…but the cup is shallow, a good old Schilke 51 might be right. It will probably feel (and be) a tiny big wider than the 5G and a bit (more than a tiny bit) deeper. It won't be as deep as the 51D, but the inner rim diameter will also be significantly larger. There is a reason this is an old standard.

As suggested above, maybe a 52E2 if you want a really deep cup (4AL deep). I don't like a 52 for anything. The smaller throat and backbore combo just don't work for me. I have a 52E2 that sounds good on euph. For me, it isn't a trombone mouthpiece.

With any old/used Schilke, try a few. Every 51 you try will be a bit different.

I agree with J's suggestion of Hammond. The Schilke 51 cup shape can sound a bit "tubby" (my words, or I think Sabutin described it has "hooty"). A Hammond 12ML fixes that and is all around more even sounding. Some like 12Ls--I haven't tried one. If you want something bigger, 10 or 11 series.

I like the Griego recommendation too. I played a 4.5 for a long time. I like my 12ML more. And if a 4G rim shape works (too round for me), you can't beat a Faxx for value.

Paul

…about 10 minutes. From the adjacent room, I heard him play that D on my horn as loud as possible repeatedly with his favorite (Denis Wick) mouthpiece at the time. When I returned to my lesson, the note did seem easier to play. It also seemed more stable in the months after that.

I don't know if he "burned" that note for me or if it was all psychological. For what it is worth, I have chosen to NOT do the same process with my students and their instruments. [/quote] Is this the anecdote Denis Wick described in p. 12 of his Trombone Technique? I’ve often wondered about it. It could be psychological, as you say. But I think there is something to it.

The late Sam Burtis (sabutin) described an incident where something like the opposite happened. He had a Conn trombone (coincidentally, I believe it was also a 6H) that played well: flexible yet stable. He said he could get a beautiful centered sound, as well as a nice shimmery brilliance. He sold it to someone who played mainly traditional jazz and Dixieland, and had a hard-blowing, raspy style of playing. Years later, Sam met the player again and play-tested the same horn. Sam said all the beauty was out of the horn. It sounded brittle, and he wasn’t able to get a beautiful, centered sound on it. When he pushed…

…study of the larger question of what it means for equipment to sound dated. Sam Burtis had some interesting observations on this point not too long ago:

Sabutin, 12/28/08:
Quotethings change, and sometimes they change for the better. With modular equipment and a fine designer, older designs can be improved upon. Over the course of a several years of experimentation with Shires horns...and I have watched people like Jim Pugh and Dave Taylor go through much the same process with Edwards instruments, along with a bunch of other makers like Mick Rath who have enabled players to do much the same thing..., I have developed a .525 bore trigger horn and a .500 bore tenor that surpass...for me...the classic Elkhart 78H/79H and 6H models after which I modeled them. In fact, both of them are a little more Bach-like in some respects than the Conns. Why? I also played some fine Mt. Vernon/NY Bachs for some time...a 36/36B and a converted single bore 16, plus a great Williams 6 and a number of '30s Conn TIS horns as well. What I learned from all of those horns went into the assembling of what I am playing now, and as a result the horns that were their original models now play and feel rather dated to me.

Sabutin, 12/27/08:
Quote In all of the m'pce changes…

…jazz ideas to not exceed your technical ability. Develop your technique to the point where you can play intricate and lightning fast licks cleanly and with the precision of a valved or keyed instrument. Make the overall sound of what you're playing the top priority, and refuse to sacrifice either cleanliness or passion. Make glisses, slop, clipped notes and clams the rare and intentional exception to a vast ocean of clean playing.

And quit trying to convince people that your sloppy-ass technique and crap sound are a feature. You're only fooling yourselves.

Okay, that's my opinion. You may now commence firing. :) [/quote] This is very interesting! Don't have so much to say since I don't feel classical, jazz or commercial. Just struggling with my slide. But there was a famous jazz player here in the forum; Sabutin or Sam Burtis. He was very classical in his thoughts how to play trombone. In fact very strict on all basic trombone aspects. Marshall Gilkes is also a trombone player that probably do everything. Joe Alessi also played jazz before.

You have some good points Dana, and I think we all will follow this topic! This will be a good discussion. Because we all have something to learn from each other! Hope I can learn improvising but think it's to late.

Leif

…or not. Doug can help you with this in a Skype or Zoom lesson.

Finally, I will give you one thing to try that many brass teachers would take issue with, but it worked for me to adjust the timing of my tongue, and it's working for my students. Set yourself up to do an exercise like the Caruso Six Notes (see Julie's video), tap your foot ahead of time by at least 4 beats, and then when it comes time to play the first note, bring your tongue into position for the articulation EXACTLY a half beat ahead of when you want to the note to speak. Try it without the instrument; say "1, 2, 3, 4 N-Ta" The N happens exactly on the and of 4. Try it again and put it on the 4th 16th of beat 4.

For the record, I'm not saying to play this way for the rest of your life; I'm saying to try this to get yourself out of the tongue lock habit by applying rhythm to the preparatory motion of the tongue - the backswing if you will.

The inspiration for this exercise, and for my own exploration of the tip of the Caruso iceberg, was the late great Sam "Sabutin" Burtis, RIP. https://www.trombone.org/articles/articles.php alphabetical by first name