SOS:: Airmen of Note Info

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TheArchivist
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SOS:: Airmen of Note Info

Post by TheArchivist » Fri Jul 13, 2018 12:20 am

Hey guys,
I've been looking on every nook and cranny on the internet to no avail to find out where I can get the Airmen of Note's Better than Ever album. I've tried contacting multiple people on their website to no avail and ever since the rewind play site went down, finding stuff from them has been a headache (I only found out about it after it was too late).
I currently own their better than ever album on vinyl and would love to digitize it, however, I am aware that there somewhere exists digital copies of all of the songs as I have previously had them...
My motives here are to archive all of their music to ensure they don't become another gem lost to time, as they are probably the best active jazz ensemble today (at least in my opinion :biggrin: )

SO if anyone has any leads, I'd love for you to reach out or put me in touch with anyone you know that could help me out here.

I much appreciate it guys (and gals)
kingsk1117
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Re: SOS:: Airmen of Note Info

Post by kingsk1117 » Fri Jul 13, 2018 6:52 am

There are 10 copies for sale on Discogs.com
AndrewMeronek
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Re: SOS:: Airmen of Note Info

Post by AndrewMeronek » Fri Jul 13, 2018 8:11 am

U.S. Military albums are public domain, and people selling them for profit technically are committing a copyright crime.

Contact the band directly, through military channels. They will be able to make copies and send you one.

http://www.music.af.mil/Bands/The-Unite ... n-of-Note/
“All musicians are subconsciously mathematicians.”

- Thelonious Monk
Mikebmiller
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Re: SOS:: Airmen of Note Info

Post by Mikebmiller » Fri Jul 13, 2018 10:44 am

There used to be a site where for a $20 donation you could download the whole catalog in high quality sound.
Doug Elliott
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Re: SOS:: Airmen of Note Info

Post by Doug Elliott » Fri Jul 13, 2018 7:31 pm

AndrewMeronek wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 8:11 am
U.S. Military albums are public domain, and people selling them for profit technically are committing a copyright crime.

Contact the band directly, through military channels. They will be able to make copies and send you one.

http://www.music.af.mil/Bands/The-Unite ... n-of-Note/
Not when I was in.
And it was, maybe still is, legal for private companies to sell albums of our recordings.
AndrewMeronek
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Re: SOS:: Airmen of Note Info

Post by AndrewMeronek » Fri Jul 13, 2018 11:30 pm

I was able to find this tidbit of legalese:

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/10/974
(c)Recordings.—
(1) When authorized under regulations prescribed by the Secretary of Defense for purposes of this section, a military musical unit may produce recordings for distribution to the public, at a cost not to exceed expenses of production and distribution.
(2) Amounts received in payment for a recording distributed to the public under this subsection shall be credited to the appropriation or account providing the funds for the production of the recording. Any amount so credited shall be merged with amounts in the appropriation or account to which credited, and shall be available for the same purposes, and subject to the same conditions and limitations, as amounts in such appropriation or account.
So, anyone selling the recordings, public or private, are required to remit payments received to these production costs. Hence, not for profit.

I remember some little schindig being raised when I was in about some guy who was reselling military band recordings for his own profit, but he claimed he was merely selling a re-drawn album cover and not the recordings they came with. Pretty shady. I don't remember the names.
“All musicians are subconsciously mathematicians.”

- Thelonious Monk
afugate
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Re: SOS:: Airmen of Note Info

Post by afugate » Sat Jul 14, 2018 6:00 am

AndrewMeronek wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 11:30 pm
I was able to find this tidbit of legalese:

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/10/974
(c)Recordings.—
(1) When authorized under regulations prescribed by the Secretary of Defense for purposes of this section, a military musical unit may produce recordings for distribution to the public, at a cost not to exceed expenses of production and distribution.
(2) Amounts received in payment for a recording distributed to the public under this subsection shall be credited to the appropriation or account providing the funds for the production of the recording. Any amount so credited shall be merged with amounts in the appropriation or account to which credited, and shall be available for the same purposes, and subject to the same conditions and limitations, as amounts in such appropriation or account.
So, anyone selling the recordings, public or private, are required to remit payments received to these production costs. Hence, not for profit.

