TromboneChat

Posted: **Sun Aug 05, 2018 6:20 pm**

Question for the Bach-collectors/fans out there.

I know that 36/42/50's from the Mt Vernon periods are highly valued. What about smaller horns? 6/8/12/16...

I think the 6's are abundant and affordable. What about the others?

Posted: **Sun Aug 05, 2018 7:06 pm**

Well remember that 6s from the New York period are abundant but there weren't a huge number of 6s from the Mt Vernon period. At that point players moved on to the larger sizes.

Posted: **Mon Aug 06, 2018 6:55 am**

I don't know the details of the history, but as far as I can tell, the Bach factory had a particularly great bell maker in the Mt. Vernon factory. I don't know who that was or what years he worked there exactly.

Steve Dillon tells me that the assembly was more consistently excellent in the early Elkhart years, when those workers were the same people who had previously been employed in the Conn factory.

Posted: **Mon Aug 06, 2018 7:58 am**

GabeLangfur wrote: ↑Mon Aug 06, 2018 6:55 am I don't know the details of the history, but as far as I can tell, the Bach factory had a particularly great bell maker in the Mt. Vernon factory. I don't know who that was or what years he worked there exactly.

Steve Dillon tells me that the assembly was more consistently excellent in the early Elkhart years, when those workers were the same people who had previously been employed in the Conn factory.

Peppy Patino? Or was he earlier than Mt. Vernon?

Posted: **Mon Aug 06, 2018 8:27 am**

Matt K wrote: ↑Mon Aug 06, 2018 7:58 am

Peppy Patino? Or was he earlier than Mt. Vernon?

Peppy Pettinato was his name, wasn't it?

Posted: **Mon Aug 06, 2018 8:47 am**

John Pettinato - but he was known as Peppy. He had a shop in NYC for many years - I don't believe he ever moved when Bach left Mt. Vernon.

Posted: **Mon Aug 06, 2018 9:54 am**

JoeStanko wrote: ↑Mon Aug 06, 2018 8:47 am John Pettinato - but he was known as Peppy. He had a shop in NYC for many years - I don't believe he ever moved when Bach left Mt. Vernon.

I knew he did mouthpiece modifications, but I didn't know he was the bell maker.

I believe they also changed some of the bell-making methods when they moved to Elkhart, with a different blank shape the sheet metal was cut to before working in to the bell shape, that required less skilled hand-work. I read something about it related to trumpet bells.

Posted: **Mon Aug 06, 2018 10:14 am**

mrdeacon wrote: ↑Sun Aug 05, 2018 7:06 pm Well remember that 6s from the New York period are abundant but there weren't a huge number of 6s from the Mt Vernon period. At that point players moved on to the larger sizes.

Yes, most or all of the 6's I have seen have been from the New York period, come to think of it.

Posted: **Mon Aug 06, 2018 10:18 am**

And do the 12/16's from the Mt Vernon years have a reputation of being great? Like the 36/42's?

(I have been curious about this because (1) I don't hear much about them and (2) I now have a line on one.)

Posted: **Mon Aug 06, 2018 10:23 am**

greenbean wrote: ↑Mon Aug 06, 2018 10:18 am And do the 12/16's from the Mt Vernon years have a reputation of being great? Like the 36/42's?

(I have been curious about this because (1) I don't hear much about them and (2) I now have a line on one.)

I played a great Mt Vernon 16 some years ago, and it was fantastic. No experience with 8s or 12s. I have played some NY 6s, and they were all really fantastic horns. They are also plentiful, and sell for an embarassingly low price. I have a friend with 2 from the 30s/40s. They play great, but he couldn't even get $1300 for them, so he just kept them.

Posted: **Mon Aug 06, 2018 11:28 am**

I have a weirdo Mt Vernon 6vii bell paired with a MtV 9 slide. It's a pretty amazing and special horn. Fuller low range than you'd expect, great high range, and just a joy to play. I don't know if it's MtV special sauce or the 9 slide, but...man. Great little horn.

