Instrument Innovations Rotary valve

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dukesboneman
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Instrument Innovations Rotary valve

Post by dukesboneman » Mon May 21, 2018 6:41 pm

Has anyone tried one of these?
Feedback? Opinions?
Thanks
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Burgerbob
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Re: Instrument Innovations Rotary valve

Post by Burgerbob » Mon May 21, 2018 7:43 pm

I have one on my 42. I love it. Not as open as I thought it would be, but very fast and quiet and really made this 42 a great one.
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Re: Instrument Innovations Rotary valve

Post by Walleye » Tue May 22, 2018 6:31 am

I had a new wrap built around Mike and Kim's valve. The wrap is configured so that it is compatible with Greenhoe bell mounts. I use a Greenhoe yellow bell, Bach 42 Friedman bell, a nickel 42 bell and a 36G bell with the wrap. In my opinion it is the best valve on the market. It is open and very centered. So much of how a valve feels/plays is affected by the rest of the trombone, so it's difficult to say what is the valve and what is everything else. I have been fortunate to have owned and played a Rath R4F with Rotax, Bach 42 Hagmann, Bach Artisan, Shires rotary and a Greenhoe. The instrument innovations valve is as good as any of these valves. At their price point I wouldn't hesitate to say try it..
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Matt K
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Re: Instrument Innovations Rotary valve

Post by Matt K » Tue May 22, 2018 7:45 am

I'm going to be making one for a Shires bass in the not too distant future. Will report back when that's finished!
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Re: Instrument Innovations Rotary valve

Post by paulyg » Sun May 27, 2018 6:26 pm

I have one on a recently-acquired Bach 42. The conversion was done by Eric Edwards and the original closed wrap endures.

When I received it from the previous owner, I had major issues with the valve binding. I get the impression that the p/o did not take very good care of the instrument. I contacted Mike (owner) at instrument innovations and he immediately overnighted new bearing plates with bearings pressed in to me. One of the ball bearings was bad, and the new bearings cleared up some of the issues. The valve body was rubbing on the casing, and would bind in certain conditions (irrespective of oiling). Mike offered to pay to have me ship him the whole bell section so he could fix it, but I bathed the section in vinegar and the valve is much freer now. It still rubs occasionally, but doesn't bind. Quick action. If I can afford to go without the horn for a couple of days/week I might take Mike up on his offer and ship the section off to him.

In short, Instrument Innovations can pride themselves on EXCELLENT customer service. I chose not to avail myself of the full extent of their offers, but their product is solid. The fine tolerances mean that oiling the valve is ESSENTIAL to preventing corrosion, as apparently the oxide layer can build up thick enough to cause the valve to bind.
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Re: Instrument Innovations Rotary valve

Post by Bonearzt » Mon May 28, 2018 9:09 pm

paulyg wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 6:26 pm
I have one on a recently-acquired Bach 42. The conversion was done by Eric Edwards and the original closed wrap endures.
When I received it from the previous owner, I had major issues with the valve binding. I get the impression that the p/o did not take very good care of the instrument. I contacted Mike (owner) at instrument innovations and he immediately overnighted new bearing plates with bearings pressed in to me. One of the ball bearings was bad, and the new bearings cleared up some of the issues. The valve body was rubbing on the casing, and would bind in certain conditions (irrespective of oiling). Mike offered to pay to have me ship him the whole bell section so he could fix it, but I bathed the section in vinegar and the valve is much freer now. It still rubs occasionally, but doesn't bind. Quick action. If I can afford to go without the horn for a couple of days/week I might take Mike up on his offer and ship the section off to him.In short, Instrument Innovations can pride themselves on EXCELLENT customer service. I chose not to avail myself of the full extent of their offers, but their product is solid. The fine tolerances mean that oiling the valve is ESSENTIAL to preventing corrosion, as apparently the oxide layer can build up thick enough to cause the valve to bind.
Bummer to hear as the Bach/II rotor valve is a GREAT combo!!!!!
Eric Edwards
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"If you must choose between two evils, choose the one you haven't tried yet."
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Re: Instrument Innovations Rotary valve

Post by Schlitz » Mon May 28, 2018 11:19 pm

I have a set of these on a first gen Frankensson, a Bach 50BL. The conversion and wraps were done by Benn Hansson out here in Seattle, WA. If you go with these valves, go ahead and get their leadpipe receiver.....
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Re: Instrument Innovations Rotary valve

Post by paulyg » Wed May 30, 2018 9:53 am

Bonearzt wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 9:09 pm

Bummer to hear as the Bach/II rotor valve is a GREAT combo!!!!!
The instrument does play amazing! Best Bach I've played. It won me over from Conns :)
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Re: Instrument Innovations Rotary valve

Post by Rrova » Thu Jun 14, 2018 1:41 pm

Eric and Paul,

Do you know if the same gooseneck was used or if a more open one was installed?

Thanks!!
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Re: Instrument Innovations Rotary valve

Post by paulyg » Thu Jun 14, 2018 2:26 pm

Rrova wrote:
Thu Jun 14, 2018 1:41 pm
Eric and Paul,

Do you know if the same gooseneck was used or if a more open one was installed?

Thanks!!
The stock gooseneck was used. The original owner had the M gooseneck installed on the horn before the conversion and decided that it played better with the stock one. I haven't tried the M gooseneck, but the horn plays pretty darn big right now and is very efficient.
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Re: Instrument Innovations Rotary valve

Post by paulyg » Thu Jun 14, 2018 2:35 pm

Eric, I'm wondering if anybody has requested a string linkage for one of these valves. After having used the valve for a couple months, the binding has all but disappeared. The linkage is still clanky and loose though! The action on these valves has the potential to be incredibly quick and smooth, and I don't think this mechanical linkage really cuts the mustard.
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Re: Instrument Innovations Rotary valve

Post by Bonearzt » Thu Jun 14, 2018 4:34 pm

Not for these specifically but I've done that on a Bach 50 .

