TromboneChat

Just drilled my 11C throat, honeymoon season, but it does play really well. Went up to a "A" drill. Tiny step but I like it.

Thoughts on drilling?

It used to be common in my neck of the woods in the 80's when 11C's could be so obviously different from one another. We used to get the backbore reamed and the shoulder smoothed a little. There was one tech in particular who was very good at this fix, and new exactly when to stop. This was on a 2B, but it was common for 6H players who used 12C's as well.

I play one that my friend had modified when he was on the road with Buddy Morrow. I think it was a drill-job, but I'm not 100% sure. Some guy in New York who was known for it. It now reads Mount Vernon 11C*, with the asterisk to indicate the modification. I'm a huge fan of MV 11C's, and this one is just slightly my favorite above my #2 favorite.

From talking to local guys here in LA, they say Bach mpc's should be drilled. Everyone has an opinion, but I guess in some scenes .230 throat is to small. I know the megatone with Bach is .234 which is what I have in mine. I see other makers have .234 throats and up but with design there has to be a purpose/reasoning. For what it is, if you have a 11C or 7C, drilling up a size is beneficial. Mileage may vary if you drill too much...

The legend goes that old Vincent Bach expected people to drill out their mouthpiece...

Why drill out and possibly ruin a Bach 11C when you can buy a Rath S11 MN?

Fidbone wrote: ↑Fri Mar 08, 2019 2:12 am Why drill out and possibly ruin a Bach 11C when you can buy a Rath S11 MN?

Or a Denis Wick 12CS?

Or even a Schilke 47B?

Either, in my view, is a fine replacement for a Bach 11C with a larger throat.

An 11C opened with a 15/64" drill bit produces the unique open 11C people are looking for. This modification was played by Watrous amount others. Using the drill produces a different shapes throat than a lather throat to that size. The microscopic flat spot produced by the drill bit is key to the magic in that mouthpiece, and doesn't exist in pieces manufactured to that size.

The magic can't be literally microscopic. My apologies if you were using the term colloquially but in case not: the water vaopour and gunk that come out of your mouth are going to fill in anything like that basically immediately. I could possibly see the asymetrical result or in-between sizes being somewhat accountable for the magic but certainly both are replicable (easily, actually at the present moment with a CNC lathe). They are quite precise.

The placebo effect is far more potent than that though and so determining whether or not the difference can be observed (even if it requires a microscope) is sort of inconsequential in the sense that if it works for you it will work. In other words, the distinction between getting a piece already made to the specs you like vs. getting one too small and drilling might be nominal (or perhaps even deleterious in the case of the latter if you go 'too far') but if the effective difference is that your mind decides that the latter is better - then the latter is going to be overwhelmingly a better choice.

Ok, if you say so. But it was my friend, now decrased, Scott Laskey, who formulated the idea. No way is a drilled throat going to be the same shape as a lather one. And yes, microscopic was a coloquilism.

ssking2b wrote: ↑Thu Mar 21, 2019 2:32 pm Ok, if you say so. But it was my friend, now decrased, Scott Laskey, who formulated the idea. No way is a drilled throat going to be the same shape as a lather one. And yes, microscopic was a coloquilism.

I'm agreeing with your assessment that it's possible that some magic might exist in the sizing, just disagreeing on the level that I don't believe it to be inimitable.

It's not inimitable at all, just not achieved by typical latheing. Spell check has punished me in my previous post. Sorry!

BTW the 2 11C pieces I have also were skeletonized. That also effects how they play. I have tried other pieces with throats manufactured to 15/64 size, and none of them worked as well for me as my altered 11Cs.

Just drilled my Conn 6 1/2 AL and feathered the leading edge. Made a huge difference, especially in trigger range.

ssking2b wrote: ↑Wed Mar 13, 2019 6:07 am An 11C opened with a 15/64" drill bit produces the unique open 11C people are looking for. This modification was played by Watrous amount others. Using the drill produces a different shapes throat than a lather throat to that size. The microscopic flat spot produced by the drill bit is key to the magic in that mouthpiece, and doesn't exist in pieces manufactured to that size.

Doesn't the stock 11C already have a "flat spot" as you call it? We're actually talking about slightly elongating the cylindrical part right? In any case, it seems to me a better tool for this than a drill bit would be a straight fluted reamer. (Not the tapered one - is that what you mean by "lather"?). I once had this done with a drill bit, and it came back with very visible cork-screw marks. This was done by a VERY reputable shop in the East Coast so I'm not necessarily questioning the skill of the tech. And it did NOT play well at all - uneven resistance, weird intonation etc. Some time later I had the same job done at another shop with a straight reamer (I called ahead of time to make sure), and it is a night-and-day difference!