That said....I have a number of excellent small bore Bachs from throughout the eras-- LT8G from the 90s, Sterling+ LT16M from 90s/2000s, late 70s Corp LT16M, and that weirdo MtV 6/9. Each is a great horn in its own right, so I would definitely consider other eras if the MtV horn you have a line on doesn't pan out. Just play before you buy, if you can. There are duds out there, but there are also really excellent horns.

Some good places to check: Brassark and Dillons have a bunch of Mt Vernon and NY horns right now. I didn't see any on Brass Exchange.

Posted: **Mon Aug 06, 2018 12:05 pm**

bimmerman wrote: ↑Mon Aug 06, 2018 11:28 am I have a weirdo Mt Vernon 6vii bell paired with a MtV 9 slide. It's a pretty amazing and special horn. Fuller low range than you'd expect, great high range, and just a joy to play. I don't know if it's MtV special sauce or the 9 slide, but...man. Great little horn.

That said....I have a number of excellent small bore Bachs from throughout the eras-- LT8G from the 90s, Sterling+ LT16M from 90s/2000s, late 70s Corp LT16M, and that weirdo MtV 6/9. Each is a great horn in its own right, so I would definitely consider other eras if the MtV horn you have a line on doesn't pan out. Just play before you buy, if you can. There are duds out there, but there are also really excellent horns.

Some good places to check: Brassark and Dillons have a bunch of Mt Vernon and NY horns right now. I didn't see any on Brass Exchange.

I also had a Bach 9 at one point too. Very cool horn. I was told that evidently they often (or exclusively?) paired vi bells with 9 slides. That information may be lost to time unfortunately but it isn't as much of an oddball as you think at the very least and could be the same as all the other 9s!

Posted: **Mon Aug 06, 2018 12:22 pm**

Matt K wrote: ↑Mon Aug 06, 2018 12:05 pm
I also had a Bach 9 at one point too. Very cool horn. I was told that evidently they often (or exclusively?) paired vi bells with 9 slides. That information may be lost to time unfortunately but it isn't as much of an oddball as you think at the very least and could be the same as all the other 9s!

Ha, my horn is your old 9. It's a sweet one.

I just looked at the mounting sheets from the old TTF (also attached here)-- the 9 was supposed to have the 8-12-16 bell (same as 6-ii bell). From the numbers listed it looks like the 6vii bell is actually a bit bigger (and also the same as a #4 bell).

So I think that makes sense. I haven't heard of any other 9s out there, but it would makes sense to me to use the 6vii bell.

Posted: **Mon Aug 06, 2018 1:11 pm**

I have a Mt. Vernon 12 and it's great. I have a New York 6 model VII but the original leadpipe was cracked. I replaced with a .485 T2 leadpipe from BrassArk. It saved the horn but it does not play the same as the original leadpipe. I played another New York 6 mod VII and I think the original is better. I hope to see a T1 on the BrassArk catalogue soon since it seems to be more close to the original.

/Tom

Posted: **Mon Aug 06, 2018 1:59 pm**

bimmerman wrote: ↑Mon Aug 06, 2018 12:22 pm
Ha, my horn is your old 9. It's a sweet one.

I just looked at the mounting sheets from the old TTF (also attached here)-- the 9 was supposed to have the 8-12-16 bell (same as 6-ii bell). From the numbers listed it looks like the 6vii bell is actually a bit bigger (and also the same as a #4 bell).

So I think that makes sense. I haven't heard of any other 9s out there, but it would makes sense to me to use the 6vii bell.

Aha! Yeah that horn has been around! I'd probably still have it if I wouldn't have felt immeasurably guilty about pulling the leadpipe on it. I just can't NOT tinker with a horn

imsevimse wrote: ↑Mon Aug 06, 2018 1:11 pm I have a Mt. Vernon 12 and it's great. I have a New York 6 model VII but the original leadpipe was cracked. I replaced with a .485 T2 leadpipe from BrassArk. It saved the horn but it does not play the same as the original leadpipe. I think the original one was better. I hope to see a T1 on the BrassArk catalogue since it seems to be more close to the original.

/Tom

I'm not familiar with those leadpipes from BrassArk? Are they listed somewhere?

