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AFTER   BEFORE 
by ttf_sabutin
Sat Jul 11, 2015 10:56 am
Forum: TTF Archives / TTF Archives / Horns, Gear, and Equipment / Instruments
Topic: Shires Q&A, what would you like to know?
Replies: 1195
Views: 394143

Shires Q&A, what would you like to know?

[url=http://tromboneforum.org/index.php?topic=73670.msg1087057#msg1087057]Quote from: louilou on Jul 10, 2015, 09:37PM[/url]---snip---

Going back next week to review some of the things in the "American Trombonist" book. A lot of
wisdom and effective advice distilled in that book.



Thank you. I must say that my newer book is much better than that one. More complete; more thorough. Easier to use on lots of levels.[url=http://samburtis.com/sams-books/] Check it out[/url].

S.
by ttf_sabutin
Fri Jul 10, 2015 6:32 pm
Forum: TTF Archives / TTF Archives / Horns, Gear, and Equipment / Instruments
Topic: Shires Q&A, what would you like to know?
Replies: 1195
Views: 394143

Shires Q&A, what would you like to know?

[url=http://tromboneforum.org/index.php?topic=73670.msg1087005#msg1087005]Quote from: louilou on Jul 10, 2015, 02:12PM[/url]Mr. Griffin:

I bought an used Shires 7.75 inch yellow bell 1YM, lightweight slide trombone. I play it with a Shires Vintage 11C.
And with a #2 brass lead pipe. I would like to mellow it out a little to get to the sound I want.
DJ Kennedy suggested to change the 11C mouthpiece to a Bach 11 (without the C) mouthpiece and get a copper or gold brass  lead pipe.
In your experience, will this be in the right direction? I love the horn in all other respects, but I
am getting a sound that lacks the warmth I want.

Regards

Short answer:

Yes. This would probably be all "in the right direction." The Shires 11Cs that I have played have always seemed to me to be a little lacking in the sound department. A little too bright, a little too...simple...in an overtones sense. Maybe a little too far in that direction if you combined them, though.

Longer answer:

The lightweight slides are also a little too "simple" sounding for my tastes, especially at volume. But...more complex sounds can be harder to handle…
by ttf_sabutin
Tue Jun 09, 2015 10:24 pm
Forum: TTF Archives / TTF Archives / Horns, Gear, and Equipment / Instruments
Topic: Shires Q&A, what would you like to know?
Replies: 1195
Views: 394143

Shires Q&A, what would you like to know?

[url=http://tromboneforum.org/index.php?topic=73670.msg1081356#msg1081356]Quote from: ntap on Jun 09, 2015, 09:04AM[/url]
A bit off topic from this Shires-centered post, but beneficial to the larger conversation, maybe: 
When choosing new equipment, I have heard that it's best to stick with something for 3+ months (I was told through students of Laurie Frink that she said if you make an equipment change, be prepared to keep it that way for 6 months).  However, I also feel I'll know within a few days or a week of practicing/playing gigs if I like something or not.  I think I tend to make changes in equipment a little too quickly if I feel something isn't going to work, but essentially when trying out a horn, you only have a few days, maybe weeks (maybe only hours!) to know if something's going to work out for (hopefully) a lifetime. 

Would love to hear opinions....Ben and Sam?  Great discussion. 

Economics enter here. And time as well because as they say, time is money. Given total freedom to experiment I suppose that all talented players could come up "the perfect" equipment. But there is no total freedom. Even the richest trombonist in the world has to buckle down and prove the pudding in performance. If it fails...especially…
by ttf_sabutin
Tue Jun 09, 2015 8:21 am
Forum: TTF Archives / TTF Archives / Horns, Gear, and Equipment / Instruments
Topic: Shires Q&A, what would you like to know?
Replies: 1195
Views: 394143

Shires Q&A, what would you like to know?

[url=http://tromboneforum.org/index.php?topic=73670.msg1081339#msg1081339]Quote from: griffinben on Jun 09, 2015, 07:23AM[/url]
---snip---

I would concentrate on trying to define your ideal tone color both in your mind's ear and in less subjective terms.  This will keep you focused on what sound you are after as well as being able to better communicate your wants in words to the staff.

---snip---
Ben is right on the money. Timbre is the key. Find the basic sound that you want...which is mostly a matter of bell alloy/weight/size and slide alloy/weight/bore...and then fine tune the attacks, resistances, articulation, projection, flexibility, focus etc. w/leadpipes, crooks and valves systems if applicable. That's what I have learned from assembling 5 Shires horns for particular uses.

Also...beware the "practice room" syndrome. The only way that I have really finalized any of these horns has been playing music in the situations for which I put them together. If you can afford it and/or the music store will give you a couple of weeks to decide, go home with at least several leadpipes and tuning slides. A couple of bells wouldn't hurt either. The proof is in the performance.

Good luck...

S.
by ttf_sabutin
Fri Dec 19, 2014 9:37 am
Forum: TTF Archives / TTF Archives / Horns, Gear, and Equipment / Instruments
Topic: Shires Q&A, what would you like to know?
Replies: 1195
Views: 394143

Shires Q&A, what would you like to know?

[url=http://tromboneforum.org/index.php?topic=73670.msg1048152#msg1048152]Quote from: keybone on Dec 19, 2014, 09:18AM[/url]I have a '70's King 3-B Silversonic. 

---snip---

 When I play big band lead, it can be rather difficult to play in the high register for long periods of time.  With the smaller bell and lightweight slide, would you think the MD+ might help solve some of those problems? 

---snip---
Short answer:

Yes, I do. One of the problems w/3B SS horns is that they produce a very "dark"...complex, actually...sound. Lead playing wants a more lyrical and/or brighter sound combined with easier, more pronounced attacks. A great deal of good lead playing has to do with bridging the gap between trumpet and trombone sounds and much of the rest of it is involved with sounding as a lead voice over several other trombones. Barring chop issues, a 3B SS can be a bear as a lead horn. Been there. It can be done, but it is a hard job. Much easier on a brass 3B or any number of other similar-sized or smaller horns. I only played the MB+ for a few minutes, but I was quite impressed. I don't really like the original MB version...it's good but simply too…
by ttf_sabutin
Fri Dec 19, 2014 8:31 am
Forum: TTF Archives / TTF Archives / Horns, Gear, and Equipment / Instruments
Topic: Shires Q&A, what would you like to know?
Replies: 1195
Views: 394143

Shires Q&A, what would you like to know?

[url=http://tromboneforum.org/index.php?topic=73670.msg1048112#msg1048112]Quote from: Duffle on Dec 19, 2014, 03:33AM[/url]You going to buy one, Sam?.......

It's crossed my mind...

S.
by ttf_sabutin
Wed Dec 17, 2014 9:17 am
Forum: TTF Archives / TTF Archives / Horns, Gear, and Equipment / Instruments
Topic: Shires Q&A, what would you like to know?
Replies: 1195
Views: 394143

Shires Q&A, what would you like to know?

[url=http://tromboneforum.org/index.php?topic=73670.msg1047784#msg1047784]Quote from: griffinben on Dec 17, 2014, 08:17AM[/url]It's a great horn!

