Different leadpipe material

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Rusty
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Different leadpipe material

Post by Rusty » Wed Nov 07, 2018 12:53 am

Just wondering how much difference in sound and feel I’d get from changing to an identical leadpipe but in gold instead of brass?

I’ve played different sizes of the same material and can feel the difference in openness and blow, just wondering how much a change like this would be.

Horn in question is a Shires Michael Davis + .508. Shires offer his signature leadpipe in gold too.
Kbiggs
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Re: Different leadpipe material

Post by Kbiggs » Wed Nov 07, 2018 12:02 pm

A description of leadpipes with different alloys, from M/K Drawing and Bending: https://www.mkdrawing.com/alloy-options/

Your experience will vary.
I have known a great many troubles, but most of them have never happened.
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conical
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Re: Different leadpipe material

Post by conical » Thu Nov 08, 2018 3:00 am

Gold is slightly softer than silver which is slightly softer than copper. A solid 24KT gold leadpipe would probably cost $1000. I would try to get one made in Red Brass.
Rusty
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Re: Different leadpipe material

Post by Rusty » Thu Nov 08, 2018 1:14 pm

conical wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 3:00 am
Gold is slightly softer than silver which is slightly softer than copper. A solid 24KT gold leadpipe would probably cost $1000. I would try to get one made in Red Brass.
Sorry, not solid gold, this would be gold brass v yellow brass, so higher copper content.
baileyman
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Re: Different leadpipe material

Post by baileyman » Sat Nov 10, 2018 5:09 pm

Anyone notice a sound change (other than pitch) when playing a brass slide and extending it, exposing more and more brass to the air and thus relatively less nickle silver/chrome?

I have never heard anyone say so.

As a first pass, that's the same result I would expect from you pipe metal change.
Kbiggs
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Re: Different leadpipe material

Post by Kbiggs » Sat Nov 10, 2018 9:34 pm

While some people believe that leadpipe material makes no difference in sound, some do not. What we do know is that different leadpipe materials make a difference in the feel or response to the player (feedback). Perhaps the difference in feedback from the different materials is what allows the difference in sound.
Last edited by Kbiggs on Sun Nov 11, 2018 10:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
I have known a great many troubles, but most of them have never happened.
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baileyman
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Re: Different leadpipe material

Post by baileyman » Sun Nov 11, 2018 5:27 am

baileyman wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 5:09 pm
Anyone notice a sound change (other than pitch) when playing a brass slide and extending it, exposing more and more brass to the air and thus relatively less nickle silver/chrome?

I have never heard anyone say so.

As a first pass, that's the same result I would expect from you pipe metal change.
Anyone notice a difference in "the feel or response to the player (feedback)" from more and more exposed brass slide?
Rusty
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Re: Different leadpipe material

Post by Rusty » Sun Nov 11, 2018 1:49 pm

baileyman wrote:
Sun Nov 11, 2018 5:27 am
baileyman wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 5:09 pm
Anyone notice a sound change (other than pitch) when playing a brass slide and extending it, exposing more and more brass to the air and thus relatively less nickle silver/chrome?

I have never heard anyone say so.

As a first pass, that's the same result I would expect from you pipe metal change.
My slide is all nickel silver with yellow crook so I couldn’t tell you, but I’d suspect an all brass slide would respond and feel slightly different as a whole slide section, would you agree?

I’ve read enough of the various Lawler trombone threads or AR mouthpieces thread to see that most people are noticing differences in feel, response or resonance with material change of the same spec parts, but how much will actually change the sound on the other side of the bell I’m not sure.
Kbiggs
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Re: Different leadpipe material

Post by Kbiggs » Sun Nov 11, 2018 3:01 pm

baileyman, it sounds like you’re skeptical. Rightly so, if you’ve never tried different leadpipe materials. If you are content with your set-up on your horns, there’s no reason to try different leadpipe materials. But if the soft machine is working well, and there’s always been that sound in that register on that horn, then perhaps a slight change can help. Doesn’t have to be a leadpipe.

I don’t believe your example of an extended slide is analogous. Slides are usually made from all one material (except the crook in some models) and can’t be changed.* However, you can play different material outer slides (yellow or gold brass, nickel silver) on the same bell section and get a different response from the instrument.

I can’t remember whether it was Gabe Langfur or blast or Eric Edwards or whoever who said it: “Every change affects the way the horn plays.” There’s a corollary, as well: The closer you are to the lips, the greater the effect any change has on the sound and response of the instrument.



*Aside from pitch, there is a different and noticeable feel in further positions vs. closer positions. Some of this is no doubt due to the added length, the change in proportion of cylindrical (slide) vs. conical (bell section) tubing, as well as the slightly larger increase in bore from the inner to the outer slide and back again. But it may also be that some of the change in feel and sound is due to the greater proportion of outer slide material that comes into contact with the sound wave generated by the lip buzz.

