The development of a doubler

ttf_DaCapo · Post by **ttf_DaCapo** » Wed Sep 21, 2016 9:20 pm

I know there are other threads out there regarding the topic of doubling from tenor to bass. What I am curious about though is what others opinions on the matter? There seems to be some who can do it and some who can't, also some who can but choose not to. What I am curious about is how do you think doubling effects a players development? Do you think having the versatility to play both at a high level might even make you more so a better musician? or should the player stick to one in order to develop that particular one alone and not confuse the muscles and the mind when it comes to making the change? Or does it really matter? if you can play both you can play both?

ttf_Burgerbob · Post by **ttf_Burgerbob** » Thu Sep 22, 2016 12:00 am

Not offering much in the way of undeniable truth, sorry.

I have doubled since high school in some fashion or another. I have faded back and forth from being what I think is a pretty good doubler to not being able to play notes on my doubles this whole time. Right now I'm feeling pretty comfortable on my other instruments.

This time, and the other times (I can think of specific examples in my past), my doubling has felt the best when my chops have felt the best all around. When my face acclimates quickly to any rim size. What makes this happen? Honestly, I'm not completely sure. Last year, I was practicing heavily on bass trombone and was making great strides, but could barely play my euphonium or tenor trombones. This year, I played some bass trombone and some marching euphonium (teaching) all summer and I feel great on everything I pick up.

As always, practicing makes the difference. The more time I spend on other horns, the better I get at them. And sometimes, that helps my main instrument too!

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Thu Sep 22, 2016 1:29 am

Two things pop into mind on this topic...

First, more to what I think you are asking about, I believe it does take a certain level of ability to delve into doubling. Of course this is different for each individual, but in general, you would want to be an advanced player. From there its practice to expand the flexibility of your chops. That truly can help one's playing on multiple levels and expand your skills and flexibility as a musician. ultimately, that will likely get you more gigs. But its also a personal choice of being more of a generalist vs a specialist. There's plenty to be said for focusing your efforts on a narrower field. Again, it's a personal choice I think. I'll also throw in that to me, a good measure as one gets better at doubling, is moving away from that doubling mouthpiece and on to a mouthpiece that is more purposeful to the instrument and part.

The second, I'm afraid, is that most of doubling goes from tenor to bass, and unfortunately it seems that many tenor players never learn how to play a bass trombone for the part. Not that they don't develop some chops, learn the valves and the like, but just don't develop an understanding of playing bass trombone. There's plenty of nuance and a different type of listening that takes place with playing a bass trombone part, and that has to be learned too. You have to understand where the instrument lies in the music.

A common joke on this topic is a lead trombone player talking to a bass trombone player after rehearsal, saying hey, your not the one playing lead here. Of course the proper response is, yes I am, I'm the only bass trombone here!

ttf_afugate · Post by **ttf_afugate** » Thu Sep 22, 2016 4:15 am

Doubling was never something I could do until the last couple of years. It was difficult to even make sounds on trumpet for me and even bass bone low end was a struggle. Now, I am comfortable on tuba, bass bone, and tenor. And, on a good day I can play 2 1/2 octaves on trumpet.

What changed? I took a couple of lessons with Doug Elliott. He showed me the correct way to build my embouchure and some exercises to build strength.

My previous embouchure setup/mechanics "worked" for me, in the same way that Lee Trevino's ugly swing "worked" for him in golf, albeit at a much lower standard on my end, of course. But some things were very awkward for me - for example, lip flexibility was always something I struggled with.

No idea if this applies to anyone else but me. But thought I'd mention it.

--Andy in OKC

ttf_LowrBrass · Post by **ttf_LowrBrass** » Thu Sep 22, 2016 5:53 am

Quote from: Remo on Sep 22, 2016, 01:29AM...unfortunately it seems that many tenor players never learn how to play a bass trombone for the part. Not that they don't develop some chops, learn the valves and the like, but just don't develop an understanding of playing bass trombone. There's plenty of nuance and a different type of listening that takes place with playing a bass trombone part, and that has to be learned too. You have to understand where the instrument lies in the music.