Posaunus wrote: ↑Fri Mar 08, 2019 1:22 pm

Fidbone wrote: ↑Fri Mar 08, 2019 2:12 am Why drill out and possibly ruin a Bach 11C when you can buy a Rath S11 MN?

Or a Denis Wick 12CS?

Or even a Schilke 47B?

Either, in my view, is a fine replacement for a Bach 11C with a larger throat.

Second the Schilke 47B. Larger throat than a Schilke 47, lets you get more air into the horn. I currently play a Bach 6 3/4C, and I'm considering having the throat drilled to 47B specs.

I tried the Griego Steve Weist, which is based on the 47B. Throat is too tight. Which is why I have it listed in the classifieds.

What happens if you go too far when drilling out a mouthpiece? I've got my Bach 5GS small shank enlarged to .270 with an eased throat and feathered shank. I'm really liking it. I'm tempted to go one more drill size up to .276, but am afraid of ruining it.

I have drilled many mouthpieces out to 15/64 (including my Bach 11c) and was very happy with the results. Wish I had done this 30 years ago.

Isn't the venturi / throat traditionally drilled anyway during production? And the throat is reamed out?

Matt K wrote: ↑Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:53 am The magic can't be literally microscopic. My apologies if you were using the term colloquially but in case not: the water vaopour and gunk that come out of your mouth are going to fill in anything like that basically immediately.

So the factory backbore has some kind of magical property that prevents water vapor and gunk from sticking to it and reducing the factory diameter by a similar amount?

According to the Bach catalog the standard throat size is .230, which does often feel too small. 15/64 is about .234 and would probably be an improvement. I wouldn't go much bigger than that. A drill is probably going to cut a little oversize to .235 or .236

I'm giggling at these contributors who claim to have drilled out their mouthpieces. Doug touched on an issue in the previous post, but the problem can be much more pronounced than he suggested.

There is an inherent problem with "drilling" the throat of almost any mouthpiece. That problem is drill CHATTER. Drill chatter results in a larger diameter and can be caused by the straightness of the drilling machine, the drill bit itself or the angle of the mouthpiece while it is being drilled.

This was first demonstrated to me as a teenager when I was waiting at Bob Kasprowicz's shop just outside of Reading, PA. As I was standing there, a customer came in to pick up his trombone. The customer started talking about how he had drilled out his mouthpiece. However, his altered mouthpiece did not play like his friend's mouthpiece which had supposedly been drilled to the same size. Bob Kasprowicz asked the customer what size throat he was aiming for. I think it was a similar size to what is being discussed here.......the A or the 15/64th drill bit. Bob measured it and told him that the throat was about 9 or 10 thousandths of an inch larger than the size he was aiming for. This was probably due to a lot of chatter in the drilling process. Bob also indicated that when he would open up mouthpiece throats, he would first get the throat within 3 or 4 thousandths (smaller) than the desired diameter and then do the final cut with the drill bit BY HAND.

If any of you are enlarging the throats of your mouthpieces, be careful. It is easy to take more metal off than you intend. As Doug has mentioned in other topics, he loves it when people start drilling their mouthpieces. It can sometimes give you a mess of a mouthpiece, which results in Doug getting more business!

I have over 100 mouthpieces. I don't need to drill them. There are many good mouthpieces among my collection, a couple of Bach 11C. They are good and maybe they will be even better drilled, but why? That's a terrible gamble. They are good as is. Last mouthpiece I tried is the Schilke Marshal Gilkes signature mouthpiece, a fantastic mouthpiece It's deep for small shank. Probably a bigger throat. It's everything I want from a mouthpiece for classical music on a small bore. The drill thing isn't for me. Good luck with the drilling!

/Tom

sungfw wrote: ↑Fri Jun 30, 2023 8:04 am

Matt K wrote: ↑Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:53 am The magic can't be literally microscopic. My apologies if you were using the term colloquially but in case not: the water vaopour and gunk that come out of your mouth are going to fill in anything like that basically immediately.

So the factory backbore has some kind of magical property that prevents water vapor and gunk from sticking to it and reducing the factory diameter by a similar amount?

I was arguing the opposite, that if the difference is only able to be viewed through a microscope that the difference would be identical. I was thinking they were suggesting being able to discern micron level differences in thickness which they later clarified was not what they meant.

In school I had my 7C throat drilled out to .250. I played that piece for years.

Drill chatter is a problem. Solved by using a drill press and clamp. Previously when I said "lather" I meant lathed.

I've opened a lot of 11C's for people, and had no issues or complaints.