TromboneChat

Hi,

I manage a 16-piece dance band in Central Pennsylvania. There are 5-6 active big bands in the area, but ours is the only one that targets ballroom dancing. The others emphasize swing and/or jazz charts that are more suitable for listening.

My questions for you other big band managers are: (1) for what types of events do you perform; (2) how much do you charge; and (3) how far are your musicians willing to travel?

I'd appreciate your feedback.

Regards,

Joel

You will probably find that the main markets for ballroom dancing nowadays don't pay very much. I play for two bands that do dances at Senior Centers. The musicians get nothing and the leader sometimes gets a few dollars gas money. Senior Centers have some really good dancers but not a lot of money for entertainment.

I used to play for another band that tried to organize dances. He went from once a month to once every 3 months and then gave up. He lost too much money. And he paid us $40 for a 3 hour gig with setup and teardown as additional time (unpaid).

How far will musicians travel? Depends on how much money is involved. For a "gas money" gig probably no more than 50 miles; less when it's bad weather. If you can negotiate for more, most will travel farther. One Little Big Band (12 pieces) traveled 250 miles. We got $250 each and he paid for a hotel room.

Sometimes you can get gigs because nobody else will play them. I remember playing a New Year's Eve party at a gay bar and playing a gay wedding (2 guys). I think the "ick factor" turned off a lot of the competition, but the clients were really nice people.

Wow, I had no idea that the deer and black bears in rugged central Pennsylvania would support 5-6 big bands!

Seriously, I've driven through lots of different parts of central Pennsylvania. Beautiful country.

When it comes to dances, the bigger the venue you can fill, the better. With a good venue and good promotion, dance big band gigs *can* pay well. But it's a whole lot of work up front to make them work.

As for pay, start by looking at your local Musician's Union standard rates. Even if you're not a union band, those rates will inform you a lot of the local economics.

Our big band plays primarily ballroom dances that we host monthly at a steady location (local VFW ballroom). We charge $10 per head and all money goes back into the band for equipment, charts, and the like. No one gets paid. We get hired a few times per year to travel somewhere else getting paid about $35 depending on the function.

Our Union local here in Calgary came up with a good compromise for rates for big band performances. For evenings, Thursday through Saturday, the regular rate for casual engagements apply, but there's an off-hours rate just for big bands for other times within the week. There are a couple of bands that do weekend matinee gigs at the lower rate, and that allows the clubs to be able to pay nearly 20 musicians and not go broke doing so. Meanwhile, evening corporate gigs are at a better rate that pays the musicians fairly. The afternoon gigs are more about bands playing the more serious concert material that they love, while the higher paying evening gigs tend to be dances, with old standards and R & B arrangements, etc. Still enjoyable, but more background music than a concert. Big bands are a tough sell for most venues because of the size of the group - I was glad to be able to play a lot of great music in a local band for many years, and the money was at least enough to pay for some gas and groceries.

Jim Scott

Someone correct me with better numbers, but I was shocked to see great LA players in big band venues taking home $20 to $50. That's about the rate for amateurs in Boston! Holy cow! They can't get scale out of a gig, so often they are classified as rehearsals, open, public, event rehearsals.

Everyone put a twenty in the kitty!

It seems like that's what it's come down to (and I do mean down). If you wanna play, there may not be any pay.

It varies a lot. If it is a dance with a more known band I get between $130 and $170. With a not known band I get $65 which is as low as I go on a dance gig.

/Tom

baileyman wrote: ↑Wed Oct 24, 2018 8:50 am Someone correct me with better numbers, but I was shocked to see great LA players in big band venues taking home $20 to $50.

There's bands out there that play for whatever gets dropped in the jar. They're usually not that good, but the customers either can't tell the difference or don't care that there is a difference between a band with guys like Andy Martin or Alex Iles and a band made up of schlubs and schmoes. I was one of those schmoes (or was I a schlub?) for a while. I miss playing the music, but I don't miss the cr*p that went along with it.

There always seems to be a new band that's willing to play gigs for (next to) nothing to build a clientele. Problem is, about the time they get a decent rep built up, another new band pops up willing to play for free...

It used to be that the kids wanted that big thumping drum machine sound with a tortured electric guitar overlay and some chanting profanity thrown in. Now that they have grown up, they and their kids want that big thumping drum machine sound with a tortured electric guitar overlay and some chanting profanity thrown in.

Finding a decent-sized audience who simply WANT to hear nice music takes large population centers. For them to pay enough to support a professional band seems to me a rarity.

I would feel lucky to pay to play with a band, but I accepted that when I moved to the hinterlands. I am guessing that most bands would do better donating the gig money to a school music program or other good PR charity rather than handing a few bucks each to a lot of musicians.

SlidemanSailor wrote: ↑Sat Nov 17, 2018 8:44 am ... I am guessing that most bands would do better donating the gig money to a school music program or other good PR charity rather than handing a few bucks each to a lot of musicians.

