TromboneChat

OMG those pics are CLASSIC

I'd like to get an opinion on the Olds Special trombone as compared to the Super, Recording, etc. Hopefully from someone who has actually played on one.

Does anyone ever mix different Olds slides and bells and come up with a more pleasing combination?
I took an Olds Super slide and combined it with a Recording bell. It seems to be work great- much more open sound than the 7 1/4 bell of the Super

Quote from: Arrowhead99 on Dec 03, 2015, 08:07PMDoes anyone ever mix different Olds slides and bells and come up with a more pleasing combination?
I took an Olds Super slide and combined it with a Recording bell. It seems to be work great- much more open sound than the 7 1/4 bell of the Super
Do it all the time. 
Super, Recording, Special, Studio, P-15, Ambassador - all interchange.
I like my P-15 slide of the Recording Bell - Monster horn.

A Bach 42B and an Olds Opera - will change slides as well.

T.

I also tried a Williams 6 slide with a Recording bell and it seemed to work fine- no slide screw -still works though....

A couple of points-

The later slides: P-15/ P-16 and Recording are all a bit wider than the narrow smaller bore slides.
P-15/ Recording slides might be 1"+ wider, making it easier to hold against a wider adult neck.
The P-15 and P-16 have Morse taper lead pipes and take non-Olds shanked mouthpieces.

tsmart-- by chance I'm on holidays right now and also sitting in a pile of small bore Olds horns. The one combo I NEVER tried was P15/Recording. It makes absolutely no sense to try it--- light nickle silver slide trying to push that incredibly thick red bell. But I did try it after reading your post from this morning, and you are indeed correct. It is the clear winner. It is even better than the pure 100% Recording, which is a beast to play, and a legit sounding horn. Much lighter sound. Easier to play section stuff I bet.
Who knew?
Well, YOU did!
Thanks.

Quote from: bonesmarsh on Dec 04, 2015, 09:34AMtsmart-- by chance I'm on holidays right now and also sitting in a pile of small bore Olds horns. The one combo I NEVER tried was P15/Recording. It makes absolutely no sense to try it--- light nickle silver slide trying to push that incredibly thick red bell. But I did try it after reading your post from this morning, and you are indeed correct. It is the clear winner. It is even better than the pure 100% Recording, which is a beast to play, and a legit sounding horn. Much lighter sound. Easier to play section stuff I bet.
Who knew?
Well, YOU did!
Thanks.
No sweat. 
I just tried it by chance one day, and what a nice surprise!
It worked GREAT, and surprised the heck out of me.
Back before I stopped playing in the swing band, I used the P-15 slide/Recording Bell combo several times.
A legit MONSTER horn/combo!

 

T.

I've noticed that when I play an Olds Super after awhile my chops tighten up and I start to lose my range. Why is this happening? Doesn't happen with other horns.....
Also, does an Olds Studio have the same tight feel that a Super would?

Quote from: Arrowhead99 on Dec 16, 2015, 03:53PMI've noticed that when I play an Olds Super after awhile my chops tighten up and I start to lose my range. Why is this happening? Doesn't happen with other horns.....
Also, does an Olds Studio have the same tight feel that a Super would?Many Olds trombones tend to blow flat; if you are unconsciously compensating, that could cause you chops to tighten up.

Thanks.
I noticed that my chops don't tighten up on the Recording, only the Super for some reason....

From my experience- A Super is ONLY a super. Same relative size as a King 2B, but the combination of nickle silver and that thick thick red bell makes it a cannon. Regardless of mouthpiece you plug in the sound out the bell is just Super.

A King 2B is a great chameleon. The Super is the exact opposite.
So, your chops do what it wants you to. It runs the show, not you.

Recording? Not so much. Big enough--with a wider slide-- to be more accommodating.
More wiggle room in a Recording, if you will.
A recording will change in timbre depending on mouthpiece. A Super not so much.

That said, all small slides are interchangeable on Olds bones. Try a good shape Ambassador bell on a Super slide. That might give you some idea of how important that red bell is to a Super.