A common joke on this topic is a lead trombone player talking to a bass trombone player after rehearsal, saying hey, your not the one playing lead here. Of course the proper response is, yes I am, I'm the only bass trombone here!

As someone who's trying to learn to double on bass... I don't get how this is any different from listening to the balance and adjusting accordingly like you do when you're playing second or lead. Obviously, this means I probably don't understand the nuances. Could you please elaborate?

Re: Is it a good idea for me to be learning bass?

I figure: even if I never manage play bass at a "high" level, it gives me an opportunity to cross-train my low chops and breathing.

Working on bass isn't hurting my tenor playing, as far as I can tell. (But maybe I'm learning bass wrong.)

ttf_Matt K · Post by **ttf_Matt K** » Thu Sep 22, 2016 6:40 am

QuoteNo idea if this applies to anyone else but me. But thought I'd mention it.
The only difference between our experience is that flexibility was never a problem for me, but rather I had a very bright sound. VERY bright. Did matter what instrument I was playing. A few lessons with Doug...

ttf_sterb225 · Post by **ttf_sterb225** » Thu Sep 22, 2016 7:15 am

I started the path to doubling 8 years ago. I am a tenor trombone payer and find that bass is helpful for my tenor playing but not the other way around. That being said, I still find it difficult to have my 'A' chops for either horn available at the same time. Perhaps if I had more time to work on it I would improve that. I will always be a tenor player that doubles on bass and my skills development is driven by the needs of whatever bass rep I am involved in at the moment.

ttf_hyperbolica · Post by **ttf_hyperbolica** » Thu Sep 22, 2016 7:29 am

I had been considering starting a thread just like this one. I'm also starting to double, and wanted to make sure my expectations were realistic. I wouldn't say I play "at a high level", but I'm as good as I'm going to get on tenor. I started doubling because our quartet needed someone who could reliably play into the trigger range. But once you go there, you kind of have to commit to two valves or some music just becomes more difficult to play.

To some extent, I feel that trombone is trombone. Focusing on lower notes and bass parts is an adjustment, but it's not a different world like taking up the harp. The big consideration is if you have time to devote to working both ends of the spectrum, or if you want to limit your involvement to single valve bass.

I'm improving on bass - I get a decent sound down into the pedal range (pedal G is my limit now, but I'm working on that) and my ability to play running lines down under the staff is improving. I'm working mainly on scales, intervals, reading Rochuts down an octave, and some books like Aharoni, Pederson, Ostrander. I also work some of the same stuff I do on tenor just to help become accustomed to the feel (weight/additional air) of the bass.

I took my first task to be to settle on equipment. I have a feeling that the equipment will change over time, but at least I've got stuff I like and can work with, and the search has sort of familiarized me with the range of stuff available. I realized early on that I'm going to need a lot of resistance in the mouthpiece and leadpipe to make the bass work for me. I'm trying to keep the mouthpiece around the 1 1/2G size so it doesn't hog air or effect my tenor chops. If I could play everything with a 2G, I don't think bass would tamper with my tenor chops at all. Plus, I just don't like the boomy, nebulous sound of bigger mouthpieces (1 1/4g, Yeo, Schilke 59+). I guess I'm looking for that 88h feel with two valves. The mouthpieces I've been working with have been VB 2G, Faxx 1 1/2G, DE EUPH 108 J8, Kanstul GR, an unlabeled but excellent mouthpiece from Wessex much like a 2G, but bigger inside rim diameter, and a Ferguson V. My favorite of the group moves between the Wessex, Faxx and the Ferguson. The Wessex is in the horn now.

It takes some time to make these decisions, but I think reasonable equipment selection is one key to effective doubling. For me, it has been the smallest equipment that does everything I need it to do.

For now, my bass playing is limited to trombone quartet and church gigs.