I remember some little schindig being raised when I was in about some guy who was reselling military band recordings for his own profit, but he claimed he was merely selling a re-drawn album cover and not the recordings they came with. Pretty shady. I don't remember the names.
Surely this doesn't apply to private transactions that occur after the initial purchase? I read this as saying the initial sale by the military cannot cost more than the price to produce and distribute. What someone does after that is their own business. (both figuratively, and possibly literally :wink:)

--Andy in OKC
AndrewMeronek
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Re: SOS:: Airmen of Note Info

Post by AndrewMeronek » Sat Jul 14, 2018 9:23 am

I haven't found the tidbit of legalese saying that military band recordings belong to the public domain, but second-hand Googling does reinforce this. Are you allowed to sell public domain property for your own profit without modifying it (and hence creating original work)?
“All musicians are subconsciously mathematicians.”

- Thelonious Monk
AndrewMeronek
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Re: SOS:: Airmen of Note Info

Post by AndrewMeronek » Sat Jul 14, 2018 9:27 am

afugate wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 6:00 am
Surely this doesn't apply to private transactions that occur after the initial purchase? I read this as saying the initial sale by the military cannot cost more than the price to produce and distribute. What someone does after that is their own business. (both figuratively, and possibly literally :wink:)

--Andy in OKC
Not sure, but my gut says probably not. What if there was no initial purchase, as when someone decides to make their own copies and sell them?
“All musicians are subconsciously mathematicians.”

- Thelonious Monk
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BGuttman
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Re: SOS:: Airmen of Note Info

Post by BGuttman » Sat Jul 14, 2018 1:35 pm

If you have something and somebody else wants to pay for it, you can sell it. Copyright gets involved when you want to replicate it or broadcast it.

I've bought lots of Mozart and Beethoven symphonies, both sheet music and recordings. It's all Public Domain music, but the folks who printed the sheet music or performed the recording deserve to get paid.
Bruce Guttman
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AndrewMeronek
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Re: SOS:: Airmen of Note Info

Post by AndrewMeronek » Sat Jul 14, 2018 10:39 pm

BGuttman wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 1:35 pm
If you have something and somebody else wants to pay for it, you can sell it. Copyright gets involved when you want to replicate it or broadcast it.

I've bought lots of Mozart and Beethoven symphonies, both sheet music and recordings. It's all Public Domain music, but the folks who printed the sheet music or performed the recording deserve to get paid.
When you buy a score for a Mozart symphony, you're paying for the editing and manuscript work the publisher put into their edition. Recordings of a Mozart symphony are generally not in the public domain.

Remember that at least in the U.S., military band recordings have that special clause I noted above, of profits being used to reimburse production and distribution costs. I believe that this means (given the paths of this conversaion so far) that if someone were selling their own reproduced recordings of one of these bands, they are required by that law to remit all their profits to that band's publisher.
“All musicians are subconsciously mathematicians.”

- Thelonious Monk
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ghmerrill
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Re: SOS:: Airmen of Note Info

Post by ghmerrill » Sun Jul 15, 2018 8:02 am

AndrewMeronek wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 10:39 pm
Remember that at least in the U.S., military band recordings have that special clause I noted above, of profits being used to reimburse production and distribution costs. I believe that this means (given the paths of this conversaion so far) that if someone were selling their own reproduced recordings of one of these bands, they are required by that law to remit all their profits to that band's publisher.
I don't really have a dog in this fight, and don't want one. :) But I do think you're making a faulty inference here based on your reading of that chunk of text quoted from the Cornell Law site, and giving it a MUCH broader reading than (to use a legal phrase) the four corners of the document come close to supporting.

So far as I can see, that pasaage says NOTHING about what happens in the case of someone OTHER than the "military musical unit" producing recordings, and it's simply a constraint on any amounts received in payment for a recording distributed to the public BY THAT UNIT. It's just an answer to the question "So if a military unit sells some of its work product to the public, what's supposed to happen to the money it gets?"