Posted: **Mon Aug 06, 2018 2:02 pm**

Matt K wrote: ↑Mon Aug 06, 2018 1:59 pm
bimmerman wrote: ↑Mon Aug 06, 2018 12:22 pm
Ha, my horn is your old 9. It's a sweet one.

I just looked at the mounting sheets from the old TTF (also attached here)-- the 9 was supposed to have the 8-12-16 bell (same as 6-ii bell). From the numbers listed it looks like the 6vii bell is actually a bit bigger (and also the same as a #4 bell).

So I think that makes sense. I haven't heard of any other 9s out there, but it would makes sense to me to use the 6vii bell.
Aha! Yeah that horn has been around! I'd probably still have it if I wouldn't have felt immeasurably guilty about pulling the leadpipe on it. I just can't NOT tinker with a horn

Ha, yea.....long story short, I play tested it a few owners ago but couldn't justify it at the time. When it came up again, (and I had a job...) I snagged it. Not letting it go aaaaaanytime soon!

Posted: **Mon Aug 06, 2018 2:59 pm**

Matt K wrote: ↑Mon Aug 06, 2018 1:59 pm I'm not familiar with those leadpipes from BrassArk? Are they listed somewhere?

Brad has some custom pipes not listed on his site. You just have to bug him about it since they aren't production pipes made in larger batches.

Posted: **Mon Aug 06, 2018 3:56 pm**

mrdeacon wrote: ↑Mon Aug 06, 2018 2:59 pm
Matt K wrote: ↑Mon Aug 06, 2018 1:59 pm I'm not familiar with those leadpipes from BrassArk? Are they listed somewhere?
Brad has some custom pipes not listed on his site. You just have to bug him about it since they aren't production pipes made in larger batches.

Ah!! Good to know. I actually was going to check with him about some other leadpipes too... I just put an order in for a 32H one for my 500/525 but I'm trying to optimize my alto and medium-large slides (both 525/547 oddly enough). Thanks for the info!

Posted: **Mon Aug 06, 2018 11:59 pm**

I can not find the order form for the leadpipe I bought on Internet anymore. It is possible I have ben mistaken too, I might have ordered that one from the HornGuys and not the BrassArk since I have made several orders for lead pipes from both. In that case it is probably a Shires pipe I bought. I think the .485 leadpipes were labeled T1 and T2. The T1 was the Bach 6 leadpipe I wanted but since that one was sold out and they only had one T2 in stock I ordered that one. Today there are Shires pipes labeled T01 and T02 on the HornGuys site. It does not say which bore size they fit? Not much information about the pipes at all. There is a T85 pipe on their site that fits a .485 horn.

/Tom

Posted: **Tue Aug 07, 2018 6:42 am**

imsevimse wrote: ↑Mon Aug 06, 2018 11:59 pm I can not find the order form for the leadpipe I bought on Internet anymore. It is possible I have ben mistaken too, I might have ordered that one from the HornGuys and not the BrassArk since I have made several orders for lead pipes from both. In that case it is probably a Shires pipe I bought. I think the .485 leadpipes were labeled T1 and T2. The T1 was the Bach 6 leadpipe I wanted but since that one was sold out and they only had one T2 in stock I ordered that one. Today there are Shires pipes labeled T01 and T02 on the HornGuys site. It does not say which bore size they fit? Not much information about the pipes at all. There is a T85 pipe on their site that fits a .485 horn.

/Tom

Shires pipes are labeled as follows:

T85: .485-inch bore, compatible with small-shank mouthpiece
T0: .500-inch bore, compatible with small-shank mouthpiece
T8: .508-inch bore, compatible with small-shank mouthpiece
M: .525-inch bore, compatible with small-shank mouthpiece
MT: .525-inch bore, compatible with large-shank mouthpiece
[Unmarked]: .547-inch bore, compatible with large-shank mouthpiece
VE: Vintage Elkhart taper, .547-inch bore, compatible with large-shank mouthpiece (unique venturi size, 8-inch length)
B: .562-inch bore (bass), compatible with large-shank mouthpiece
BB: .578-inch bore (XL bass), compatible with large-shank mouthpiece

and then (except for the VE) with a number to indicate which size venturi within that bore size.