.508, nickel lightweight slide with a round yellow brass crook, lightweight 7.75" bell, SY 1.5 tuning slide and a T8 1.5 leadpipe.

Plays very much like the original Michael Davis, just let out a size.  It feels very stable to play but you can expand into the sound more.  Broader core that isn't quite as dense as the original MD, but a more immediately more expansive sound.  Real open low register.  And I would say that the broader core gives it a little more timbral flexibility than the original MD. 

If you are fed up with how rigid a King 3-B feels but want similar qualities in terms of size of sound and versatility, this is it.  I honestly think it has the potential to become an even bigger success than the standard Michal Davis model!

It's been getting great reactions from the public.  There's one at the Mid-West Band Festival right now.  We've also been making a bunch for dealers, so you should see them popping up all over.

Anything more specific you'd like to know about it?
I played…
by ttf_sabutin
Mon Nov 10, 2014 2:36 pm
Forum: TTF Archives / TTF Archives / Horns, Gear, and Equipment / Instruments
Topic: Shires Q&A, what would you like to know?
Replies: 1195
Views: 394143

Shires Q&A, what would you like to know?

[url=http://tromboneforum.org/index.php?topic=73670.msg1041628#msg1041628]Quote from: griffinben on Nov 10, 2014, 12:05PM[/url]This all depends...what .508 slide, and what are you going for?

In very general, nickel lightweight slides are the most popular, with a quick response and action.  It is a bright, clear sound.  Standard weight brass slides have more heft and warmth to the sound.  Brass lightweight slides are a little warmer and a bit more diffuse than either slide.  Also, the .508 slides play a little bit on the big side of things to my sensibilities, more like a Benge 160 or a baby Conn 78H.
My experience exactly.

Quote---snip---

7.75 is the goldielocks bell, doing what 8" bells do for other manufacturers.  It can be broad or focused and works well on any chair in a dance band.  The 8" bells take a step closer to a medium bore, to my ears.
Again...right on the money, right on up and down the sub-.525 bore sizes. I made the mistake...not a serious one, but a mistake nevertheless...of choosing an 8" bell for my .485 bore horn. They didn't have a 7.75' in my preferred model (a 7YLW) available for extended tryout when I went up there, only a 7.5" and an…
by ttf_sabutin
Wed Oct 29, 2014 7:44 am
Forum: TTF Archives / TTF Archives / Horns, Gear, and Equipment / Instruments
Topic: Shires Q&A, what would you like to know?
Replies: 1195
Views: 394143

Shires Q&A, what would you like to know?

[url=http://tromboneforum.org/index.php?topic=73670.msg1039534#msg1039534]Quote from: musicmatt12 on Oct 28, 2014, 02:48PM[/url]Sam,

Thanks for your input. This isn't really about changing anything drastic in terms of mouthpiece size, etc. It's more about going from one brand/type of mouthpiece to another of essentially the same size. While that may take a little bit of time to fully adjust, I don't see it as a months-long process.
Up to you. "Essentially the same size" can have many meanings. A different resistance can happen between two supposedly the same m'pces, and it's the resistance that talks to you about a new horn as much as anything else. Just going from a 6.5AL to a 6.5A was a trip when I did it in the early '70s. Of course, I had never played another m'pce previous to that, but still...things got very interesting for a while. Interesting enough that I still remember it.

Quote---snip---

My question is more along the lines of: does trying out a horn on (and building it around) a mouthpiece that mates better with it outweigh trying out a horn on a more familiar mouthpiece that you would ultimately be changing? I'm not so much worried about the adjustment period as I…
by ttf_sabutin
Tue Oct 28, 2014 1:08 pm
Forum: TTF Archives / TTF Archives / Horns, Gear, and Equipment / Instruments
Topic: Shires Q&A, what would you like to know?
Replies: 1195
Views: 394143

Shires Q&A, what would you like to know?

[url=http://tromboneforum.org/index.php?topic=73670.msg1039508#msg1039508]Quote from: musicmatt12 on Oct 28, 2014, 12:28PM[/url]Hey Ben,

I have a couple of questions regarding the pairing of mouthpieces with Shires horns. I know this might also fit in the Mouthpiece section, but this also concerns testing out Shires horns. Firstly, do you notice any patterns of particular mouthpieces (thinking brand not size) that Shires horns tend to work well with? Different horns tend to mate better with certain mouthpieces, and I recall you saying at the factory that the Shires New Classic pieces (based on Greg Black tenor pieces?) worked better with Shires and other more "modern" horn setups, whereas Shires Vintage pieces (based on Mt. Vernon Bach pieces?) worked better with older style horns. Specific to my situation, I came to the factory just to try out mouthpieces on my Greenhoe/Bach 42 and switched from a Shires Vintage 4G to a New Classic 4 1/2M. When also trying out the Shires horns while there, I used the new New Classic mouthpiece. It seemed to work a lot better in the Shires horns than my Greenhoe/Bach 42, but I wasn't there to buy a horn. I eventually switched to a Shires Vintage 5G for my Greenhoe/Bach, but I'm thinking about getting a Shires horn soon, which is why I'm asking about this…
by ttf_sabutin
Thu Aug 21, 2014 8:32 am
Forum: TTF Archives / TTF Archives / Horns, Gear, and Equipment / Instruments
Topic: Shires Q&A, what would you like to know?
Replies: 1195
Views: 394143

Shires Q&A, what would you like to know?

[url=http://tromboneforum.org/index.php?topic=73670.msg1028433#msg1028433]Quote from: tsmart on Aug 21, 2014, 05:03AM[/url]Anything new in R&D that can be mentioned?

T.

Not really...

[img]https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3071112/Trombone%20rocket.jpg[/img]

S.
by ttf_sabutin
Wed Aug 13, 2014 6:38 pm
Forum: TTF Archives / TTF Archives / Horns, Gear, and Equipment / Instruments
Topic: Shires Q&A, what would you like to know?
Replies: 1195
Views: 394143

Shires Q&A, what would you like to know?

[url=http://tromboneforum.org/index.php?topic=73670.msg1027340#msg1027340]Quote from: griffinben on Aug 13, 2014, 01:02PM[/url]Gold will resist this a bit, but not completely.  If you have highly acidic pH level you will wear through the gold as well.  It just might take a year longer.

The only real solution is to clean your horn often.  Its far less expensive and will not change the way your instruments plays the way gold plating does.

What does gold plating do?  Tends to add weight, which changes response.  It also lends a heft and warmth to the sound quality.  Sam has a gold plated small bore, so I will let him comment on it more.

Due to the high price, we do not gold plate many trombones.

Ben

 

I like moderately "dark" sounds when I play, but I also often have to play at quite high volumes in strenuously high registers...think 2 or 3 sets of lead in a screaming latin big band. Smaller horns/smaller m'pces make the high/loud/long thing easier, but they also tend to get very bright sounding in those situations. (I think of it as "nasty," actually.) I played a fine Mt. Vernon Bach single bore 16 (converted ny John "Peppy" Pettinato) when I…
by ttf_sabutin
Wed Aug 13, 2014 11:27 am
Forum: TTF Archives / TTF Archives / Horns, Gear, and Equipment / Instruments
Topic: Shires Q&A, what would you like to know?
Replies: 1195
Views: 394143

Shires Q&A, what would you like to know?

