of ... er ... organization. Think about what the management structure of an orchestra or a faculty actually looks like -- if you can. Most of those people don't think they have managers, and certainly not "bosses". And the idea of having a genuine HR department that might actually impose "constraints" on them is ... unpleasant.

But in this case the accusers were part of SOME organization in SOME way (either as students, or think of them as "customers"). So THAT organization fell down on providing the appropriate mechanisms, communication, and training.

Whether transgression in one job should affect your employment in another job is a good question, and may have no fully general and simple answer. Pretty clearly the Cleveland Orchestra ultimately seemed to feel it should, and acted on that. So I assume that whatever employment agreements the orchestra has with its musicians covers (and is intended to cover) such cases and to provide a legal basis for dismissal.
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Re: Two Cleveland Orchestra musicians fired for sexual misconduct

Post by blast »

Sorry guys, that was a smug post that I should have thought more about. The people I work with are pretty good bunch in most ways, but I cannot say that the problems being talked about here could not ever happen. It would be a big shock though.

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Re: Two Cleveland Orchestra musicians fired for sexual misconduct

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ghmerrill wrote: Fri Oct 26, 2018 2:25 pm
But in this case the accusers were part of SOME organization in SOME way (either as students, or think of them as "customers"). So THAT organization fell down on providing the appropriate mechanisms, communication, and training.
Here is what the report says about what the orchestra knew and didn't know, and how information was passed between institutions. The two specific cases mentionned happened in universities (Iowa and one unnamed university) where he is not on faculty, but was only guest lecturing. Iowa did what it could, which was receiving the complaint and even though no charges were pressed in the end by the accuser, banning him from campus nonetheless. It's hard to take disciplinary measures against someone who doesn't work for you. That is central to the issue of sexual misconduct in the classical music world when it comes to disciplinary actions. The workplace structure is just so vague. Now imagine when the people involved are not even employees but freelancers...yikes

Concerns about La Rosa’s conduct were raised with members of Orchestra management on several occasions. In 2013, one instance of misconduct committed by La 2 Rosa in 2011 was reported in detail in an article in Inside Higher Ed. The article cited a complaint by a student at the University of Iowa that La Rosa asked her to lie on the floor, touched her inappropriately, and kissed her against her will.

A representative of another university (“University 1”) contacted prior Orchestra management and expressed concern about the Iowa allegations, requesting that La Rosa not be permitted one-on-one contact with students on its campus. The Orchestra agreed to those terms moving forward. The Orchestra’s management at the time discussed the Iowa allegations with La Rosa, who characterized the incident as a “misunderstanding.” There was no contemporaneous documentation of either the article or the request from University 1 in La Rosa’s personnel file. Former management was also contacted by a representative from a second university (“University 2”) in or around late 2014 or early 2015. University 2 expressed concerns about the Iowa complaint and requested that La Rosa no longer instruct students at their institution one-on-one. The Orchestra agreed to impose limitations on La Rosa’s interactions with students at University 2. The request from University 2 and the Orchestra’s response were also not documented in La Rosa’s file.

In late 2016, the current Orchestra administration was contacted by a representative of University 2, who stated that the university had received a complaint from a former student about inappropriate conduct by La Rosa. The representative from University 2 also raised concerns about the 2011 Iowa allegations. University 2 requested that La Rosa not engage in one-on-one teaching activities on its campus during an upcoming Orchestra visit during which the Orchestra was slated to offer lessons. Current management met with La Rosa, who admitted that he attempted to kiss a student during a 2011 lesson at the University of Iowa and that his behavior was inappropriate. La Rosa denied that he had engaged in any inappropriate conduct at University 2, or on any other occasion.

Debevoise did not uncover any evidence that current management was aware of the earlier requests from Universities 1 and 2 that the Orchestra limit La Rosa’s interactions with students, which were not documented by prior management. Current management documented the meeting with La Rosa about University 2’s concerns in 2016, and also attempted to investigate the incident at University 2. However, University 2 informed the Orchestra that the former student who reported the incident wished to remain anonymous and preferred not to make a formal complaint. The Orchestra consulted counsel on the issue, and concluded that since the Orchestra was unable to investigate the allegations, the Orchestra would instead reach an agreement with University 2 that La Rosa could participate in teaching activities but could not conduct private lessons. Orchestra management also issued a warning to La Rosa that inappropriate behavior with students would not be tolerated, and informed him that if any additional information surfaced to contradict his denial that he engaged misconduct at University 2, or his characterization of the Iowa incident, La Rosa would be afforded zero tolerance.