This works well when the musicians are independently wealthy or have good paying day jobs. But I think the OP is referring to musicians who want to make a LIVING playing trombone. There are not many jobs playing trombone that can earn you a living. And if you can find a good job as an accountant or computer designer you are probably better off. But somebody has to win the lottery...

For the first time in forever, we had a special wedding gig that paid an honorarium of $80 per person for an 18-piece band. We are also booked at the same rate this week for a benefit.

So, we are making over minimum wage. I haven't made this much in an evening since I was in the union back in the 70s. We'll soon be back to bars where we get $10 for 3 hours.

Now I can afford Hetman valve oil!

BGuttman wrote: ↑Sat Nov 17, 2018 9:44 am ...But I think the OP is referring to musicians who want to make a LIVING playing trombone. There are not many jobs playing trombone that can earn you a living. And if you can find a good job as an accountant or computer designer you are probably better off. But somebody has to win the lottery...

We're not really trying to make a living. Our goal is to compete against the other BBs in the area as well as the DJs who've been multiplying lke rabbits. We love to play, but we do have expenses to cover.

Conn100HGuy wrote: ↑Mon Oct 22, 2018 9:12 am ... ours is the only one that targets ballroom dancing. The others emphasize swing and/or jazz charts that are more suitable for listening.

Then you don't really need to "compete against the other BBs in the area" because you offer something completely different. And the same probably goes for the DJ's.

Compete by offering a different or better product, not by a lower price. There are people who ARE trying to make a living.

I live in a medium/small city (about 300 000 pop.) There are a lot of groups in town but three big bands that play regularly. They have different focuses but have one thing in common: they create their own work first. They have a regular set of performances each year and then consider any other offers as they come up.


Band A rehearses at a local legion. The players are in the group to keep up their chops and read charts. They don't really rehearse per se. It is a band to blow through a lot of repertoire and have a beer at the break. In return for the rehearsal space, they play a dance a year for the legion. It is a group of talented players so they occasionally get asked to do other things. They charge for those things at about $50 a player.


Band B is a "jazz orchestra". They focus on contemporary big band jazz. They play two shows a year at a 500 seat hall in our public library that books rent free for non-profit community groups. They will take other jobs as does Band A for about the same rate.


Band C is primarily a dance band but mixes up the repertoire for the sake of the musicians. They had spent a long time scuffling for gigs until they struck a deal with a local venue. For probably the last five to seven years they have had a regular season of themed dance shows. The hall and the band share the risk and reward for the shows. The quality of this group went through the roof when the gigs were set in stone a year in advance and they also started putting out vanity CD's every three years or so. It is still a lot of the original players too. They just started to act more professional when they were working like professionals.

There are a few models to look at.

The ABC reply is extremely helpful. Our band is probably C-lite at this point. No vanity CDs. We are in the process of locking down a new venue for regular quarterly dances with risk sharing. Wish us luck!

I play in two big bands in the OKC metro area, and get calls a few times a year for dance band work involving other bands.

The two bands I play with most often generate about 8-12 gigs a year between the two of them, not including special events. They are concert-oriented; we do themed concerts (Music of Duke Ellington, Music of Oklahoma Composers, etc...) and bring in guest artists. Pay is good for a big band gig but most of us aren't doing those gigs for the money, we all like playing the music and we all like each other. We have some wonderful people who manage those bands/events and raise funds to make that stuff happen.

Those bands occasionally book dances as well, usually for charity balls, big time fundraisers, etc. Those types of gigs tend to pay really well. They're reading gigs, and everyone tends to be really familiar with the book.

There are other dance band and big band gigs that I book less occasionally - usually 5-10 gigs a year. These types of gigs can be "concert" gigs (often times involving a singer) but are more often dance gigs. Show up, read the book, get your check and go home.

On rare occasions someone contracts a big band for something special - pick up band for a well known artist, TV ad, or for a film score (OK was offering generous tax breaks to the film industry for a little bit - hope they renew that) and those pay union scale for rehearsals and performance, very nice little chunk of change.

I don't want to give exact numbers, that's someone else's business and I'll not do anything to put others or myself at a disadvantage when negotiating pay.

I'm not a union member, but we tend to negotiate better pay for many things than the union does here. It's a different thing here.

If all I had to make my bread were big band gigs, I'd be starving - like all the musicians I work with around here, I cobble together a living playing in as many bands as will have me. I don't undercut and I don't "sublet". I teach, I arrange and I do some work in the studio to piece it all together. I love playing in big bands so I make it happen whenever I can.

I can't help putting on my "union" hat for a second (former union executive board member here) - the fees that the union lays out are considered to be minimums. I know many groups here that negotiate higher fees when possible than just whatever is union scale, and that is not a problem in the least for their union membership. In fact, it is encouraged. Not recruiting here, but just want to be sure that info was out there.

Jim Scott