The first paragraph clearly restricts the scope to recordings produced by military musical units, and the second paragraph then specifies what those units are to do with any payments THEY receive for recordings THEY make. Furthermore, the title of that section even more clearly states that it pertains to "Military musical units and musicians: performance policies". And the rest of the 10 US Code 974 very specifically restricts itself to constraints on "military units". It neither imposes nor attempts to impose any restrictions on anyone other than members of military units, and so has no effect on the work product of those units being sold by others.

At least that's my reading of it, but I do think it's clear. This, of course, leaves open the question of what rights anyone outside of the military unit in question has to reproduce or sell that work product. And on that topic I think I'll bail out.
Gary Merrill
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Matt K
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Re: SOS:: Airmen of Note Info

Post by Matt K » Mon Jul 16, 2018 8:49 am

Gary is correct. The title that subsection c falls under is titled:
10 U.S. Code § 974 - Military musical units and musicians: performance policies; restriction on performance in competition with local civilian musicians
Additionally, the distribution is different than reselling. So it seems like it might be illegal for say, the Army Blues, to sell their own CDs on Amazon as the first layer of distribution. But someone who has an Army Blues CD can resell on Amazon under the first-sale doctrine.
AndrewMeronek
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Re: SOS:: Airmen of Note Info

Post by AndrewMeronek » Mon Jul 16, 2018 1:00 pm

So, someone is allowed to fabricate their own Army Blues CDs and sell them to whatever profit they desire? I'm not talking about reselling already bought CDs.

That doesn't sound right.
“All musicians are subconsciously mathematicians.”

- Thelonious Monk
timothy42b
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Re: SOS:: Airmen of Note Info

Post by timothy42b » Mon Jul 16, 2018 1:32 pm

Check this out:
https://www.amazon.com/Ceremonial-Music ... B003BNZIFK


Amazon is selling a CD of Army band music.

I would have thought that 1) it's not legal for the band to make money off a CD, though they could recover expenses (but probably wouldn't bother, as the accounting is daunting) 2) once you have an Army CD in your hand, you can sell it for whatever somebody is willing to pay, like any other surplus military property, but 3) you can't reproduce copyrighted material without permission.

However Amazon says these CDs are fabricated only when you order. That doesn't sound legal, assuming there is a copyright, but maybe they have permission? weird.

Matt K Edit: Fixed URL tags
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Matt K
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Re: SOS:: Airmen of Note Info

Post by Matt K » Mon Jul 16, 2018 2:41 pm

The other example that pops into my mind was the Airmen of Note fansite that was mentioned previously in this thread. They used to require a "donation" to download the higher quality recordings. I have actually purchased some of the mp3s from Amazon of the military bands. Especially for some of the military auditions since that is a pretty good way to get into the head of the ensemble you're auditioning for. (Or maybe it isn't because I never got past the first round? :wink: )

At any rate, it seems that either the military is in conflict with the law, Amazon is burning he discs and then selling them to the public without utilizing the first-sale doctrine, Amazon is being slightly inaccurate about how the CDs are produced, and/or the military is selling the recordings "at a cost not to exceed expenses of production and distribution."
Doug Elliott
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Re: SOS:: Airmen of Note Info

Post by Doug Elliott » Mon Jul 16, 2018 2:58 pm

The military is not selling recordings.
They have been known to give other entities the right to make and sell recordings, I suppose to offset the considerable cost of production but not for profit.

I can't point you to the applicable laws but I know there was a lot of discussion about that when I was in, and there was a record company in Nashville that was putting out a couple of Note CD's.

The band was constantly bombarded with requests for CD's but there were not allowed to sell them or produce large quantities; there were only for educators and recruiting purposes. So an agreement was reached to have somebody else supply them for the public demand.