[url=http://tromboneforum.org/index.php?topic=73670.msg1027302#msg1027302]Quote from: francischap on Aug 13, 2014, 10:16AM[/url]A Shires related question. I wondered why Michael Davis went for .491 straight bore rather than dual. Did his 2B have that modification?

I haven't talked to Mike about it, but knowing what I know about the whole Shires process I'll bet he settled on that spec because it's what worked the best for him. Guaranteed he tried many combinations.

Guaranteed.

S.
by ttf_sabutin
Tue Aug 12, 2014 10:34 am
Forum: TTF Archives / TTF Archives / Horns, Gear, and Equipment / Instruments
Topic: Shires Q&A, what would you like to know?
Replies: 1195
Views: 394143

Shires Q&A, what would you like to know?

[url=http://tromboneforum.org/index.php?topic=73670.msg1027127#msg1027127]Quote from: griffinben on Aug 12, 2014, 06:59AM[/url]
---snip---

If you were looking for a more .525 like feel, I would recommend a .508 bore slide in lightweight nickel or brass paired with our standard tuning slide. 

The 7.75 bell is our Goldielocks bell size, capable of lead and 3rd commercial parts and can be at home in an orchestral pops setting.  It is more like an 8" bell you would expect from King or Conn.  I wouldn't have believed it if I hadn't played so many myself back to back.  Our 8" bell tends to get a bigger sound more in line with a larger instrument.

Ben

What he said.

I like the regular weight brass slides more, myself...a deeper sound, more overtones...but there's a lot to be said for the lightweights as well. Less effort for similar presence out front, just for starters. Lots less effort. And as much as I like my 8" 7LW bell as a lyrical lead bell w/my .485 slide, I regret that they didn't have a 7.75 bell available when I got it. There is a point to the sound of the Shires 7.75" bells that disappears on…
by ttf_sabutin
Wed Aug 06, 2014 2:06 pm
Forum: TTF Archives / TTF Archives / Horns, Gear, and Equipment / Instruments
Topic: Shires Q&A, what would you like to know?
Replies: 1195
Views: 394143

Shires Q&A, what would you like to know?

[url=http://tromboneforum.org/index.php?topic=73670.msg1026009#msg1026009]Quote from: griffinben on Aug 06, 2014, 05:52AM[/url]This is a great question, not because I can answer it but why I can't answer it.

I couldn't possibly say without having a basis of comparison.

While we know how to change parts of the instrument to effect the way an instrument plays in a fairly consistent manner, we cannot account for the biggest variable: the player. 

Their physical make-up, their playing level, their aesthetic goals, how they define words like "dark", "core", "Projection...all of these things are personal and will lend different combinations to recommend themselves.  I can put the exact same instrument in two different players hands and they might sound radically different.

So while I know that I can get certain results with "standard" Shires components I cannot say what those parts should be until I can either hear the player in person or they can provide me with some A-B-C comparisons.  (FWIW, in person is ALWAYS preferred).

I hope that makes sense.

Ben


Ben

On 5 horns' worth of personal experience...5 horns that probably necessitated 10 or 12 visits to the factory plus I…
by ttf_sabutin
Wed Jul 09, 2014 9:25 pm
Forum: TTF Archives / TTF Archives / Horns, Gear, and Equipment / Instruments
Topic: Shires Q&A, what would you like to know?
Replies: 1195
Views: 394143

Shires Q&A, what would you like to know?

[url=http://tromboneforum.org/index.php?topic=73670.msg1021087#msg1021087]Quote from: Duffle on Jul 09, 2014, 01:35PM[/url]Ben,
just wondering where the 2RVE and 2RVE T7 bells fit into the Shires weight nomenclature. Are they made from the same gauge as the LW bells?.....

Gabe pins it in terms of gauge or weight. There's more to it than just the originating metal. I can tell you this about those bells, though...the regular 2RVE bells play "heavier" than most of the bells that I played there while deciding which one to get. Not darker exactly, and certainly not slow to react. To use a boxing or martial arts metaphor, they play the same way as a good boxer hits when he sets his feet and punches from the hips. They have broad power and force. They're not like a jab or a punch thrown while doing evasionary maneuvers with the feet. They have body. Boxers call it "setting down on a punch." It's the thing I most like about them.

Look at my icon for more on the subject. The "Old Mongoose," Archie Moore.

Here's a bigger version.

[img]
  • Jump to post
    • by ttf_sabutin
    Thu Apr 10, 2014 12:59 pm
    Forum: TTF Archives / TTF Archives / Horns, Gear, and Equipment / Instruments
    Topic: Shires Q&A, what would you like to know?
    Replies: 1195
    Views: 394143

    Shires Q&A, what would you like to know?

    [url=http://tromboneforum.org/index.php?topic=73670.msg1006264#msg1006264]Quote from: cigmar on Apr 10, 2014, 12:29PM[/url]Exactly the kind of answer I was looking for.  Thank you.  As a follow up,  what different characteristics can one expect from say a 7Y, 7YM, and 7YLW bell?



    I can answer that one, to some degree. If you are familiar with different brass gauges in the same alloy and what the different weights actually do, it's easy. The Shires bells generally play, sound and and feel almost one weight heavier than how they are marked. So the M bells feel a just a little bit heavy, the LW bells feel pretty mainstream...maybe a little quicker and brighter than say a stock Elkhart Conn reg. weight bell...and the "reg. weight" bells have some interesting mass to them. Your results may differ, but that's what I have noticed over years of trying bells at the factory, at conventions and at home. When I started playing Shires horns about 12 years ago I liked the regular weight bells...often in red or gold brass...but styles change and so do people. Things are getting brighter these days. My current fave is an 8" 7LW on my smallbore slides. I think if I was playing a great deal of orchestral or chamber work I'd feel the same way…
    by ttf_sabutin
    Tue Dec 17, 2013 7:23 am
    Forum: TTF Archives / TTF Archives / Horns, Gear, and Equipment / Instruments
    Topic: Shires Q&A, what would you like to know?
    Replies: 1195
    Views: 394143

    Shires Q&A, what would you like to know?

    [url=http://tromboneforum.org/index.php?topic=73670.msg987212#msg987212]Quote from: TromboneMonkey on Dec 16, 2013, 08:29PM[/url]Heya Ben,

    Per a question I had in another thread-- I was wondering if there were many players who opt for the unlacquered bell on their horns, specifically on large bore axes. It seems like a rarity, and I'm not sure if that's because of the maintenance involved or if it's because players generally prefer the sound of lacquered horns?


    I don't know about "how many," but I personally have never had a horn that didn't get better when I took the lacquer off of the bell or bell section. I recently did it again w/a small bore Shires 7LW bell that I liked a great deal except for its projection characteristics. The very first gig I did w/it...Mike Longo's Funk Band at the Baha'i Center in NYC, a venue that I must have played over well 100 times and a very hard room to hear the trombone onstage (no mike or monitors to speak of but a fairly small room...say 100 seats)...I clearly heard it coming off of the back wall at mf and above. That's my test. In a room I know, if I can hear it of the back wall I know…
    by ttf_sabutin
    Fri Dec 13, 2013 9:52 am
    Forum: TTF Archives / TTF Archives / Horns, Gear, and Equipment / Instruments
    Topic: Shires Q&A, what would you like to know?
    Replies: 1195
    Views: 394143

    Shires Q&A, what would you like to know?

