Intonation and mouthpiece size for small bore instrument

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Sat Apr 15, 2017 10:59 am

I've recently been playing a small bore instrument for the first time in more than 20 years, with most of the intervening time spent playing an 88h with a 4.5AL. I found that with a 6.5 size mouthpiece (stork T1), there were a few harmonics that were really out of tune. This effect seems to have gone away with a smaller piece - a Ferguson 11.

Is this due to my technique? A lack of strength in my embrochure, or something else? I'm quite happy with the Ferguson, but interested in why I couldn't play in tune with the stork.

ttf_sabutin · Post by **ttf_sabutin** » Sat Apr 15, 2017 2:52 pm

Different m'pces lock up better with:

!-Different trombone models

2-Different embouchures

and the always popular...

3-Different combinations of m'pce and embouchure

Plus...some horns are just out of tune.

Try some other m'pces.

What horn are you playing?

S.

ttf_BostonChops · Post by **ttf_BostonChops** » Sat Apr 15, 2017 5:19 pm

It's a 2B from the early 50s. It had a shortened tuning slide receiver, inner slide and leadpipe replacement before I got hold of it, so it might be the horn. I also recently acquired a late 60s 79h that plays very well with the T1, so I doubt that it's purely the mouthpiece not working with my face.

I recently took a complete break from playing of almost 5 years, having played only intermittently for a year or two before that. Currently working to get my chops back, but it's tough with a lack of time and unfamiliar instruments.

ttf_TromboneMonkey · Post by **ttf_TromboneMonkey** » Sat Apr 15, 2017 5:48 pm

Some players sound great on the 2b/6.5 combo but I could never make it work. Get a shallower piece in the same size but more importantly one with an appropriate backbore. Doug's MT 100 C 2 would be ideal.

A Hammond S cup could also work. Or a Warburton 9m (I have one if you want it). Or a Shires 11c (yes an 11c). See if one of those works.

ttf_vegasbound · Post by **ttf_vegasbound** » Sun Apr 16, 2017 1:41 am

Quote from: BostonChops on Apr 15, 2017, 05:19PMIt's a 2B from the early 50s. It had a shortened tuning slide receiver, inner slide and leadpipe replacement before I got hold of it, so it might be the horn. I also recently acquired a late 60s 79h that plays very well with the T1, so I doubt that it's purely the mouthpiece not working with my face.

I recently took a complete break from playing of almost 5 years, having played only intermittently for a year or two before that. Currently working to get my chops back, but it's tough with a lack of time and unfamiliar instruments.

This could explain part of your problem, a 5 year break and not currenlty having a lot of practice time!

Find a mouthpiece you like the fel of, have a couple of lessons, because after a 5 year break what you think your doing and what may be actualy happening are 2 different things and then practice!

ttf_BostonChops · Post by **ttf_BostonChops** » Sun Apr 16, 2017 7:32 am

Thanks for all the advice. I'm sure that a decent practice regime will help me in all areas - currently I'm on a strict diet of long tones and lip slurs.

I'm enjoying playing the Ferguson 11 with my 2B, and would recommend it based on my limited experience of pieces like this. Since I'm finding it comfortable, and I have no tuning problems with this combination, I'm not planning on experiments in this area.

The stork T1 plays perfectly in tune on the medium bore 79h, even with my lack of strength and endurance. I'm not such a fan of the feel of the rim on this piece, but think I'll stick with it until my chops come back to a decent extent.

ttf_greenbean · Post by **ttf_greenbean** » Sun Apr 16, 2017 7:50 am

The T1 is a great mouthpiece!

ttf_sabutin · Post by **ttf_sabutin** » Sun Apr 16, 2017 8:34 am

Quote from: BostonChops on Apr 15, 2017, 05:19PMIt's a 2B from the early 50s. It had a shortened tuning slide receiver, inner slide and leadpipe replacement before I got hold of it, so it might be the horn. I also recently acquired a late 60s 79h that plays very well with the T1, so I doubt that it's purely the mouthpiece not working with my face.

I recently took a complete break from playing of almost 5 years, having played only intermittently for a year or two before that. Currently working to get my chops back, but it's tough with a lack of time and unfamiliar instruments.

It's probably the 2B. Messing w/classic designs is a crapshoot at best.

And...the Stork T1 is a 6.5-ish m'pce. A little tighter at the throat than a small shank Bach 6.5AL, I believe, more like a 6.5A. I only know of one fine trombonist who plays a m'pce that big on a 2B and gets good results on it...Gary Valente, who is unlike any other trombonist in the world. However, the 78H/79H horns were played by many fine trombonists with 6.5-ish m'pces. The small shank 6.5AL was the equipment that Gordon Pulis used for quite a while on 78H/79H horns as principal trombonist of the NY Phil, and John Mosca, the long-time lead player of the Vanguard Band plays a 79H with a 6.5AL. Jimmy Knepper played a similar-sized horn, a Bach 36 w/a 42 bell, w/a 6.5AL as well. Off the top of my head I know of no other really good players playing that size of m'pce on sub-.525 horns in NYC except Art Baron on a .508, although I'm sure that there must be some. When I came up in NYC at least 6 or more good trombonists from my generation were playing .508-ish horns w/ 6.5ALs, and all of them except Art eventually downsized their m'pce in some respect. Maybe Ed Neumeister is still using one, too, and Jim Pugh went back to larger rims some years back. When a general trend happens amoungst a broad sampling of players, there's usually a good reason.

S.

P.S. Try a good, stock 2B w/that m'pce. I'll bet the intonation problems aren't there, at least not to the same degree.

ttf_BostonChops · Post by **ttf_BostonChops** » Mon Apr 17, 2017 7:57 am

Thanks Sam,

I've had Osmun take a look at it, and it plays better after they removed the Saturn water key that had been put on it (seems strange to me, but there you go). I'm planning on getting a brass ark replica of the original leadpipe put in, and hopefully that will put it into a near original condition. I'll try to have a blow on a different 2B with the T1 at some point, although I'm pretty happy with the Ferguson 11. I'm generally more comfortable with a larger rim, and think that maybe the T1 was just too deep for me. Whatever issues my current lack of practice are causing, I'm certainly not a Gary Valente type of player.

ttf_ntap · Post by **ttf_ntap** » Mon Apr 17, 2017 9:02 am

Quote from: sabutin on Apr 16, 2017, 08:34AMOff the top of my head I know of no other reall good players playing that size of m'pce on sub-.525 horns in NYC except Art Baron on a .508,

I actually took Art's horn to Scott Sweeney a few years ago get the bore of the slide measured and it's something like a .513 or .515. Some sort of Peppy magic!

Thought I'd throw that in there

ttf_sabutin · Post by **ttf_sabutin** » Mon Apr 17, 2017 9:46 am

Quote from: BostonChops on Apr 17, 2017, 07:57AM
---snip---

I'm certainly not a Gary Valente type of player.
That's OK...neither is anyone else that I've ever heard.

S.

ttf_sabutin · Post by **ttf_sabutin** » Mon Apr 17, 2017 9:46 am

Quote from: BostonChops on Apr 17, 2017, 07:57AM
---snip---

I'm certainly not a Gary Valente type of player.
That's OK...neither is anyone else that I've ever heard.

S.