I think there is an official USAF Band website that has all of the old recordings on it similar to the old Rewindplay website, but I haven't looked for it.
sungfw
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Re: SOS:: Airmen of Note Info

Post by sungfw » Tue Jul 17, 2018 5:38 am

Note that, per the US Code 17, "a work prepared by an officer or employee of the United States Government as part of that person’s official duties" (§101, definitions) is not eligible for domestic copyright (§105 Subject matter of copyright: United States Government works). Consequently, it is in the public domain.

Note as well that the public domain status extends only to the recorded sound. Copyrights attached to the musical selections, however, remain in force. See US Marine Corp. Provides Music In Response To FOIA Request, But Warns That Publishing It May Infringe On Copyrights
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ghmerrill
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Re: SOS:: Airmen of Note Info

Post by ghmerrill » Tue Jul 17, 2018 6:33 am

I wonder if some of this kind of thing falls less under copyright law and more under the law governing performance rights, etc.
Gary Merrill
Wessex EEb Bass tuba
Mack Brass Compensating Euph
Amati Oval Euph
1924 Buescher 3-valve Eb tuba
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1947 Olds "Standard" trombone (Olds #3)
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tjonz
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Re: SOS:: Airmen of Note Info

Post by tjonz » Tue Jul 17, 2018 8:11 am

Does anyone know why "rewind play.com" bit the dust? I used to drop by every couple of years and download a few more albums.

One comment on the legalities discussion: Shakespeare is in the public domain, and there's no shortage of companies that profit by selling copies of his works. If the Note's albums are, in fact, in the public domain, why would selling them be any different?
Doug Elliott
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Re: SOS:: Airmen of Note Info

Post by Doug Elliott » Tue Jul 17, 2018 9:55 am

The person who ran Rewindplay may have died. I can't remember his name but he was an older guy when I was in.
sungfw
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Re: SOS:: Airmen of Note Info

Post by sungfw » Tue Jul 17, 2018 10:44 am

tjonz wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 8:11 am
One comment on the legalities discussion: Shakespeare is in the public domain, and there's no shortage of companies that profit by selling copies of his works. If the Note's albums are, in fact, in the public domain, why would selling them be any different?
One difference is that with Shakespeare, the underlying work itself is in the public domain so there are no additional copyright encumberances on its reproduction and distribution. With the Note's recordings, as noted in the Marine Corp's response linked upthread, it is the only the recorded sound itself that is in the public domain; copyright of the underlying music remains in force.

Provided that an individual or company has obtained mechanical licenses and is paying the statutory royalties to the copyright holders of the underlying works, they are free (in principle at least) to profit from distributing the recordings.
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Re: SOS:: Airmen of Note Info

Post by Doug Elliott » Tue Jul 17, 2018 1:10 pm

I'm pretty sure that was the agreement at the time.
TheArchivist
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Re: SOS:: Airmen of Note Info

Post by TheArchivist » Tue Jul 17, 2018 7:40 pm

kingsk1117 wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 6:52 am
There are 10 copies for sale on Discogs.com
I am aware that there are vinyl copies available, as I already own 2. That said, I have no way of getting them digitally, and this whole discussion was derailed into legal talk :idk: :idk:
TheArchivist
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Re: SOS:: Airmen of Note Info

Post by TheArchivist » Tue Jul 17, 2018 7:44 pm

AndrewMeronek wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 8:11 am
U.S. Military albums are public domain, and people selling them for profit technically are committing a copyright crime.

Contact the band directly, through military channels. They will be able to make copies and send you one.

http://www.music.af.mil/Bands/The-Unite ... n-of-Note/
Unfortunately, all of my emails as of yet have gone unresponded to. I've been trying for months and I think I'm running out of options. :idk: :weep:
Doug Elliott
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Re: SOS:: Airmen of Note Info

Post by Doug Elliott » Tue Jul 17, 2018 9:59 pm

jthomas105
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Re: SOS:: Airmen of Note Info

Post by jthomas105 » Tue Jul 17, 2018 10:24 pm

Forget about Amazon, check out iTunes. Many Airmen of Note and even more US Marine Band cd's. Didn't check for Army or Navy bands.
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