    [url=http://tromboneforum.org/index.php?topic=73670.msg986686#msg986686]Quote from: griffinben on Dec 13, 2013, 08:26AM[/url]---snip---

    The 7.5" definitely can project.  I used this bell size on my small bore for many, many years and nobody ever complained about the projection.  Different strokes for different folks.
    Yup. I never actually took a 7.5" bell home to try on gigs, so I am only going on what I heard and felt at the factory.

    QuoteThe 8" bell is definitely bigger in size and scope.  It can be lush if you are the right player for it.  It sounds bigger to my ears than a King 3B or 6H (not as focused).  It seems to have more in common with a great 78H bell.  So you can have that sound in a smaller bore, easier to accelerate package.
    A 78H bell...that's kind of what you were hearing when I played it at that rehearsal w/the .508 slide and Clarke L m'pce and you said I could use it in a symphony, right? I can see that...probably why I like that combo so much...back to my high school roots w/ a red brass '30s 78H Special and a 6.5 AL m'pce. But that same 8" 7LW bell w/ a great Mt. Vernon 12C…
    by ttf_sabutin
    Thu Dec 12, 2013 3:40 pm
    Forum: TTF Archives / TTF Archives / Horns, Gear, and Equipment / Instruments
    Topic: Shires Q&A, what would you like to know?
    Replies: 1195
    Views: 394143

    Shires Q&A, what would you like to know?

    [url=http://tromboneforum.org/index.php?topic=73670.msg986550#msg986550]Quote from: Matt K on Dec 12, 2013, 10:33AM[/url]Are there generalizations about the differences between 7, 7.5, and the 8" bells-all else being equal?



    Well first of all...it's 7.5", 7.75" and 8" bells. That being said...

    I have messed around w/the various sizes on a number of horns, and the only differences/commonalities I can hear and feel that are common among all of those sizes on sub-.525 bore horns are these:

    The 7.5" bells get bright very early in the dynamic range...a little too early for my tastes...and the attacks and articulations are quite pointed. I didn't think that they were projecting very well, either. However, some of that can be ameliorated by alloy and weight choices.

    The 7.75" bells are very well balanced for the kind of playing that I most do...acoustic playing at volume w/projection and good, solid attack characteristics. Really middle of the road, but it's a good road.

    The 8" bells are...lush. Gorgeous sounding, I think. Maybe not quite so forceful as an equivalent 7.75" nor quite as projecting, but for anything that doesn't require gorillaing the…
    by ttf_sabutin
    Tue Nov 26, 2013 6:44 am
    Forum: TTF Archives / TTF Archives / Horns, Gear, and Equipment / Instruments
    Topic: Shires Q&A, what would you like to know?
    Replies: 1195
    Views: 394143

    Shires Q&A, what would you like to know?

    [url=http://tromboneforum.org/index.php?topic=73670.msg984002#msg984002]Quote from: griffinben on Nov 26, 2013, 06:17AM[/url]Gold brass does add a lot of color to the sound.  The lightweight versions work very well, particularly when paired with a lightweight bell.  A 2RVE with a TW47GLW is a great horn; it's one of Steve's favorites.  We've also done some TW25GLW slides that are great.

    The trade off is articulation, it's not quite as pointed as yellow brass.  It's clear but more of a hard "D" than a hard "T".

    The TB47-62LW works excellent as a smaller/lighter sounding bass trombone slide.  I think your idea would yield a responsive, bouncy, colorful horn that would be perfect for light classical work.
    I have an 8" and an 8.5" 2RVE (both red brass) bell that I play (interchangeably) w/T25 and T47LW slides. A great bell. The 8.5 coupled w/the T25 is so good for chamber music!!! And the 8"/T25 axe is my favorite solo instrument as along as the rhythm section isn't overamped. Articulation? Never too much; never too little, always just right..at least for what I am doing.

    Just sayin'...

    S.
    by ttf_sabutin
    Mon May 22, 2017 12:43 pm
    Forum: TTF Archives / TTF Archives / Horns, Gear, and Equipment / Accessories
    Topic: playing w/out a counterweight on a 6H?
    Replies: 26
    Views: 9049

    playing w/out a counterweight on a 6H?

    [url=http://tromboneforum.org/index.php?topic=74205.msg996809#msg996809]Quote from: oslide on Feb 15, 2014, 05:56AM[/url]The difference between counterweight on and off can be tested by using two tuning slide crooks, one with counterweight and one without.

    The crooks can be swapped within seconds and as often as one likes. To make up for differences of the crooks themselves the whole thing is repeated after putting the counterweight on the other crook.

    I did that a couple of years ago and felt an effect on timbre, compactness of sound, and the slotting. Although not dramatic, the difference was clearly noticable. Overall it was an interesting and worthwhile experience.

    Yes. Even w/one tuning slide...you just need to get quick w/attaching the weight.

    S.
    by ttf_sabutin
    Mon May 22, 2017 12:41 pm
    Forum: TTF Archives / TTF Archives / Horns, Gear, and Equipment / Accessories
    Topic: playing w/out a counterweight on a 6H?
    Replies: 26
    Views: 9049

    playing w/out a counterweight on a 6H?

    [url=http://tromboneforum.org/index.php?topic=74205.msg996805#msg996805]Quote from: bigbandaxes on Feb 15, 2014, 03:32AM[/url]I play my mid 1950's 20H without a counterweight. I think a lot has to do with the left hand grip you use.

    Yes.

    That too.

    [img]https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3071112/Trombone%20Grips-No%20trigger%20from%20below%20copy.JPG[/img]

    S.
    by ttf_sabutin
    Thu Dec 26, 2013 6:50 am
    Forum: TTF Archives / TTF Archives / Horns, Gear, and Equipment / Accessories
    Topic: playing w/out a counterweight on a 6H?
    Replies: 26
    Views: 9049

    playing w/out a counterweight on a 6H?

    It has been my own experience on all of my straight tenors that a counterweight somewhat darkens and dulls the sound, projection and attacks from about mf right on up through really loud playing. I have found this to be true on old horns and newer ones of all brands. On the other hand, I actually like the sound characteristics of my Shires .525 better with the TruBore valve on rather than as a straight horn. Go figure. Maybe it's not just "weight" but placement as well. Try everything; use what works. For you. I generally play in quite aggressive ensembles...latin bands, jazz groups w/strong rhythm sections, mostly unamplified big bands, etc...in possibly the most generally "aggressive" city on the world, New York, so what I do is not necessarily what you should do.

    Word...

    S.