Of course, in this day and age, and with the aesthetics of the current times, our job as musicians is to minimize the differences between notes so that a low C sounds the same as a low Bb, regardless of what position you play it or if you play with a valve.
I have known a great many troubles, but most of them have never happened.
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baileyman
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Re: Different leadpipe material

Post by baileyman » Sun Nov 11, 2018 8:42 pm

Kbiggs wrote:
Sun Nov 11, 2018 3:01 pm
baileyman, it sounds like you’re skeptical. Rightly so...
Well, sure, let's say the closer to the chops the more important the change.

The crook end of a brass slide with a variable length of brass tubing is much closer to the chops than the slide/bell joint, a piece of considerable consternation. Closer than the brass or nickel neckpiece. Closer than the round or double radius bend tuning slide curve. Closer than the reversed or not Bach tuning sleeve. Closer than the wide or narrow bell throat. Closer than the 7", 7.375", 7.5", 7.75" or 8" bell diameter. Closer than the French or not bead. Closer than weighted dampers attached to braces. Closer than resonant frequencies near Ab on the bell.

Now, a casual mental accounting of the stories I have heard about these things from the slide to the bell, most right here or on the predecessor TTF, indicates nearly all such discussion involves the things further out than the slide material variably exposed. It sure seems if people are so discriminating then they would surely exclaim the benefits of this or that slide or material to ameliorate the disastrous effects of x-variable length of brass on some precise pitch. But no. Not there. Where are those super-sensitive players?

Some guys do blind testing. If a guy does that and comes to a conclusion, fine. Who am I to object? Otherwise, It's a steep climb to establish something.

I'll tell you my bias. It's the shape of the air inside the horn that is the most important part of the horn. But it may be even more important how the player tunes himself to the pitch. The effect of these things is huge. The effect of silver for brass lead pipe? Meh.
Kbiggs
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Re: Different leadpipe material

Post by Kbiggs » Mon Nov 12, 2018 9:58 am

baileyman wrote:
Sun Nov 11, 2018 8:42 pm
It sure seems if people are so discriminating then they would surely exclaim the benefits of this or that slide or material to ameliorate the disastrous effects of x-variable length of brass on some precise pitch. But no. Not there. Where are those super-sensitive players?

From Noah Gladstone’s website, The Brass Ark, on his page selling leadpipes:
Vintage trombone leadpipe replicas from the collection of Noah Gladstone. Limited release of trombone rarities. Each leadpipe is handmade in house by resident brass genius, Brad Close! We use the best quality material and take extra care to produce consistent results.

Who's using our pipes? Here is a short list of the many trombonists around the world who use our leadpipes and the model and material combination they have chosen:

Jay Friedman: MV50 seamed copper
Timothy Higgins MV42 seamed nickel silver
Charlie Vernon: MV42 seamed nickel silver, NY50 seamed nickel silver
Brad Close: MV42 yellow brass, MV50 seamed copper
Harold Van Schaik: MV50 seamed copper, NY50 seamed yellow brass
Glenn Profitt: BH62 seamed copper
Jack Schatz: Holton/Schatz drawn yellow brass, 1919 Conn 8H rose brass
Noah Gladstone: MV42 seamed copper, 1919 Conn 8H Rose Brass
James Miller: MV42 seamed nickel silver
Daniel Cloutier: 1919 Conn 8H Rose Brass, Elkhart 8H seamed copper
Herb Bruce: Custom seamed copper 32H
Nick Grinder: 32H seamed copper
Daniel Innaimo: NY50 drawn yellow brass
Scott Bentall: BH62 yellow brass with Remington receiver
William Whitaker: BH62 seamed yellow brass, Holton/Schatz
Kirk Lundbeck: MV50 yellow brass
Eddie Clark: Olds GR yellow brass
The link: http://www.brassark.com/leadpipes.html

baileyman wrote:
Sun Nov 11, 2018 8:42 pm
I'll tell you my bias. It's the shape of the air inside the horn that is the most important part of the horn. But it may be even more important how the player tunes himself to the pitch. The effect of these things is huge. The effect of silver for brass lead pipe? Meh.
Have you tried them?
I have known a great many troubles, but most of them have never happened.
—Mark Twain (attributed)
doctortrombone
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Re: Different leadpipe material

Post by doctortrombone » Mon Nov 12, 2018 10:56 am

baileyman wrote:
Sun Nov 11, 2018 8:42 pm

Now, a casual mental accounting of the stories I have heard about these things from the slide to the bell, most right here or on the predecessor TTF, indicates nearly all such discussion involves the things further out than the slide material variably exposed.
It seems like you're arguing it's only exposed brass, or nickel, or whatever material, that causes a change in the sound. If that were the case, then why would there be any difference for most players between a brass slide or a nickel slide, when played in the upper range where the slide positions are generally very close? I think it's generally accepted that there is a clear difference between nickel and brass outer slides--not just in extended positions, but even if a slide in first position.