Since picking up the trombone about 3 years ago after 10 years off, my biggest problems have been the strength of my left arm and air supply, both of which are exacerbated by playing bass. Or you could look at it like playing bass forces me to work on those areas. I've been thinking of an ErgoBone and using a taller stool to play, as I'm sure breathing has a good bit to do with posture.

Also, having played 2 valves for a little while now, I have a better appreciation for the Gb/D tuning. Bb triad in first position is nice, and Db in first position t2 is nice (there's more music in 4+ flats than I remembered). I still think I'd get more use from G/Eb tuning, getting "super tenor" sort of use from the independent valves, although pushing low C and B out so far on the slide is a downside.

Anyway, I'm kind of interested in how other amateur/semi-pro doublers have handled the equipment selection, what kind of music you play on bass, and what you're working on to practice. Not to hijack the thread, but to continue the discussion.

ttf_Exzaclee · Post by **ttf_Exzaclee** » Thu Sep 22, 2016 8:03 am

I'm the worst person to ask this question of. For the majority of my professional life, I haven't really seriously considered playing bass at all. I played Bass in high school for a little bit. Other than that, I had no big horn experience for the 12 years I was on the road and playing boats, and it wasn't until a few years ago that I started getting the occasional random call (maybe once or twice a year) for bass. I have been called for a couple of rare jobs in a big band section, I played an actual bass on only one of them. Two of those gigs were recording sessions, both played on tenors with a Faxx 1.5 (the tenors in question were an 88H and a shires with a thayer.)

Guess what? The recordings sounded fine. I sounded better than I normally do on my small horn. There was a low C on one I was really proud of (maybe a bit too proud, it peaked the mic a bit, there's a little bit of crackle on it) and a low B on another that I got a really good piece of and didn't manage to lose the slide. My job was to play in tune, play in time, and put some edge on there when necessary. It wasn't brilliant, and the other guys are going to get called when they are in town. I can livw with that. I'm no bass trombone player. Now Bret Steed, that SOB is becoming quite the bass bone player. Y'all should ask him - he sounds great everytime I hear him. I think he's playing bass on a film scoring session we have next weekend.

I'm more of a dabbler than a doubler. I only seem to end up on bass bone when someone's out of town or they need two, or if someone wants a bass trombone solo on a rhythm changes for some reason. Other than that I'm quite happy over in the 2nd or 3rd chair, and I'll cover the lead book if no one else wants it.

ttf_ChadA · Post by **ttf_ChadA** » Thu Sep 22, 2016 8:19 am

I started doubling in seventh grade and doubled until my junior year of college. I then exclusively played bass for a dozen years or so, then gradually got back into tenor. I'm in my 17th season as a professional orchestral bass trombonist, but I play tenor in 3 professional brass quintets and in the vast majority of my teaching. The following is my opinion.

Playing tenor helps bass playing more than bass playing helps tenor playing. Playing tenor (with a tenor mouthpiece!) requires more subtle nuancing and control of the embouchure which can help bass players. Sometimes, bass players get a little loosey-goosey with embouchure/aperture things because the mouthpiece is so big; at least, I did. Being able to play both horns got me more seat time/experience in college. Being able to play both has helped me professionally. I've played both horns on the same recital a number of times. Going back and forth is less traumatic than it used to be and is no big deal when I'm in good playing shape. For me, the key is playing each horn appropriately: don't play a tenor like a bass and vice versa.

There may be some cases where playing a second instrument can be detrimental to development. If someone is dealing with certain embouchure issues or sound concept issues, for example, introducing a second set of variables may not help. If in doubt, ask your teacher.

ttf_sabutin · Post by **ttf_sabutin** » Thu Sep 22, 2016 8:24 am

If you want to seriously double and you have not been doing so since before you had any idea of what you are doing...which was my case a a doubler on tenor tbn. and tuba from 3rd grade right up through 4 years of college (

)...you need to understand the differences in the way you play the instruments. And I mean the way you play them.

Physically.

Air. Quantity and how it is focused.