    P.S. About the weight/balance thing. I play at more than 90 degrees straight out and I am by no means a super-strong beast of a man. Just average, except maybe in terms of stubborness. ( [img]http://tromboneforum.org/Smileys/otjf/horror.gif[/img] [img]http://tromboneforum.org/Smileys/otjf/horror.gif<…
    by ttf_sabutin
    Sun Aug 13, 2017 10:22 am
    Forum: TTF Archives / TTF Archives / Horns, Gear, and Equipment / Instruments
    Topic: Next Horn
    Replies: 36
    Views: 12111

    Next Horn

    [url=http://tromboneforum.org/index.php?topic=79061.msg1207752#msg1207752]Quote from: harrison.t.reed on Aug 13, 2017, 08:54AM[/url]Guys, this thread ended three years ago.

    Yup.

    When I clicked on the "Show unread posts since last visit" above...which I do regularly...it glitched sent me into the past. The "Wayback" past. And there I saw a post from someone who has seemed to me recently to be a little...off. I thought he was being off now, but I see he was doing it much earlier.

    Sorry...

    S.
    by ttf_sabutin
    Sun Aug 13, 2017 7:23 am
    Forum: TTF Archives / TTF Archives / Horns, Gear, and Equipment / Instruments
    Topic: Next Horn
    Replies: 36
    Views: 12111

    Next Horn

    Post taken down...I didn't realize this was an old thread.

    Sorry...

    S.
    by ttf_sabutin
    Tue Aug 12, 2014 10:01 am
    Forum: TTF Archives / TTF Archives / Horns, Gear, and Equipment / Instruments
    Topic: Next Horn
    Replies: 36
    Views: 12111

    Next Horn

    [url=http://tromboneforum.org/index.php?topic=79061.msg1027154#msg1027154]Quote from: Andrew Pacht on Aug 12, 2014, 09:41AM[/url]Who deals in 3Bs that would have more insight?
    Nobody.

    QuoteI saw a 3B bell in the classifieds and I have been considering getting it, but I don't know if I want to spend $300 on a bell section of a horn that I don't have, and a bell section that I may not even use.  I think the bell came from you DJ.

    Careful.

    If you can't actually play the horn and you don't have money to lose, don't gamble. DJ knows his stuff.

    Also...if you have a car, I would strongly suggest making a day trip to Dillon Music in NJ. They always have a whole wall of used horns plus a good stock of new ones. You want to know the difference between a brass bell and silver bell 3B? No better place to find out. You might luck out there as well and find a horn...not necessarily a 3B...that you like at a price that you can afford.

    Otherwise...just listen to DJ.

    Later...

    S.
    by ttf_sabutin
    Tue Aug 12, 2014 9:55 am
    Forum: TTF Archives / TTF Archives / Horns, Gear, and Equipment / Instruments
    Topic: Next Horn
    Replies: 36
    Views: 12111

    Next Horn

    [url=http://tromboneforum.org/index.php?topic=79061.msg1027119#msg1027119]Quote from: Andrew Pacht on Aug 12, 2014, 06:21AM[/url]I am about to be a Freshman music ed major at Fredonia.  I currently bought a Rath R4F from a forum member, and I LOVE the horn.  Now I'm trying to move my Bach 42BO.  (I am not selling it on TTF, I have friends and my lesson teacher's students that may be interested.)  I'm probably going to get about $1,400 for it, and that money is going to go towards the new horn.

    I've been thinking a while about getting a small bore.  I tend to play bright, so anything smaller than a 3B is going to get very very bright.  I would either get a straight 3B or a straight 3BSS if I were to get a small bore horn.

    Yesterday, in my lesson, my teacher and I were talking about horns in the future.  He knows that I like playing a lot of jazz, so we were talking about horns.  Then he asked me if I had considered buying a bass bone.  I hadn't thought about that.  I played his bass from time to time for concerts, but I really hadn't considering getting my own any time soon.
    (At some point in my life, I want to…
    by ttf_sabutin
    Tue May 16, 2017 3:01 pm
    Forum: TTF Archives / TTF Archives / Horns, Gear, and Equipment / Accessories
    Topic: Suggestions on trombone stands?
    Replies: 73
    Views: 24688

    Suggestions on trombone stands?

    [url=http://tromboneforum.org/index.php?topic=83215.msg1193962#msg1193962]Quote from: chipolah on May 16, 2017, 02:09PM[/url]Yes...  That's the one.  It's more heavy-duty than the K&M stand.  The legs will open up more than the photo and the top is adjustable.  The stand is chrome.

    Wessex does not have a dealer in Bulgaria or in any of the Balkan countries.  Wessex sells on line instead of through dealers to keep the prices down.

    I did a web search for that stand...nothing under $100, about $80 of which was shipping from China.

    Am I missing something?

    S.
    by ttf_sabutin
    Thu Apr 27, 2017 4:39 pm
    Forum: TTF Archives / TTF Archives / Horns, Gear, and Equipment / Accessories
    Topic: Suggestions on trombone stands?
    Replies: 73
    Views: 24688

    Suggestions on trombone stands?

    [url=http://tromboneforum.org/index.php?topic=83215.msg1191378#msg1191378]Quote from: Big Daddy K on Apr 27, 2017, 09:58AM[/url]BIG OL' HONKIN' shout-out to the folks at Hamilton Stands!
    I emailed them asking about purchasing a top cap and a couple of feet for my 70's vintage trombone stand. The replied saying they'd ship the items out to me AT NO CHARGE. Well, here's what came in today's mail:
    Top Cap
    Bell Support
    4 Feet
    All for FREE!

    Yeah...but...

    My several month old Hamilton's screw tighteners are already pretty well worn out and the cup suppoprt for the bell that's supposed to be adjustable never worked.

    A large piece of crap, basically. I'm using it...using tape to set the lengths...but REALLY!!!

    They probably sent you and Posaunus extra feet because they can't read very well.

    Sorry...I get pissed off when things that I pay for don't work. If I played like they are now making trombone stands I'd be working as a fry cook now.

    S.
    by ttf_sabutin
    Thu Apr 20, 2017 9:45 pm
    Forum: TTF Archives / TTF Archives / Horns, Gear, and Equipment / Accessories
    Topic: Suggestions on trombone stands?
    Replies: 73
    Views: 24688

    Suggestions on trombone stands?

    [url=http://tromboneforum.org/index.php?topic=83215.msg1065535#msg1065535]Quote from: SilverBone on Mar 18, 2015, 06:36PM[/url]Does that depend on the vintage of the Hamilton stand?  I have a very old one (50+ years) that will sit flat on the floor.  But I think recent ones may not be able to do that.

    Yes.

    The new ones are crap.

    S.
    by ttf_sabutin
    Sat Mar 18, 2017 12:30 am
    Forum: TTF Archives / TTF Archives / Creation and Performance / Trombonists
    Topic: Delfeayo Marsalis
    Replies: 59
    Views: 22457

    Delfeayo Marsalis

    [url=http://tromboneforum.org/index.php?topic=84632.msg1185594#msg1185594]Quote from: Graham Martin on Mar 17, 2017, 07:15PM[/url]On comparing Miles with Louis, it should be noted that Miles once said he never played anything that Louis had not already played.