Also, as others have mentioned, in extended slide positions other changes take place. It's been mentioned that the ratio of tubular to conical tubing changes significantly. Perhaps more importantly, the effective bore of the horn changes radically. If there is no change in tone at these extended positions, you need a better explanation than just that the metal makes no difference. Several other indisputable contributors to tone have clearly changed significantly.
blast
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Re: Different leadpipe material

Post by blast » Tue Nov 13, 2018 4:56 am

Everything makes a difference.... and nothing makes a difference....
I just had Mick Rath rebuild an old red brass main tuning slide and finish it in scratch lacquer. Plays very differently to my normal lacquer red brass tuning slide. Does the finish make a difference?? OF COURSE NOT. It's just the normal variation of hand made parts... Identical parts feel and sound a tiny bit different.... change stuff and over time you will sound like you... you adjust.
Select what floats your boat, practise and enjoy.

Chris
conical
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Re: Different leadpipe material

Post by conical » Fri Nov 16, 2018 4:32 am

Rusty wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 1:14 pm
conical wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 3:00 am
Gold is slightly softer than silver which is slightly softer than copper. A solid 24KT gold leadpipe would probably cost $1000. I would try to get one made in Red Brass.
Sorry, not solid gold, this would be gold brass v yellow brass, so higher copper content.
Well, SORRY, but if you look at Mohs hardness scale you will see that pure gold and pure silver are softer than pure copper which is what I clearly wrote. "Gold brass", "yellow brass", and "red brass" are simply marketing terms for brass alloys and "gold brass" doesn't have ANY gold in it!
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JohnL
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Re: Different leadpipe material

Post by JohnL » Fri Nov 16, 2018 10:14 am

conical wrote:
Fri Nov 16, 2018 4:32 am
Rusty wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 1:14 pm
conical wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 3:00 am
Gold is slightly softer than silver which is slightly softer than copper. A solid 24KT gold leadpipe would probably cost $1000. I would try to get one made in Red Brass.
Sorry, not solid gold, this would be gold brass v yellow brass, so higher copper content.
Well, SORRY, but if you look at Mohs hardness scale you will see that pure gold and pure silver are softer than pure copper which is what I clearly wrote. "Gold brass", "yellow brass", and "red brass" are simply marketing terms for brass alloys and "gold brass" doesn't have ANY gold in it!
The OP is not correcting you, (s)he is clarifying the original post, which said:
Rusty wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 12:53 am
Just wondering how much difference in sound and feel I’d get from changing to an identical leadpipe but in gold instead of brass?
When it probably should have said:
Just wondering how much difference in sound and feel I’d get from changing to an identical leadpipe but in gold brass instead of yellow brass?
Rusty
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Re: Different leadpipe material

Post by Rusty » Fri Nov 16, 2018 6:41 pm

conical wrote:
Fri Nov 16, 2018 4:32 am
Rusty wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 1:14 pm
conical wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 3:00 am
Gold is slightly softer than silver which is slightly softer than copper. A solid 24KT gold leadpipe would probably cost $1000. I would try to get one made in Red Brass.
Sorry, not solid gold, this would be gold brass v yellow brass, so higher copper content.
Well, SORRY, but if you look at Mohs hardness scale you will see that pure gold and pure silver are softer than pure copper which is what I clearly wrote. "Gold brass", "yellow brass", and "red brass" are simply marketing terms for brass alloys and "gold brass" doesn't have ANY gold in it!
Hmm, not sure why you’re getting angry Conical, I didn’t disagree with you at all, I was just clarifying my original post as John points out too.

I’m aware of what gold brass is, but just trying to see if anyone has had any experience comparing yellow brass v gold brass leadpipes of exactly the same dimensions.

Relax! :good:
Kbiggs
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Re: Different leadpipe material

Post by Kbiggs » Fri Nov 16, 2018 8:20 pm

Rusty,

I have directly compared the M/K George Roberts pipes in yellow and gold brass. My impression was that gold brass tends to soften articulations somewhat. If you have a tendency to use a “hard” tongue or too much air to begin a note, it can be helpful.

Gold brass also tends to sound “darker.” I believe (although I have no proof) that gold brass tends to bring out or emphasize middle and lower harmonics compared to yellow brass. I also found that with gold brass, while it was a little more effort to play very loud, the sound did not “break up” as quickly as with yellow brass.