Embouchure as it relates to ranges and different sized rims. (If you are going to use different sized rims, of course. I recommend using m'pces that are at least somewhere near the mainstream for given instrument sizes and idioms; others disagree.)

And you also need a strong, cogent set of "models" on your new horn(s), people who play it the way you want to be able to play it.

And this means...at least it has meant for me since I began to try to understand exactly how I had been doubling on tuba when it began to negatively affect my progress on my main small tenor playing...that you need to begin to understand how you play your main axe. Especially where the rubber meets the road...where the lips meet the m'pce rim.

All competent brass players have little shifts that they use to traverse the 2.5+++ octaves that are pretty much absolutely required to be considered a serious player. Mostly we don't "think" about them or consciously create them...they just happen over the learning period from newbie to serious player. That's good, of course...as long as it works well enough for you to be able to play the way you want to play. However, if you want more, you must figure out what you are doing. I have my way...basically freebuzzing and then finding how to put the freebuzz into the horn in a manner that works well with as little adjustment as possible, then connecting the different ranges and settings that ensue using fairly simple Carmine Caruso approaches. Doug Elliott and other Reinhardt-influenced teachers have other ways to get to what I believe to be pretty much the same place, and other broadly successful teaching styles get there other ways...Song and Wind, Tongue and Blow, the many trumpet approaches, almost all of which seem to have very successful proponents.

Exactly "how" to do this on a practical level? How to do it so that it:

1-Works well enough to use the new double

2-Doesn't blow your regular horn out of the water in the process

and

3-Doesn't take 30 years to learn?

I stopped doubling altogether for a number of years. I found at the time...I was a working NYC freelancer in my early 20s and had "lost my chops" and then regained them over a year-long period of working with Carmine Caruso...that playing tuba suddenly affected (in a negative way) what I was working on in my tenor playing, so I sold the tuba I owned to get rid of the temptation to play it and played only one horn and one m'pce (at a time, anyway) for almost a decade. Then Lee Konitz asked me to join his wonderful Nonet on bass trombone. With some trepidation, I said yes, got a bass trombone and started practicing my butt off on it using Carmine's stuff. It worked. It didn't seem to hurt my tenor playing much and...luckily for me...the parts in Lee's band weren't really very low or very loud. They were in the bass range often, but I didn't have to learn how to honk at the time. Over a period of years, I got more than passable on it and started to work as a recording/performing bass tbn./tenor tbn. doubler. Then some tough young students I had been basically teaching for free showed up at my door with a battered Olds BBb tuba that they had essentially stolen from their high school. I stuck my old m'pce in it and it worked almost immediately. Still no bad effects on my tenor playing. Suddenly I'm a tripler. After a while I bought a really good tuba and started working on that as well.

But...I began to notice some bad effects from the tuba playing. Not overall on a daily basis, but if I had to double tuba and tenor on the same gig, as soon as I played a few minutes of tuba my whole tenor feel started to go away. I could play tenor for an hour and then switch to tuba easily, but 5 minutes of tuba would mess up my upper range.

HMMMmmm...

And that's when I first started to think about what I was doing at the lips. Really. It had never entered my mind. I'd been doing it since grammar school. Duh. I could go on here, but I'll keep it simple because over the years I have found that what was happening with me was not the way it happened with many other good doublers. Different "embouchure types" in the Reinhardtian manner have different needs. For me, the simplest way I can put it is that my "reed"...my lips...got much bigger and thicker when I played tuba and then when I went back to tenor I couldn't stuff the bigger reed into the smaller rim.

Duh squared!!!

Once I understood this mechanism I started to consciously practice with that in mind. Again...for me...using Carmine stuff. Back and forth among my (then) three doubles. Get a balance on one; go to one of the others and get a balance on that, then back to the next horn/m'pce combo. Over and over and over.

It worked.

It worked to the point that I found I could do the same thing with any combination of basically six horns...I could play the right instrument for every job.

Eureka!!!

Been doing it ever since.