Posted: **Tue Aug 07, 2018 8:18 am**

Aha! I was about to suggest you may have a Shires pipe but indicating they didn't have a "1" available made me hesitate. Did you get that recommendation from the TTF sometime last year? I seem to recall someone in that position!

Yeah, the hornguys site doesn't do a good job explaning what they have available. Your confusion is that the space is important in their dropdown menu. They have:

T85 "2"
T0 "1"
T0 "2"
T0 "3"
MD "1"

In other words,
485 with a 2 taper
500 with a 1 taper
500 with a 2 taper
500 with a 3 taper
495 (Michael Davis) with a 1 taper

You're probably not going to find a 485 "1" in stock anywhere. You'd have to bite the bullet and order one from the factory. Will take a few months but will probably be faster than waiting for one to be in stock somewhere.

Posted: **Wed Aug 08, 2018 1:10 pm**

I have a Mount Vernon 36 and a 12 from the 1st year of production in Elkhart (most likely Mount Vernon Parts)
They both play great.
On All my small horns I use Mount Vernon 7C`s and there is a difference from later 7C`s I have

Posted: **Wed Jun 19, 2019 2:51 pm**

I just wanted to mention that the real Mt. Vernon sleeper is the MV era Mercedes, which if I am not mistaken, was built on the same tooling, by the same craftsmen, as the Stradivarius 12, with the only difference being that the Mercedes is an all yellow brass horn, while the 12 has nickel trim.

I got this one in a trade with DJ Kennedy a few years ago, and it holds it's own against the various MV 12's I've played.

Posted: **Wed Jun 19, 2019 5:44 pm**

Interesting.

I have a MV Mercury and it'll peel paint on a moment's notice. I think it has a narrow bell throat, but not sure. I see a lacrosse ball in it sits much higher than in a standard MV flair.

Posted: **Sat Jun 29, 2019 10:50 am**

I'm running a 1942 Stradivarius 16, copper bell, ultralight slide. First owner Morty Trautman, second owner Michael Balogh. Super horn. Very beautiful, focused sound.

Posted: **Sat Jun 29, 2019 7:57 pm**

greenbean wrote: ↑Mon Aug 06, 2018 10:18 am And do the 12/16's from the Mt Vernon years have a reputation of being great? ...

Yes. All these were ii bells. Guys would find orphan 16 duelies and put 12 slides on them. That's the Fontana horn.

Posted: **Sat Jun 29, 2019 8:01 pm**

bimmerman wrote: ↑Mon Aug 06, 2018 11:28 am I have a weirdo Mt Vernon 6vii bell paired with a MtV 9 slide. It's a pretty amazing and special horn. Fuller low range than you'd expect, great high range, and just a joy to play. I don't know if it's MtV special sauce or the 9 slide, but...man. Great little horn...

I got a 9 NOS in a box that I paired with a MV 16 bell from a New Orleans pro in 87. He had a 16M slide on it that was...woofy. The 9 is beautiful on it though brighter than a 12. Excellent lead combo. (Cut the trumpets if desired!). Fine in small groups.

Posted: **Sat Jun 29, 2019 8:05 pm**

imsevimse wrote: ↑Mon Aug 06, 2018 1:11 pm I have a Mt. Vernon 12 and it's great. I have a New York 6 model VII but the original leadpipe was cracked...

/Tom

I repaired a Fontana cracked leadpipe by wrapping it closed with magnet wire and soldering. Ain't pretty, but it works. These splits are tension problems, and a wire wrap addresses that directly. Oh, I did have to turn down the wrap diameter on a lath to fit, but hey, it still works.

Posted: **Thu Jul 18, 2019 10:40 pm**

I have 2 Mt Vernon 36`s. A straight 36 with a light weight slide and an Edwards #2 leadpipe, which if I had to play only one horn for the rest of my life , this would be it. My other is a My Vernon 36B yellow bell and standard slide. This is my "smaller" Classical horn . I have a custom Schilke 46D rim with a 51 bottom that sings on this horn. My 3rd one is a 12 that is from early in the 1st year in Elkhart. Mount Vernon parts. All 3 play amazing Most of my small bore mouthpieces are Mt Vernon 7C`s

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