In early 2017, members of current management were contacted by a representative of the administration at the University of Iowa and informed that La Rosa was not allowed on the Iowa campus as a result of the 2011 incident. Debevoise did not uncover any evidence that current management was previously aware of that fact.

Additionally, the investigators spoke with a member of the Board of Trustees, who disclosed that an Orchestra member casually mentioned that La Rosa had a reputation for inappropriate behavior with women, but did not provide any details. The trustee discounted the comment at the time due to its vagueness and because of a perceived lack of objectivity on the part of the source, and therefore did not report the comment to Board leadership or Orchestra management.
Last edited by LeTromboniste on Fri Oct 26, 2018 6:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Two Cleveland Orchestra musicians fired for sexual misconduct

Post by hyperbolica »

I don't usually get involved in discussions like this, but I just wanted to make sure a couple of ideas get heard. 2% is a low number, but you're talking about destroying someone's career and ability to make a living based on an accusation in a country where you're innocent until proven guilty. There should be some penalty for groping students other than destroying a brilliant career. Such a life changing consequence should include due process. I'm not a big fan of the legal process, which gets it wrong too often, but its better than relying only on accusations. I definitely don't condone misconduct, but I personally wouldn't want to be held accountable for stuff I did in my youth, and I can't help but think there's a whole lot of hypocrisy and double standards - "let he who is without sin cast the first stone" and all that.
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Re: Two Cleveland Orchestra musicians fired for sexual misconduct

Post by LeTromboniste »

hyperbolica wrote: Fri Oct 26, 2018 6:18 pm I don't usually get involved in discussions like this, but I just wanted to make sure a couple of ideas get heard. 2% is a low number, but you're talking about destroying someone's career and ability to make a living based on an accusation in a country where you're innocent until proven guilty. There should be some penalty for groping students other than destroying a brilliant career. Such a life changing consequence should include due process. I'm not a big fan of the legal process, which gets it wrong too often, but its better than relying only on accusations. I definitely don't condone misconduct, but I personally wouldn't want to be held accountable for stuff I did in my youth, and I can't help but think there's a whole lot of hypocrisy and double standards - "let he who is without sin cast the first stone" and all that.
1) we're not discussing things from their youth, but things they did at the height of their career using the power of their position and influence to prey on students...(Not that misconduct during their youth would be any better - but at least you could make the case that it's not the employer's role to fire them for crimes they committed long before they were hired and we're never charged or convicted for)

2) Do the abusers' careers matter more than the careers and/or lives they ruined with their behaviour?

3) Innocent until proven guilty and due process are juridic concepts that apply to courtrooms and the ability of the government to sentence you/put you in jail. They have very limited applicability to workplace disciplinary action and no applicability in the court of public opinion. If you steal from your employer, they don't have to press charges or wait for you to be found guilty by a court of law before they can legally fire you.
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Re: Two Cleveland Orchestra musicians fired for sexual misconduct

Post by harrisonreed »

hyperbolica wrote: Fri Oct 26, 2018 6:18 pm There should be some penalty for groping students other than destroying a brilliant career.
Wow...

just leave that gem for posterity....
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Re: Two Cleveland Orchestra musicians fired for sexual misconduct

Post by LeTromboniste »

harrisonreed wrote: Fri Oct 26, 2018 6:45 pm
hyperbolica wrote: Fri Oct 26, 2018 6:18 pm There should be some penalty for groping students other than destroying a brilliant career.
Wow...
There should be some penalty, but, you know, just not big enough to be of any inconvenience to him whatsoever.
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hyperbolica
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Re: Two Cleveland Orchestra musicians fired for sexual misconduct

Post by hyperbolica »

The court of public opinion is the worst place to work through these issues because there aren't any real rules, there's no requirement for proof, no motivation to actually solve the problem. There's a lot of knee-jerk reaction going on. I'm obviously not just talking about this situation, but others that have led up to it.