So...the important part of all this is:

Understand how your embouchure works. Your embouchure. How it works on your main horn through the ranges that your double may require, then what's different when you play your double. And then...back and forth, back and forth with that knowledge.

Works for me...

S.

P.S. By the way...this works up as well. I haven't really pursued it, but for a couple of months...mostly out of curiosity...I messed w/adding trumpet to my stable. Same same. Thinning out the reed so it works on the smaller rim. Duh.

ttf_BMadsen · Post by **ttf_BMadsen** » Thu Sep 22, 2016 8:33 am

Quote from: nicmv on Sep 21, 2016, 09:20PM

I know there are other threads out there regarding the topic of doubling from tenor to bass. What I am curious about though is what others opinions on the matter? There seems to be some who can do it and some who can't, also some who can but choose not to. What I am curious about is how do you think doubling effects a players development? Do you think having the versatility to play both at a high level might even make you more so a better musician? or should the player stick to one in order to develop that particular one alone and not confuse the muscles and the mind when it comes to making the change? Or does it really matter? if you can play both you can play both?

I'd disagree with the thought that there are some that can and some that can't. Because, what I've found being a professional doubler is that it comes down desire, commitment, honesty, and willpower - and you need all four if you are going to expand beyond playing one horn into another (and, that even goes for small to large tenor). It's also about finding the right equipment, which takes time, energy, and money, which can also be a barrier to entry.

Every horn size, every style it's used in has it's own approach to playing, and if you make the commitment to learn how to play each instrument as appropriate to the style you would be called to play it in, then you won't be a very successful doubler (or, you need to know to decline those calls or at least be honest with the contractor).

For example, small tenor is most commonly used in commercial musics (jazz, rock, funk, r&b, etc). It has a different sound concept than the large tenor, which is typically seen in the classical world. I know many a trombonist who play small horns and large horns as if they are the same, and sound like a small horn player on the large bore. If you don't commit to really learning the conception of how to play a large bore, and to get the characteristic sound for the music, you won't get the calls.

I could go on at length about each double that I play, and what I've found, but the reality is, just because you can produce the notes, doesn't mean you can play the horn. And you have to know your limits - I turn down some jobs because I know I can't handle them. If a contractor calls and tells me they are stuck, and I don't think I can handle the gig, I first try guys I know. I only accept jobs I'm not sure I can handle on a horn if we have both exhausted our lists, and then I make sure they know I don't believe I'm right for the gig. Better to save the day at that point, and it preserves your reputation because you were honest from day one.

Does it make me a better musician? I don't know - I think I would probably be a bit better if I focused on one horn, but I have noticed that playing one instrument well has informed my playing on other instruments (my bass and tuba playing has helped with air control, tenor has helped with high range on bass and tuba, and the fact that I can handle long high gigs on tenor means when I play sousa I have chops for days).

I will say this - you know you are successful as a doubler when you start having people think of you only as a "________" player, and you have to remind them you do other things. I have groups that think of me as a tuba player who doubles on tenor, tenor player who doubles on bass bone, bass bone player doubling on tuba, etc. If contractors don't know what your primary instrument is and you are working a lot, it means you've developed enough mastery to call yourself a player of said instrument.

ttf_gregs70 · Post by **ttf_gregs70** » Thu Sep 22, 2016 10:52 am

I guess I was lucky in that I played only a large bore tenor for a good 15 years of high school, college, and a year of semi-pro touring then amateur playing before I found my Holton TR180 on a pawn shop wall. It was not a hard transition for me. Now my primary horn is a small bore King 3B. Probably both came easy to me because I was going from the middle instead of one end of the spectrum.

ttf_Radar · Post by **ttf_Radar** » Thu Sep 22, 2016 12:56 pm

I've always found it easy to go from one low brass instrument to another Tuba, Bass & tenor trombone, or Euph. I even pick up a trumpet from time to time to play taps. With me it is just the need presented itself that I become proficient on a different instrument so I worked on it until it became easy for me. I find that if I want to be proficient switching between multiple brass instruments then I need to practice switching between multiple instruments. I try to practice two instruments a day: I always start with Tuba (Which has really become my favorite, sorry guys!!), then for the second instrument I'll practice Bass trombone, Tenor Trombone, or Euphonium. I'll occasionally pick up the trumpet and play for 15 to 20 mins (that's all the endurance I have on the small mouthpiece, and I'm really not trying to be a proficient player on it, just keep my chops up for occasionally playing taps.