    ---snip---
    I suggest that anyone who thinks Miles was kidding should go listen to the duet that Louis did w/Fatha Hines. [url=https://youtu.be/hyb_wr40pog]Weatherbird[/url]. 1928. It is as simultaneously as free and as disciplined as anything the Miles/Herbie/Tony Williams/Ron Carter/Wayne Shorter quintet ever played. Total improvisation, total joy. The very beginning of real jazz. Pure improvisation, pure talent.

    [img]https://www.dropbox.com/s/le58bo1ggiitrhm/survivors-miles%20%2B%20Pops.jpg?dl=0[/img]

    S.
    by ttf_sabutin
    Wed Nov 25, 2015 9:16 am
    Forum: TTF Archives / TTF Archives / Creation and Performance / The Healthy Trombonsit
    Topic: Chapstick
    Replies: 45
    Views: 164950

    Chapstick

    [url=http://tromboneforum.org/index.php?topic=87731.msg1107768#msg1107768]Quote from: harrison.t.reed on Nov 25, 2015, 05:36AM[/url]Burts Bees original peppermint. No SPF. It's like a subtle, soothing zephyr being pumped out of a thousand baby angels and across your face from the lofty reaches of heaven.

    Yup.

    Me too.

    Stay away from the gummy stuff. Cakes up your lips. This is very natural and rinses away w/water. If it ain't water soluble...don't use it.

    S.
    by ttf_sabutin
    Sat May 13, 2017 9:48 am
    Forum: TTF Archives / TTF Archives / Horns, Gear, and Equipment / Instruments
    Topic: My visit with Roy Lawler
    Replies: 216
    Views: 470674

    My visit with Roy Lawler

    [url=http://tromboneforum.org/index.php?topic=88843.msg1193557#msg1193557]Quote from: The Sheriff on May 13, 2017, 06:13AM[/url]That made me laugh. As great a player as you are Sam, I find it hard to believe that your chops would get confused! Seriously though, I know what you mean, but I suspect they'd be delightfully confused, if only for a while. [img]http://tromboneforum.org/Smileys/otjf/wink.gif[/img]

    You have no idea...

    It's the doubling thing, I think. I play so many rims on a regular basis...from 12C right on down to large tuba...that unless I am playing the same m'pce and performing the same general function (Idiomatically and in terms of volumes and ranges) day after day after day, whatever my balance may be on a gig can be drastically confused by messing around with other m'pces. I save that for the occasional no-pressure rehearsal and of course practicing at home.

    So it goes...

    S.
    by ttf_sabutin
    Fri May 12, 2017 8:48 am
    Forum: TTF Archives / TTF Archives / Horns, Gear, and Equipment / Instruments
    Topic: My visit with Roy Lawler
    Replies: 216
    Views: 470674

    My visit with Roy Lawler

    [url=http://tromboneforum.org/index.php?topic=88843.msg1193440#msg1193440]Quote from: DaveAshley on Yesterday at 07:58 AM[/url]
    ---snip---


    Dave...

    When you're going to meet Alex, let me know. I work with him a lot and he sounds even better now that he's playing the Lawler. I am interested in the horns. We work together but I have never had a chance to actually play his Lawler stuff because I don't like to confuse my chops on a gig. I'd like to join you.

    Later...

    Sam

    P.S. Alex has all of my contact info.
    by ttf_sabutin
    Fri Jan 08, 2016 11:31 am
    Forum: TTF Archives / TTF Archives / Horns, Gear, and Equipment / Instruments
    Topic: My visit with Roy Lawler
    Replies: 216
    Views: 470674

    My visit with Roy Lawler

    [url=http://tromboneforum.org/index.php?topic=88843.msg1115071#msg1115071]Quote from: BMadsen on Jan 08, 2016, 08:31AM[/url]I know Ray - we've played together before. Been awhile. I'll reach out to him.

    Thanks!


    Count me in, please. He's in Brooklyn? You live in New Jersey?? I'll drive.

    S.
    by ttf_sabutin
    Wed Nov 25, 2015 9:19 am
    Forum: TTF Archives / TTF Archives / Teaching & Learning / Pedagogy
    Topic: What is it, then, that makes a good trombonist exceptional?
    Replies: 45
    Views: 98006

    What is it, then, that makes a good trombonist exceptional?

    [url=http://tromboneforum.org/index.php?topic=89037.msg1107757#msg1107757]Quote from: harrison.t.reed on Nov 25, 2015, 04:46AM[/url]None of these quotes have been particularly awe inspiring, no offense. They have sprouted a ton of great threads on the forum though, so I give you props for the good conversation pieces, Patrick!

    To me, the exceptional trombonists are the ones who are playing the gigs. A super talented trombonist at a music college who has never played one paid gig is not exceptional. The guy or gal who made their own website (putting themselves out there) and is on a CD or is somehow always in the horn line, however, IS exceptional.

    Let's face it - Playing most brass instruments is easy. The trombone is not a difficult instrument by any means. I'm not impressed by people who have all the range or all the chops (as the article discusses above), because talented players are coming out of the woodwork. The more I hear people try to do things to "show off" while "warming up", the easier it is to realize that they are bozos. If the hypothetical "pro trombonist" is worrying about what technical things they need to do to be exceptional, it's time to hang it up. F1 - F5, ppp - FFFF, can read and play in any style convincingly, is always in…
    by ttf_sabutin
    Sat Mar 05, 2016 10:51 am
    Forum: TTF Archives / TTF Archives / Town Hall / Comments and Suggestions
    Topic: Announcing: TromboneChat
    Replies: 129
    Views: 257896

    Announcing: TromboneChat

    [url=http://tromboneforum.org/index.php?topic=91116.msg1125625#msg1125625]Quote from: RedHotMama on Mar 05, 2016, 07:25AM[/url]We have had no indication whatsoever that RLB will not continue to support this site.

    Had a quick peek at the new one. I hate the look of it. It's just like a thousand other fora.

    It's like The Open Horn used to be, and that didn't last long.

    This - The Trombone Forum - is the only forum I know which looks good. It looks different and I like it.

    I won't be moving over.

    However, I hope it goes well for you all, whoever you are and whatever you want from it.

    The Open Horn served its purpose. When TTF opened up from the heavily censored Richard Human regime...and stayed that way...there was no need to continue The Open Horn. Too much trouble for a busy pro to manage. So it goes. This new one? TTF is functioning very well now. As long as it remains functioning there is really no practical reason to start another one. But...and it is a big but...unless RLB somehow allows this site to be duplicated in case of emergency (and "emergencies" happen to us all, eventually), a new site is…
    by ttf_sabutin
    Sat May 28, 2016 5:17 am
    Forum: TTF Archives / TTF Archives / Creation and Performance / The Business of Music
    Topic: A Pathetic Living at the Symphony?
    Replies: 175
    Views: 409249

    A Pathetic Living at the Symphony?

    [url=http://tromboneforum.org/index.php?topic=92651.msg1138365#msg1138365]Quote from: sonicsilver on May 28, 2016, 04:32AM[/url]Speaking of costs, I heard a documentary on the radio a little while ago. It was about the financial difficulties of an orchestra in the British Isles. They had a budget deficit of about £300k.