When someone does something wrong that hurts someone else, it's easy to get vindictive instead of trying to fix the problem. A lot of finger wagging and public shaming is a bit of the mob rule approach. Firing these people just pushes the problem down the line. Now it's somebody else's problem, but the problem is still there. If you keep someone employed you have some leverage and can require counseling. If you make it an issue for a real court, they can impose fines, probation, restitution or public service, and count supervised rehab.

Are we punishing abusers out of vindictive posturing, or are we actually trying to prevent problems from recurring?
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Re: Two Cleveland Orchestra musicians fired for sexual misconduct

Post by Matt K »

Neither of these 'cases' were tried in the court of public opinion, so to speak. (Which was, among other things, a contribution to why we shut the other thread down as it was rapidly heading towards that direction). There was an investigation by the employer, who thought it wasn't worth the risk of keeping people on-board who had a track record of behavior that may well lead to litigation against the organization in the future. Its a prudent business move, if nothing else.

FWIW, there is an element that is impossible ignore when it comes to public facing organizations. If he were to have been an accountant at a factory and did the same thing, like 8 people would know about it, yet the same ramification may well have been levied. Sexual harassment suits are expensive for an employer. But then you have an entirely different level for entertainers/arts. Its one of the reasons I seldom watch movies or sports. Its very difficult for me to separate off the fact that a lot of people in those spheres are terrible people.
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Re: Two Cleveland Orchestra musicians fired for sexual misconduct

Post by Burgerbob »

I think, if anything, it's good to see there was finally a conclusion to a saga like this, even if it took too long (IMO).
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Re: Two Cleveland Orchestra musicians fired for sexual misconduct

Post by harrisonreed »

hyperbolica wrote: Fri Oct 26, 2018 7:59 pm The court of public opinion is the worst place to work through these issues because there aren't any real rules, there's no requirement for proof, no motivation to actually solve the problem. There's a lot of knee-jerk reaction going on. I'm obviously not just talking about this situation, but others that have led up to it.

When someone does something wrong that hurts someone else, it's easy to get vindictive instead of trying to fix the problem. A lot of finger wagging and public shaming is a bit of the mob rule approach. Firing these people just pushes the problem down the line. Now it's somebody else's problem, but the problem is still there. If you keep someone employed you have some leverage and can require counseling. If you make it an issue for a real court, they can impose fines, probation, restitution or public service, and count supervised rehab.

Are we punishing abusers out of vindictive posturing, or are we actually trying to prevent problems from recurring?
People have been fired for much more mundane things, like missing notes.
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LeTromboniste
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Re: Two Cleveland Orchestra musicians fired for sexual misconduct

Post by LeTromboniste »

hyperbolica wrote: Fri Oct 26, 2018 7:59 pm Are we punishing abusers out of vindictive posturing, or are we actually trying to prevent problems from recurring?
Let's be clear, the problem here is sexual predators using their position of power and influence to prey on young victims that are professionally vulnerable, with a clear recurring modus operandi. In what way is taking away their power and influence and taking sexual predators out of schools not helping to avoid them abusing more students? Sorry, I just don't see it.
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Re: Two Cleveland Orchestra musicians fired for sexual misconduct

Post by BGuttman »

Note that there is probably no risk in either Preucil or LaRosa doing something like a master class. All the schools asked for was for LaRosa to not do one-on-one lessons with students (and this probably goes for Preucil as well).

I find this not much different from other cases ranging from James Levine to Harvey Weinstein to Catholic Priests (and I'm not indicting them as a group; only some bad apples).

I suspect that sexual predation is a remnant in some reptilian brains dating back to when we were still hiding out in trees. Much like other antisocial behaviors it needs to be trained out of us.
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Re: Two Cleveland Orchestra musicians fired for sexual misconduct

Post by ghmerrill »

Just a couple of quickies without detail because I think people are tired of me throwing big chunks of text at them.

Most of these employment arrangements are "at will". So you can be terminated for "no reason". Even then the HR department will do EVERYTHING in its power to ensure you have been treated fairly (and certainly legally) because that's their job, they're very good at that part of it, and they have excessive fear of legal consequences for the company. Anyone who thinks otherwise has clearly had no experience with these things.

In the cases where it's not an "at will" agreement, then that will be covered contractually. Etc. So go down that path in the tree. It's well traveled.