The Studio might be close to a Super slide on an Ambassador bell. Silver slide on yellow bell.

Interesting little mix-up on Ebay here--I wonder if this is how the Hawaiian got it's name.

This guy:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-1918-Vintage-F-E-Olds-Trombone-Excellent-condition-Phoenix-SUPER-RARE-/151892580357

is selling a TIS standard (for way too much money) and he has "Phoenix" in the title. Why? Because he's in Scottsdale, right outside of Phoenix.

This guy:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-F-E-Olds-Trombone-L-A-CAL-patent-apr-2-1912-silver-Phoenix-/301839363096

is selling a similar horn, but he's calling it a "Phoenix model." He explains that he was "told" that it may be a Phoenix model, but I think he just misread the title of the first auction.

Oddly enough, he's also in Arizona.

Quote from: Euphanasia on Jan 03, 2016, 10:47AMInteresting little mix-up on Ebay here--I wonder if this is how the Hawaiian got it's name.

This guy:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-1918-Vintage-F-E-Olds-Trombone-Excellent-condition-Phoenix-SUPER-RARE-/151892580357

is selling a TIS standard (for way too much money) and he has "Phoenix" in the title. Why? Because he's in Scottsdale, right outside of Phoenix.

This guy:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-F-E-Olds-Trombone-L-A-CAL-patent-apr-2-1912-silver-Phoenix-/301839363096

is selling a similar horn, but he's calling it a "Phoenix model." He explains that he was "told" that it may be a Phoenix model, but I think he just misread the title of the first auction.

Oddly enough, he's also in Arizona.
You gonna set him straight?

What would the tonal difference be between the Opera O-23 and the Symphony O-25? I know the O-23 has a slightly smaller bore, but I'm curious about the nickel silver versus the red brass.

I've joined this crowd with a P-22. I've been looking to drop down to one valve for quite sometime. Been searching the forum for months looking it up. FWIW, I've seen no need to cut the horn, to make it play in tune. It plays just fine.

I've found the horn to be balanced quite well. I had a CT release back in '01. My only concern is how to get the rest of the finish off. It's largely off the slide and valve sections already. Anyhow, you Olds guys have helped me make a good purchase that fits my needs.

Finally, I'm curious as to if anybody uses neotech grip on this model, and what their experiences have been like....

Having recently acquired a small collection of small bore horns, I kept just one, my Olds P-16 "Custom Crafted".

Like some other folks on here, I play a rather wide rim.  For me it's an XT104.  1.04" or 26.40 mm.  This would equate to Bach 2.5 size, if they had ever made such a thing.  This goes on a Doug Elliott C cup and shank for these horns.  Mouthpiece choice seems to make my sound change quite a bit as I play on various .500" trombones.  Much more than it seemed to when playing the same rim size (on a G cup) on a few .547" horns I owned.

The .500" horns I sold in favor of keeping my 1979 P-16 were:
Shires 7.75" gold brass S1GM bell and a T00NLW slide - settled on their T00 #2 leadpipe - finest horn I ever played but sold as I scale back on worldly goods heading into retirement years.  Proceeds of that sale bankrolled all these below!
Conn Victor 5H from the late 70's - unbelievably good slide, but the solder-less bell rim was not my thing I guess
King 2B+ 2102PL from early 2000's - if ever a horn was made needing swappable lead pipes, this was it.  What a gorgeous and promising instrument.  I tried an old 7C in it, wow!   However, with my big mouthpiece = no fun for me at all.  Wanted so much to try a more open lead pipe, maybe some day?
Bach LT12 - this horn was awesome, especially in blending with others in a big (or a town) band section.  The medium and low range sound was great, belied its peashooter sldie bore and dimensions.  Lost out to the P-16 only because the P-16 made it easier for me to play high-range legato long phrase ballads.  For me, the winner was....

Olds P-16 = What a spectacular horn!  Sad that they saved their best for so late in the game.  Their catalogs reflected a premium price for the Olds P-16 "Custom Crafted."  Mine had the stock leadpipe made into a pressfit.  It indeed takes standard small shank mouthpieces.  I have tried a Kanstul H16 and a Pilczuk, prefer the stock pipe so far.