    Apart from the playing members of the orchestra, they had 19 members of administrative staff. I couldn't think what all these workers might be doing. To run an orchestra you would need roughly the following

    2 porters
    1 secretary
    1 accountant
    2 orchestral managers
    1 marketing/advertising person
    1 part-time IT person
    1 librarian
    1 part-time chief executive

    That's only 9 people (8+two halves). What are the other 10 doing? Assuming those extra 10 get around £25-30k/annum salary, that represents the budget deficit. Problem solved.


    Yup. They're called "Arts Administrators" and most of them are about as useful as ticks on the backside of a moose. The whole culture is being bureaucratized by parasites. They suck the money up and try to run the artists without a clue about the importance of the product or the process through which  artists actually create art or craftspeople produce craft. Mao Zedong's "Cultural Revolution…
    by ttf_sabutin
    Tue May 17, 2016 9:37 am
    Forum: TTF Archives / TTF Archives / Creation and Performance / The Business of Music
    Topic: A Pathetic Living at the Symphony?
    Replies: 175
    Views: 409249

    A Pathetic Living at the Symphony?

    [url=http://tromboneforum.org/index.php?topic=92651.msg1136537#msg1136537]Quote from: harrison.t.reed on May 16, 2016, 08:11PM[/url]---snip---The stuff you said about endurance issued getting you fired from a BQ or salsa band also means you wouldn't have been hired in the first place so that's moot.
    No, it is not moot. I have.,..over the course of a long career...been hired for many jobs for which I was not really qualified. Sometimes I was almost qualified and the people who hired me:

    A-Knew I was serious about the music

    and

    B-Thought maybe I'd be able to learn how to be qualified fairly quickly.

    Others? Not so much. Bet on it. I almost never turn down a gig because i don't know whether I'm good enough to play it because I haved fooled myself so often, but when I am fairly sure I'm not qualified? Like say a bass trombone, principal trombone or tuba gig in a fine orchestra or recreating a bunch of Rosolino solos? (A style that I am quite certain I will never master w/out changing everything about the way I play the horn.) I just say no and recommend someone.

    QuoteYou can't be stressed over a…
    by ttf_sabutin
    Mon May 16, 2016 4:24 pm
    Forum: TTF Archives / TTF Archives / Creation and Performance / The Business of Music
    Topic: A Pathetic Living at the Symphony?
    Replies: 175
    Views: 409249

    A Pathetic Living at the Symphony?

    [url=http://tromboneforum.org/index.php?topic=92651.msg1136441#msg1136441]Quote from: harrison.t.reed on May 16, 2016, 09:04AM[/url]---snip---

    I'd wager that you don't get very stressed out over your gigs, Sam, because you're a pro.

    ---snip---
    I'll tell you what, Harrison. You would lose that bet. I get "stressed out"...at least to some degree...because I am a pro. As Joe Shepley...recently passed away but one of the busiest NYC studio lead trumpet players through the '60s, '70s and beyond...once said to me, "You're only as good as your last note." Truer words were never spoken. Now...some gigs (the ones I most enjoy and the ones on which I have based a great deal of my career) are less stressful in the "perfection" sense, but they require success in other ways.

    Jazz gigs? Can't make the changes? Don't understand that particular style? Can't make the tempos? Don't know the repertoire? (A repertoire potentially so vast that no one knows it all.) Not enough endurance to play 2 or 3 good sets of quartet or quintet music? Yer outta here!!!

    Big band work? Can't blend? Don't sightread fairly well? Not enough endurance for lead playing? Not enough volume and control…
    by ttf_sabutin
    Mon May 16, 2016 8:54 am
    Forum: TTF Archives / TTF Archives / Creation and Performance / The Business of Music
    Topic: A Pathetic Living at the Symphony?
    Replies: 175
    Views: 409249

    A Pathetic Living at the Symphony?

    [url=http://tromboneforum.org/index.php?topic=92651.msg1136432#msg1136432]Quote from: harrison.t.reed on May 16, 2016, 08:29AM[/url]But you're forgetting that working as a musician on a salary is not really work. How many actual hours are put in at the symphony for those $78,000. And for that matter what is the average salary for a 40 hr work week? I'm not having a go. I just know that if you already practice whether you get paid or not to do so, and 95% of all the music you'll ever play comes on the Cherry orchestra part disc, and you already know all of the challenging licks ... how is that realllly work? $78,000 seems fair for not really having heavy hours and basically just maintaining a skillset based around a finite number of challenging pieces.

    I seriously would like to know the weekly hours for that position.

    ---snip---
    The problem is..."hours" need to be multiplied by "stress level" to come up with an adequate salary, and the emphasis on nearly perfect playing that exists in even regional orchestras creates emotional stress...for brass players particularly...that is nearly unquantifiable.

    S.
    by ttf_sabutin
    Wed Jun 29, 2016 9:23 am
    Forum: TTF Archives / TTF Archives / Creation and Performance / Trombonists
    Topic: Trombone players with great Articulations
    Replies: 59
    Views: 169565

    Trombone players with great Articulations

    [url=http://tromboneforum.org/index.php?topic=93006.msg1143248#msg1143248]Quote from: sonicsilver on Jun 29, 2016, 08:31AM[/url]Hmmmm articulation. It's do do with the manner in which you start a note and how you get from one note to the next. Sound envelope (dynamic level within the note) is very important. I agree with Sam that the slide can hinder us but overall, I think it offers more articulation possibilities than hindrances.

    ---snip---
    I wasn't really saying that it is a "hindrance," SS. It makes certain articulation approaches more difficult and other ones easier. So it goes. Overall? I guess it's a wash.

    Someone at a clinic once asked Jimmy Knepper if he tried to make his horn sound more like a trumpet or a french horn. He took a typically laconic Knepperian pause and then said "Well...I try to make it sound like a trombone."

    That goes for articulations as well.

    S.
    by ttf_sabutin
    Wed Jun 29, 2016 3:20 am
    Forum: TTF Archives / TTF Archives / Creation and Performance / Trombonists
    Topic: Trombone players with great Articulations
    Replies: 59
    Views: 169565

    Trombone players with great Articulations

    OK...let's get real. Let's define the way that we are using the word "articulation" before we go any further here.

    [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Articulation_(music)]Wikipedia has a fairly good one[/url]:

    QuoteIn music, articulation refers to the direction or performance technique which affects the transition or continuity on a single note or between multiple notes or sounds.
    Now let's talk about the slide trombone.

    What is the operative word...the defining word...in that name?

    "Slide"

    We have so many possibilities for affecting "the transition or continuity on a single note or between multiple notes or sounds" that we cannot even agree about who does what well. Was Willie Dennis...who developed a rapid jazz improvisation technique that used almost almost no tongue at all, just across the grain slurs..."articulating?" You could hear and understand the lines he was playing, right? Guess so. In Brad Edwards'a wonderful [url=http://www.bonezone.org/_Main/books/books_index.htm]Lip Slur Melodies books[/url]...Rochut-like melodies which are constructed so that they can be played very musically (another word that needs definition here) entirely without the use of the tongue…
    by ttf_sabutin
    Wed Jun 01, 2016 8:44 pm
    Forum: TTF Archives / TTF Archives / Creation and Performance / Trombonists
    Topic: Trombone players with great Articulations
    Replies: 59
    Views: 169565

    Trombone players with great Articulations

    J.J. Johnson (and his acolytes...especially Curtis Fuller and Slide Hampton)

    Urbie Green

    Tommy Dorsey

    Jack Teagarden

    Teagarden was so good you didn't even know if he was articulating.