There are matters of degree here (in at least a couple of different dimensions). This is often ignored by ideologues, but most women will be the first to acknowledge it and in fact deal with it on a continuing basis. Nothing follows from that about having the mechanisms in place to deal with them effectively and to employ those mechanisms when a report is made.

Are we trying to "punish" or to "prevent"? I'll leave out the emotive pejorative characterization of "vindictive posturing". In the case of abuse or harassment (which these cases ARE), neither vindication nor posturing applies. So the answer to the punish-or-prevent question is "Yes, we are." We're doing both -- just like we do with other crimes (like speeding or robbery or tax fraud). No mystery there, nor a moral dilemma.
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Re: Two Cleveland Orchestra musicians fired for sexual misconduct

Post by MAliesch »

I received an official letter from the orchestra today regarding the incidents.

"By now, you may have read news regarding the independent investigation involving two members of The Cleveland Orchestra - concertmaster William Preucil and principal trombonist Massimo La Rosa. As we announced October 24, Mr. Preucil and Mr. La Rosa have been dismissed from their positions with The Cleveland Orchestra based on the findings of that investigation, which was commissioned by a special committee of our board and conducted by the law firm of Debevoise & Plimpton.

Specifically, the investigators found that Mr. Preucil and Mr. La Rosa engaged in sexual misconduct and sexually harassing behavior with multiple female students and colleagues over a period of years while employed by the Orchestra. Moreover, the abusive conduct by both performers was made possible by their positions of power within the Orchestra and in the broader world of classical music. According to the investigation, women who were victims were intimidated by Mr. Preucil and Mr. La Rosa and were afraid to take action after there were subjected to the unwelcome behavior.

Mr. Preucil's and Mr. La Rosa's conduct was inappropriate and inconsistent with the expectations we have for the members of our Orchestra, our staff and our board. In addition to dismissing both of these individuals, we have taken a number of other steps to make sure we provide a workplace where everyone is treated with dignity and respect. These include revising our anti-harassment policy, adopting a clear set of ethical principles for all members of The Cleveland Orchestra community and establishing a confidential hotline to enable anyone associated with the Orchestra to anonymously report violations of our policies, our principles, or the law.

Your support for The Cleveland Orchestra is very important to us. We know you share our pride in the reputation our Orchestra has for the caliber of its music. We want to assure you the steps we have taken to address the findings of this investigation are designed to make sure The Cleveland Orchestra is equally well-known for the caliber of the environment in which that music is created."

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Re: Two Cleveland Orchestra musicians fired for sexual misconduct

Post by harrisonreed »

Outstanding
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Re: Two Cleveland Orchestra musicians fired for sexual misconduct

Post by Schlitz »

.
Last edited by Schlitz on Thu Apr 23, 2020 10:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Two Cleveland Orchestra musicians fired for sexual misconduct

Post by Kbiggs »

Schlitz wrote: Sat Oct 27, 2018 4:18 pm
ghmerrill wrote: Sat Oct 27, 2018 10:19 am
Most of these employment arrangements are "at will". So you can be terminated for "no reason". Even then the HR department will do EVERYTHING in its power to ensure you have been treated fairly (and certainly legally) because that's their job, they're very good at that part of it, and they have excessive fear of legal consequences for the company. Anyone who thinks otherwise has clearly had no experience with these things.

In the cases where it's not an "at will" agreement, then that will be covered contractually. Etc. So go down that path in the tree. It's well traveled.
No, the HR people aren’t necessarily good at their jobs, treating people fairly, or do they have any excessive fears. They have delegated authority from a higher ranking authority. Termination, is a matter of opinion by the higher ranking people. Just find something, anything.
My experience with several different employers in different types of fields and industries is more towards this second comment. That is, HR has not been supportive of me when I have had a difference of opinion with management, despite good performance ratings and customer/client comments.

That doesn’t in any way depart from most of the comments here: I am pleased that the Cleveland Orchestra hired an independent organization to conduct an investigation, and given what’s been written about the individuals dismissed, it appears they made the correct decision to terminate these two.