ttf_DaCapo · Post by **ttf_DaCapo** » Thu Sep 22, 2016 6:32 pm

So, I've been doubling since the beginning. Sure, I played tenor through all of elementary and into junior high and high school. Picking up the bass bone my senior year, I discovered my main axe. I still play my tenor like it's just as familiar. I only practice it every so often because I feel the pressure to play one horn at a time. Simply because of the pressure to be able to play all tenor rep on a bass. Which I enjoy thoroughly. But keeps me at a distance from the tenor. I fear it's going to go too deep, and simply wont be able to keep up on my tenor if I ever wanna find work using a tenor. Instead i consider going through as many musical experiences on one horn to reach my highest potential on that horn.I have found playing on two distinctly different mouthpieces works well for doubling it requires a conscious activation that converts the experience in a certain direction(a little different directions for each) both musically, artistically with wind and buzz concepts all the same.

ttf_DaCapo · Post by **ttf_DaCapo** » Thu Jan 05, 2017 9:25 pm

https://youtu.be/xlCvtMQu2jA
This is a cool video just recently posted by Markey regarding doubling.

ttf_LowrBrass · Post by **ttf_LowrBrass** » Fri Jan 06, 2017 4:48 am

Quote from: nicmv on Jan 05, 2017, 09:25PM https://youtu.be/xlCvtMQu2jA
This is a cool video just recently posted by Markey regarding doubling.

He articulates some points I've been struggling to understand. Thanks for posting.

ttf_BMadsen · Post by **ttf_BMadsen** » Fri Jan 06, 2017 5:44 am

Quote from: nicmv on Jan 05, 2017, 09:25PM https://youtu.be/xlCvtMQu2jA
This is a cool video just recently posted by Markey regarding doubling.

It's funny. He starts out by saying that you don't have to relearn how to play a new instrument - but finishes by saying that you have to spend time playing the instrument to learn how to play it naturally.

I think what he doesn't say here (and, he's a fantastic musician - so I don't know why he chooses not to say it) is that the differences in the trombone family are small, so as long as you have a good example of the sound you are trying to achieve in your head, you will figure it out when you practice. Now, that does mean approaching the way you play each instrument differently - if they could all be played the same way, you'd have tenor and bass players jumping around all the time with great sounds and no practicing to develop said sounds. But, because they are closer in relationship since they are the same instrument family, the changes are smaller and more intuitive, making learning the double easier. It also doesn't talk about the fact that he's talking in the same style, where as Sabutin and I were both talking about doubling on a grander scale where you can move in and out of different groups, styles, and instruments fluidly.

When jumping to tuba, it's a whole different ball game, because of the conical nature of the instrument, not to mention larger bore (even larger than bass bone), larger mouthpiece, a change in where you hear the sound from (above you instead of in front of you), learning a new role in the ensemble, etc. That makes it more difficult, and more time is needed to get there.

Ultimately, the more doubles I've learned, the more I've figured out that knowing how players think differently about producing sound on their instrument than I do on tenor bone speeds up my mastery - because I then have a sense of what I'm doing wrong from the first note I play on the double, saving me from hours of experimentation and allowing me to get right to the heart of how to be a "x" player.

Markey's approach is more intuitive - Sabutin and mine is more analytical. Ultimately, they both will work - it comes down to what works for you in your development and willingness to slog through it.

ttf_harrison.t.reed · Post by **ttf_harrison.t.reed** » Fri Jan 06, 2017 6:35 am

Quote from: nicmv on Sep 21, 2016, 09:20PMWhat I am curious about is how do you think doubling effects a players development?
It can hinder development on whichever the musician inevitably decides is not his "primary" instrument. Some peope have the dedication to play both at a high level. Most are just fooling themselves.