    Dorsey pretty much invented...or so I have been told by people who were there at the time...the "legato" tongue which is now mainstream in the orchestral world. Before Dorsey? The so-called "portamento" style...much more vocalistic.

    Urbie? Where did his across the grain slurs end and his articulations begin? Damned if I know.

    J.J.? He found a way to tongue...and coordinate that tonguing with the slide...that made him sound like Clifford Brown down an octave or so.

    S.

    P.S. I leave out the doodle tongue masters because they need a mic to get over...it works, but it's essentially electronic music.

    P.P.S. Then there's Frank Rosolino...beyond category, as Duke Ellington used to say. Like Clark Terry...one of a kind technically. Also Jimmy Knepper. He didn't so much "articulate" as he used fantastic slide technique...including the mastery of extended positions right up past the 8th partial...equally fantastic flexibility (and the use of the tongue only when all else failed) to be able to play just about everything…
    by ttf_sabutin
    Thu Sep 22, 2016 8:24 am
    Forum: TTF Archives / TTF Archives / Creation and Performance / The Healthy Trombonsit
    Topic: The development of a doubler
    Replies: 21
    Views: 7276

    The development of a doubler

    If you want to seriously double and you have not been doing so since before you had any idea of what you are doing...which was my case a a doubler on tenor tbn. and tuba from 3rd grade right up through 4 years of college ( [img]http://tromboneforum.org/Smileys/otjf/amazed.gif[/img] [img]http://tromboneforum.org/Smileys/otjf/amazed.gif[/img] [img]http://tromboneforum.org/Smileys/otjf/amazed.gif[/img] [img]http://tromboneforum.org/Smileys/otjf/dontknow.gif[/img]  [img]http://tromboneforum.org/Smileys/otjf/dontknow.gif[/img])...you need to understand the differences in the way you play the instruments. And I mean the way you play them.

    Physically.

    Air. Quantity and how it is focused.
    …
    by ttf_sabutin
    Sat Oct 15, 2016 10:52 am
    Forum: TTF Archives / TTF Archives / Creation and Performance / The Business of Music
    Topic: How good should you be by 11th grade to do well with a music career.
    Replies: 30
    Views: 107701

    How good should you be by 11th grade to do well with a music career.

    [url=http://tromboneforum.org/index.php?topic=95544.msg1160923#msg1160923]Quote from: Quixotik on Oct 15, 2016, 08:06AM[/url]I know this is a pretty vague vague question, but I want to do music as a career, but I don't want to deal with financial problems. Currently in 11th grade, I got 1st chair in all-state, but I don't feel that I could be good enough for a career in music. Anyone that does music as a career, how good were you in 11th grade? The people in all-state weren't as good as I expected, maybe it's just the state I'm from.

    As a general rule...and the exceptions above serve to prove this rule...I believe that you should be consistently in the upper echelon of players in every level through which you pass on the way to a professional career. You got 1st chair in All-State in 11th grade? You're fine so far. Next level? College, probably. Choose a good school (in an area that has a great deal of professional activity if possible), and gauge yourself according to your competition. If by the end of your first year you aren't among the best players in that class, either redouble your efforts the next year and/or begin thinking about some sort of safety net. If after two years you are…
    by ttf_sabutin
    Tue Nov 29, 2016 12:14 pm
    Forum: TTF Archives / TTF Archives / Teaching & Learning / Pedagogy
    Topic: Tonguing
    Replies: 8
    Views: 4059

    Tonguing

    [url=http://tromboneforum.org/index.php?topic=96362.msg1167949#msg1167949]Quote from: usafband1976 on Nov 29, 2016, 08:12AM[/url]Sam:  As per usual, you helped me.  You are absolutely right,  I've grown a bit wary of "how to" and "where to" philosophies of teaching.  The reason I asked was because one of my heroes, Jay Friedman, does tongue between his teeth and he told me Bud Herseth did, also.  It does work for me, but I am not Jay Friedman!  Past teachers steadfastly preached against tonguing between the teeth.  Jay and I practiced spitting spit balls in his living room!  BYW, what a kind, humble, and generous gent!  And, he is his own man . . .

    I cannot tell you how many times older...non-college misedumacated...brass players used the idea "like spitting a watermelon seed out of your mouth" to describe how to tongue.

    Glad to have been of help.

    S.
    by ttf_sabutin
    Sat Nov 26, 2016 9:39 am
    Forum: TTF Archives / TTF Archives / Teaching & Learning / Pedagogy
    Topic: Tonguing
    Replies: 8
    Views: 4059

    Tonguing

    [url=http://tromboneforum.org/index.php?topic=96362.msg1167275#msg1167275]Quote from: usafband1976 on Nov 25, 2016, 03:05PM[/url]What are your thoughts about any tonguing between the teeth excepting pedal tones?

    "Tonguing between the teeth" has a great deal to do with how large one's teeth are and the arch(es) of the tongue, setting(s) of the jaw and relative mass(es) of the lips that are necessary for any given player to play any given note at any given volume. Big ol' horse teeth are easy to consistently tongue behind, but smaller ones often pose a problem.

    Solution?

    Sure.

    Don't listen to people who tell you "where" to put your tongue. Experiment. Observe yourself. What works best for you is all you need to know.

    This is the essence of the way that Carmine Caruso taught.

    Deductive rather than inductive reasoning.

    When Carmine gave every student his "Six Notes" exercise, he not only didn't tell them how to play it in a physical manner, he totally refused to answer questions on that level. When it began to sound good, the student's tongue was doing its job(s) where it needed to do them to make it sound good. End of chapter. Next…
    by ttf_sabutin
    Sun Dec 25, 2016 10:47 am
    Forum: TTF Archives / TTF Archives / Teaching & Learning / Pedagogy
    Topic: The Dark Ages of Trumpet Pedagogy -- Thoughts?
    Replies: 41
    Views: 15679

    The Dark Ages of Trumpet Pedagogy -- Thoughts?

    I personally never try to aim at the back wall. I play totally by feel, not by "sound" per se. If my note/volume/blow matches up to the resistance of the equipment, there is a balanced feel at the lips. If the air/support etc. is not strong enough there is a weak, flappy feeling at the lips and if it is too strong there is a stiff, overblown, spread feeling. I wear (easily adjustable) earplugs for almost all of the work that I do because most of the time I either have trumpets playing behind me, a rhythm section that is playing quite percussively, amplified sounds usually badly balanced by an ignorant sound man or some ungodly combination of the three. When my ears are not feeling stressed, I adjust the plugs. When I feel stress, I push them in. But I will say this about "the back wall." When I am feeling well balanced at the chops and I do hear the notes coming off the back wall of a good room at say mf or above, I know I'm playing well and I have found well-matched and projecting equipment. Well matched to itself and well matched to my own playing.

    That's my final equipment test.

    Balance produces "projection."

    It does for me, anyway.

    Case in point:

    When I switched from a wonderful straight…