I am sad and angry that things like this continue to happen. I am sad and angry that people in positions of power and prestige continue to exert power and control over others, and do so in a sexually, physically, and psychologically harrassing and belittling fashion. Unless there is something pathologically wrong with an individual, people in positions of power and prestige have an obligation to treat others below them in any sort of relationship (corporate, government, teaching, mentor, etc.) as human beings, not as playthings.

I do wish that ethics were treated with more respect, e.g., Immanuel Kant’s dictum to treat others always as ends in themselves, and never as means to an end. But I suppose that’s too naive and idealistic...
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Re: Two Cleveland Orchestra musicians fired for sexual misconduct

Post by ghmerrill »

Schlitz wrote: Sat Oct 27, 2018 4:18 pm
No, the HR people aren’t necessarily good at their jobs, treating people fairly.
Welcome to the real world. Treating people fairly isn't a part of their job (or not a primary part), even though they may repeatedly tell you it is (I didn't say they were honest). Protecting the company is their job. But in doing that, they end up having to treat people fairly -- according to the announced policies, agreements, and the law. You may mean something else by "fair".
Termination, is a matter of opinion by the higher ranking people. Just find something, anything.
That's what "at will" employment MEANS. Actually, it means you don't have to "find something". It means you can dismiss for no reason (that's "at will"). The only thing you CAN'T do (without consequence) is to break any laws (civil, contractual, or criminal) in that process.
These things boil down to credibility, popularity, and which way the wind is blowing.
Sometimes. That's what "at will" MEANS. Other times it has to do with things like economics, performance, inability to get along as part of a team, not bathing often enough, not conforming to a dress code. It's kind of like being an adult. Welcome to the real world.
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Re: Two Cleveland Orchestra musicians fired for sexual misconduct

Post by jph »

harrisonreed wrote: Sat Oct 27, 2018 12:12 pm Outstanding
Yes, Outstanding.
Not outstanding was passing up the late Steve Witser for this remarkably fine...one of a kind...appointment. NOT!
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Re: Two Cleveland Orchestra musicians fired for sexual misconduct

Post by jph »

jph wrote: Sun Nov 18, 2018 6:14 pm
harrisonreed wrote: Sat Oct 27, 2018 12:12 pm Outstanding
Yes, Outstanding.
Not outstanding was passing up the late Steve Witser for this remarkably fine...one of a kind...appointment. NOT!
The Press did a fine job on this, WKYC Channel 3, illuminating the fact that the Accused placed a retaliatory lawsuit against the Univ. of Iowa Trombone Professor Jonathan Allen, whose wife was pregnant at the time.
Last edited by jph on Sat Dec 01, 2018 7:38 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Two Cleveland Orchestra musicians fired for sexual misconduct

Post by jph »

Cleveland Orchestra Board:
We're not done yet.
What did Franz Leopold Most know, and when did he know it?
What did the Board Members know, any of them...and when did they know it?
At a time when Symphonies are going belly up at an acclerated rate, obsolete to many of our youth, we get this most disgusting form of predatory arrogance. Thanks!
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Re: Two Cleveland Orchestra musicians fired for sexual misconduct

Post by LarryPrestonRoberson »

Opinions and thoughts aside about the individuals and their alleged actions, I am curious about the peripheral business dealings of Massimo La Rosa. In particular, I wonder about the endorsement of his signature model, the Bach Artisan model A47MLR; What is the fate of said model? Does anyone here (TromboneChat) know? And if so, at liberty to comment?


p.s. I've also posted a query regarding the specs of the A47MLR:
https://www.trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=7722
Last edited by LarryPrestonRoberson on Thu Dec 06, 2018 1:48 pm, edited 2 times in total.
chromebone
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Re: Two Cleveland Orchestra musicians fired for sexual misconduct

Post by chromebone »

It’s still on their website, but all references to him in its description and model designation have been removed. I’m sure they will continue to offer it.
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Re: Two Cleveland Orchestra musicians fired for sexual misconduct

Post by CalgaryTbone »

LaRosa's name has been removed from the list of Bach Artists on their site - that happened very quickly after all of this happened. I would expect that if Bach continues to sell the LaRosa model trombone, they will re-brand the name, although I imagine there are some bells still in stock with his name on them. Sort of "dark" humor here, but it could be a chance to get a good horn "really cheap" right now.
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Re: Two Cleveland Orchestra musicians fired for sexual misconduct

Post by 2bobone »