YMMV.
I have known a great many troubles, but most of them have never happened.
—Mark Twain (attributed)
Kbiggs
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Re: Different leadpipe material

Post by Kbiggs » Sat Nov 17, 2018 8:11 am

Kbiggs wrote:
Fri Nov 16, 2018 8:20 pm
Rusty,

I have directly compared the M/K George Roberts pipes in yellow and gold brass. My impression was that gold brass tends to soften articulations somewhat. If you have a tendency to use a “hard” tongue or too much air to begin a note, it can be helpful.

Gold brass also tends to sound “darker.” I believe (although I have no proof) that gold brass tends to bring out or emphasize middle and lower harmonics compared to yellow brass. I also found that with gold brass, while it was a little more effort to play very loud, the sound did not “break up” as quickly as with yellow brass.

YMMV.
Let me clarify that last sentence: I found it easier to get to a ff, fff, etc. with some edge or sizzle, but once there the sound did not “break up” as quickly as with yellow brass. Again, YMMV.

FWIW, I currently use a yellow brass M/K 50 leadpipe in my Bach 50 when I play with my gold brass bell. I want to buy a gold brass M/K 50 pipe for occasions when I play my yellow bell. I have that set up with my tenor (yellow bell w/gold leadpipe, gold bell w/yellow leadpipe).
I have known a great many troubles, but most of them have never happened.
—Mark Twain (attributed)
Pre59
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Re: Different leadpipe material

Post by Pre59 » Sat Nov 17, 2018 2:43 pm

I've have a brass and a sterling silver lead pipe for my K+H 480/88". What I do know is that when playing background music in restaurants and dinner music gigs, the s/s has softer articulations and attacks which better suits the required style, whereas the brass one feels more "all-round" being more assertive and fine for everything else.
I could do fine without the s/s and I wouldn't want to have it as my sole lead pipe. Glad that I have it though.
Rusty
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Re: Different leadpipe material

Post by Rusty » Sun Nov 18, 2018 2:35 am

Kbiggs wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 8:11 am
Kbiggs wrote:
Fri Nov 16, 2018 8:20 pm
Rusty,

I have directly compared the M/K George Roberts pipes in yellow and gold brass. My impression was that gold brass tends to soften articulations somewhat. If you have a tendency to use a “hard” tongue or too much air to begin a note, it can be helpful.

Gold brass also tends to sound “darker.” I believe (although I have no proof) that gold brass tends to bring out or emphasize middle and lower harmonics compared to yellow brass. I also found that with gold brass, while it was a little more effort to play very loud, the sound did not “break up” as quickly as with yellow brass.

YMMV.
Let me clarify that last sentence: I found it easier to get to a ff, fff, etc. with some edge or sizzle, but once there the sound did not “break up” as quickly as with yellow brass. Again, YMMV.

FWIW, I currently use a yellow brass M/K 50 leadpipe in my Bach 50 when I play with my gold brass bell. I want to buy a gold brass M/K 50 pipe for occasions when I play my yellow bell. I have that set up with my tenor (yellow bell w/gold leadpipe, gold bell w/yellow leadpipe).
Thanks for the interesting comparison. This seems to be similar to what I heard from Ben Griffen (Shires rep) about their leadpipes. He does also mention something along the lines of ‘only order a gold brass pipe if you know you like gold’, which makes me a little hesitant, but there’s enough there to make me want to try it.

He also mentioned a lot of customers pairing a gold bell with yellow tuning slide, or a yellow bell with gold TS, so there must be something about the balance that feels and sounds good.

As it turns out, the local Shires dealer can have a gold brass MD+ pipe made and sent with the next order fairly soon, so I thought I’d go ahead and buy one and see what happens. So Stay tuned I guess!
conical
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Re: Different leadpipe material

Post by conical » Mon Nov 19, 2018 3:54 pm

OK, I now see how I misunderstood your response to my post.

The 4 leadpipes I use with my B454-E Edwards basses are all B3’s of the same length and I can feel and hear significant differences between the nickel silver, sterling silver, yellow brass, and rose (or gold) brass. Having 6 different bells, 3 different hand slides, and 4 different main tuning slides (only two valve sections), I of course prefer certain combinations of these with certain leadpipes.
As far as the yellow brass leadpipe vs the rose/gold brass leadpipe, I’ve found that the yellow brass leadpipe allows for a more developed sound overall while the rose brass leadpipe provides a mellowing of the overall sound. I like both effects depending on what I need to sound like per various factors such as: the music, the hall acoustics, the ensemble, blending with the rest of the low brass section, etc.
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