QuoteDo you think having the versatility to play both at a high level might even make you more so a better musician?
No. What instrument you play does not make you a musician. Being entertaining and making great music makes you a musician. If you feel your music just has to have harmonica or kazoo solos, then you must play those at a high level as well. But does the addition of harmonica solos in the Decemberist's albums make their main guy a better musician? No, he'd still be awesome without them.

Quoteor should the player stick to one in order to develop that particular one alone and not confuse the muscles and the mind when it comes to making the change?
See above.

QuoteOr does it really matter?
if you can play both you can play both?

Exactly

ttf_bonenick · Post by **ttf_bonenick** » Fri Jan 06, 2017 6:39 am

Quote from: BMadsen on Jan 06, 2017, 05:44AMMarkey's approach is more intuitive - Sabutin and mine is more analytical. Ultimately, they both will work - it comes down to what works for you in your development and willingness to slog through it.
I am another doubler who was doubling in the past and now I am trying to expand the instruments I double on.

Being a trumpeter, I used to double on anything between flugelhorn, B flat to F trumpets, B flat cornet and A/Bflat picc. For a short time I was doubling even on a french horn. Now I am getting into slide tbone - the biggest challenge being the slide technique.

Every of the above mentioned instruments has a different blow and bore, the bell stands on a different distance of my ears and sometimes the register in which is played is also different. I just need to get to know all the specifics of the instrument and choose an approach that works for the specific instrument. I find it very important to have a very specific sound for any instrument I am going to double on (as it was pointed above about role models). As for embouchure - this is just muscle memory for my. I need to spend enough time on all instruments that I intend to use and practice also the switch between them.

ttf_Fishlips · Post by **ttf_Fishlips** » Fri Jan 06, 2017 1:33 pm

"Understand how your embouchure works. Your embouchure. How it works on your main horn through the ranges that your double may require, then what's different when you play your double. And then...back and forth, back and forth with that knowledge."

I agree with SBUTAN wholeheartedly. I played tenor initially, switched to bass in college and played that for 10 years. Then, switched to tenor for about ten years. Now I play both a lot, but will admit I am a better bass player. It all centers in understanding how the embouchure works, keeping the general framework consistent no matter what you are playing, and making it work on every size of trombone. For me, I use it exactly the same way, it's just more compact on tenor than on bass. The bigger the mouthpiece, the more I play "into it", but the embouchure works the same in all. Sure, the set points and shifts are different, but those are minor adjustments you work out and remember while working within the overall framework or model. I can go from a Schilke 59 to a Back 6.5AL and everything in between. Takes a day or two to readjust completely, but it's doable. Some pros have been really good at it - think of how Louis Armstrong and later Maynard Ferguson played both trumpet and trombone so well.

ttf_Fishlips · Post by **ttf_Fishlips** » Fri Jan 06, 2017 1:33 pm

"Understand how your embouchure works. Your embouchure. How it works on your main horn through the ranges that your double may require, then what's different when you play your double. And then...back and forth, back and forth with that knowledge."

I agree with SBUTAN wholeheartedly. I played tenor initially, switched to bass in college and played that for 10 years. Then, switched to tenor for about ten years. Now I play both a lot, but will admit I am a better bass player. It all centers in understanding how the embouchure works, keeping the general framework consistent no matter what you are playing, and making it work on every size of trombone. For me, I use it exactly the same way, it's just more compact on tenor than on bass. The bigger the mouthpiece, the more I play "into it", but the embouchure works the same in all. Sure, the set points and shifts are different, but those are minor adjustments you work out and remember while working within the overall framework or model. I can go from a Schilke 59 to a Back 6.5AL and everything in between. Takes a day or two to readjust completely, but it's doable. Some pros have been really good at it - think of how Louis Armstrong and later Maynard Ferguson played both trumpet and trombone so well.