I find it to be extremely unfortunate that this subject has to be a matter of discussion on a forum like this which is dedicated to all things "trombone", but I suppose it is appropriate to the times.
During my many years in the world of the Symphony Orchestra, I was aware, and even witness, to behavior that was not only disgusting but could have easily been a matter of prosecution of the parties involved. We musicians get a lot of "slack" for our actions because, after all, we are "ARTISTS" ! We have always been excused socially for behavior that the average "Joe" would get into trouble for having done.
There are ongoing cases in which the accused are luminaries of our beloved art form and their actions have diminished the opinion of those who revere the art form as devotees.
If the clock were set back a few decades or so, one of my music directors would have been a prime example of using the power of position for inappropriate sexual improprieties. It is of small comfort that his retirement [dismissal] was for those very same inappropriate actions that he displayed on innumerable occasions. During that time, such "retirements" happened with fanfare and were glossed over with accolades, only to pass the perpetrator along to another platform from which further indiscretions could be committed. Today, I think that will not be the case. A greatly improved outcome.
Alternately, I have seen careers ruined by innuendo and no process of recourse, so far has the pendulum swung in the direction of retribution. Accusation is the only catalyst necessary to assure destruction. Ruined careers --- ruined lives.
After much refection, I can only revert to the old question that I quite often throw at politicians who should know better than to do what they do ------------ "What would your Mother think" ? it's something to think about--------.
Music is still the noble art that I always thought it was. Perhaps it's the musicians who are no longer so noble ?
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Re: Two Cleveland Orchestra musicians fired for sexual misconduct

Post by jph »

Actually, I think it is fortunate that this nonsense surfaces.
Musicians must live in the real world, with real people (customers) from a variety of vocations and walks of life, in their audiences. Those with real money and volunteer hours to support the efforts of the Artists.
It is when they retreat into a bubble of their own, risking getting pompous and smug from insularity, that they get into trouble. The support diminishes (publicaly, and even from colleagues) and they wonder why.
Luckily, the "best" of the professionals tend to be modest and very giving, thus boosting the image of the profession.The three professionals listed on my profile as teachers fit that description, as well as Urbie Green that I met and played with at age 15 when I was part of a King instrument educational promotion film. We need music programs in the schools for our youth. It is a very important outlet, and the youth need solid musical role models.

I do get amused a bit about statements talking about the differences between great musical technicians vs. true musicians. If we are talking about composers, yes, I get the assertions. But claiming performing technicians are not fully capable of being able to understand and appreciate the music is goofy. Next time I go into a NY Jazz bar I am going to request that each of the patrons present their MM, MMusEd, or similar credentials in order to qualify as audience members. A "Performers Certificate" will not suffice as it is a technician qualification. I guess, as a holder of a Doctoral degree in Business Administration (which I must apologize for, as a musical traitor), I am going to have to go out...in my blissful ignorance...and earn a BMus, with a full 12 hours in Theory, just to qualify for audience participation.
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LeTromboniste
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Re: Two Cleveland Orchestra musicians fired for sexual misconduct

Post by LeTromboniste »

jph wrote: Fri Dec 07, 2018 6:35 am I do get amused a bit about statements talking about the differences between great musical technicians vs. true musicians. If we are talking about composers, yes, I get the assertions. But claiming performing technicians are not fully capable of being able to understand and appreciate the music is goofy. Next time I go into a NY Jazz bar I am going to request that each of the patrons present their MM, MMusEd, or similar credentials in order to qualify as audience members. A "Performers Certificate" will not suffice as it is a technician qualification. I guess, as a holder of a Doctoral degree in Business Administration (which I must apologize for, as a musical traitor), I am going to have to go out...in my blissful ignorance...and earn a BMus, with a full 12 hours in Theory, just to qualify for audience participation.
I'm not sure how this relates to the topic at hand. That being said, I don't think people associate "musical technicians" only with musicians without formal education and "true musicians" only with people with formal education. Quite to the contrary, there are certainly many great musicians that have no degree (but that doesn't mean they haven't studied - understanding of music and theory is required, whether you acquired it in a school or through personal study and experience), just as there is no shortage of highly educated "musical technicians" who have the musical and artistic imagination of a 2x4, even in high profile orchestral positions...
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