Can you post a pic of the linkage?

Eric
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"If you must choose between two evils, choose the one you haven't tried yet."
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Re: Instrument Innovations Rotary valve

Post by paulyg » Fri Jun 15, 2018 5:56 pm

Yup, here you go.



Looks like some RC ball-and-socket linkages on the original thumb paddle. I know that Bachs originally had mechanical linkages, and was wondering how straightforward a string linkage conversion would be.
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Re: Instrument Innovations Rotary valve

Post by Bonearzt » Fri Jun 15, 2018 8:32 pm

paulyg wrote:
Fri Jun 15, 2018 5:56 pm
Yup, here you go.



Looks like some RC ball-and-socket linkages on the original thumb paddle. I know that Bachs originally had mechanical linkages, and was wondering how straightforward a string linkage conversion would be.
Yes I use R/C parts there, and drop of heavy oil will quiet these linkages nicely!
A string linkage would take a bit of re-configuring, but not terribly difficult!
I would use a King linkage as a model, and will have to change the lever a bit.

Thanks!
Eric
Eric Edwards
Professional Instrument Repair
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"If you must choose between two evils, choose the one you haven't tried yet."
"Rather fail with honor than succeed by fraud." -Sophocles
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Re: Instrument Innovations Rotary valve

Post by Rrova » Fri Jun 15, 2018 9:43 pm

paulyg wrote:
Thu Jun 14, 2018 2:26 pm
Rrova wrote:
Thu Jun 14, 2018 1:41 pm
Eric and Paul,

Do you know if the same gooseneck was used or if a more open one was installed?

Thanks!!
The stock gooseneck was used. The original owner had the M gooseneck installed on the horn before the conversion and decided that it played better with the stock one. I haven't tried the M gooseneck, but the horn plays pretty darn big right now and is very efficient.
Thanks! At the ATW I got give the new Bach 42BOF a whirl and I really liked it! I found out later that this model also comes with the standard gooseneck, so if I ever get around to putting an Olsen valve on my 42, I'll use the stock gooseneck.

Before I always thought of the 42 as a bunch of parts Vincent tried to put together quickly. I mean you have a tight leadpipe, then a bass crook, than the valve, gooseneck, tuning slide and bell from the 36! Now, I believe that these were done with a specific design in mind.
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Re: Instrument Innovations Rotary valve

Post by Matt K » Fri Jun 15, 2018 9:57 pm

Technically both of those stories can be true at the same time :wink:
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Re: Instrument Innovations Rotary valve

Post by Rrova » Sat Jun 16, 2018 8:30 am

Haha!!! Yes, very true!!
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Re: Instrument Innovations Rotary valve

Post by paulyg » Mon Jun 18, 2018 11:05 pm

Bonearzt wrote:
Fri Jun 15, 2018 8:32 pm
paulyg wrote:
Fri Jun 15, 2018 5:56 pm
Yup, here you go.



Looks like some RC ball-and-socket linkages on the original thumb paddle. I know that Bachs originally had mechanical linkages, and was wondering how straightforward a string linkage conversion would be.
Yes I use R/C parts there, and drop of heavy oil will quiet these linkages nicely!
A string linkage would take a bit of re-configuring, but not terribly difficult!
I would use a King linkage as a model, and will have to change the lever a bit.

Thanks!
Eric
An idea I'm particular to would be to alter the bach paddle to include a Conn french horn linkage arm. Basically trim from a centimeter above where the linkage ball is currently, and drill and tap a hole to accept the screw from a conn linkage. That way the conn horn linkage arm with the delrin insert could be used. I think this would be a better/smoother option than just soldering a rod onto the existing linkage.
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Re: Instrument Innovations Rotary valve

Post by dukesboneman » Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:04 pm

I received my valve and in a week it goes on the horn. Looking forward to how it plays. In the mean time I`m striping the lacquer off the bell
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Re: Instrument Innovations Rotary valve

Post by Walleye » Wed Jun 20, 2018 6:11 am

Here is another variation on the theme.. This set-up uses a Bach paddle. It's very comfortable and responsive..
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Re: Instrument Innovations Rotary valve

Post by pedrombon » Wed Jun 20, 2018 7:44 am

Walleye wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 6:11 am
Here is another variation on the theme.. This set-up uses a Bach paddle. It's very comfortable and responsive..
Can you post more pictures of your linkage (different angles)?

Thanks!
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Re: Instrument Innovations Rotary valve

Post by Walleye » Fri Jun 22, 2018 3:33 pm

Two more pics
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Re: Instrument Innovations Rotary valve

Post by Bonearzt » Fri Jun 22, 2018 7:32 pm

paulyg wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 11:05 pm
Bonearzt wrote:
Fri Jun 15, 2018 8:32 pm
paulyg wrote:
Fri Jun 15, 2018 5:56 pm
An idea I'm particular to would be to alter the bach paddle to include a Conn french horn linkage arm. Basically trim from a centimeter above where the linkage ball is currently, and drill and tap a hole to accept the screw from a conn linkage. That way the conn horn linkage arm with the delrin insert could be used. I think this would be a better/smoother option than just soldering a rod onto the existing linkage.
That would work along with the string linkage, but you would have to rotate the bearing plate 180deg to get the correct rotation of the stop arm.


Eric
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"If you must choose between two evils, choose the one you haven't tried yet."
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