Quote from: djcwardog on Oct 12, 2016, 02:56PMOlds P-16 = What a spectacular horn!  Sad that they saved their best for so late in the game.  Their catalogs reflected a premium price for the Olds P-16 "Custom Crafted."  Mine had the stock leadpipe made into a pressfit.  It indeed takes standard small shank mouthpieces.  I have tried a Kanstul H16 and a Pilczuk, prefer the stock pipe so far.

Absolutely agree--P-16 is a masterpiece! I too play large-ish mouthpiece, and partials were so out with Warburton 4GS that I usually play (which is wonderful on another trombone). Got a Hammond 11M to try with it and there is no looking back. I like the stock leadpipe, too (mine was also press fit). The only other leadpipe I have, a Brass Ark 32H replica leadpipe that I use on a Yamaha student trombone, works great in a different way from the original, too. I would use it if I ever play P-16 in an orchestra.

I read somewhere that the stock leadpipe for P-16 was a Herrick design. I wonder how much of other aspects of the design of this trombone as a whole he was involved. It seems very different from any other Olds trombones that I have seen/tried, so I am wondering if there were ever a Herrick trombone, this might be it??

Quote from: schlitzbeer on Apr 02, 2016, 11:24PMFinally, I'm curious as to if anybody uses neotech grip on this model, and what their experiences have been like....

I own a P-24, which is the double-valve version. I got a Neotech grip for it, which I stopped using only because it made reaching for the second valve paddle uncomfortable. However, I don't see why it wouldn't work well for a P-22.

About the P-16. Wonderful horn. Nice low register, sings up high. Slices right through when you need to, blends well when you don't. Responsive. I don't think anyone has mentioned it, but the slide is pretty darn light, too.

Doesn't really play like an Olds at all.

Me, I like the way Olds trombones play and sound (yeah, there's a shocker for you). I'll almost always reach for the P-15 rather than the P-16.

Quote from: bonesmarsh on Dec 16, 2015, 08:08PMFrom my experience- A Super is ONLY a super. Same relative size as a King 2B, but the combination of nickle silver and that thick thick red bell makes it a cannon. Regardless of mouthpiece you plug in the sound out the bell is just Super.

A King 2B is a great chameleon. The Super is the exact opposite.
So, your chops do what it wants you to. It runs the show, not you.

Recording? Not so much. Big enough--with a wider slide-- to be more accommodating.
More wiggle room in a Recording, if you will.
A recording will change in timbre depending on mouthpiece. A Super not so much.

I heard a recording of a solo I played on my Super. I was blown away at how much it sounded like a trumpet. It was a raucous solo section that had the lead players belting and at high volume and high register the Super had an extremely brilliant and cutting timbre. It wasn't my intention to get that hot, but maybe it did what it wanted to. Softer volumes it can be much sweeter.

So yeah, on a Super I sound like me, but me playing a Super.

Quote from: JohnL on Oct 20, 2016, 08:40AMAbout the P-16. Wonderful horn. Nice low register, sings up high. Slices right through when you need to, blends well when you don't. Responsive. I don't think anyone has mentioned it, but the slide is pretty darn light, too.

Doesn't really play like an Olds at all.

Me, I like the way Olds trombones play and sound (yeah, there's a shocker for you). I'll almost always reach for the P-15 rather than the P-16.
I can't help but ask your opinion on how the P15 compares to the P16....
I haven't played either one but hopefully in the next year, if I keep searching for one, it'll appear

Quote from: Arrowhead99 on Oct 20, 2016, 09:09AMI can't help but ask your opinion on how the P15 compares to the P16....Not really something that can be expressed in words - but if you play 'em, it's apples and oranges (or maybe even apples and pine cones).

Quote from: Arrowhead99 on Oct 20, 2016, 09:09AMI can't help but ask your opinion on how the P15 compares to the P16....


I've never played a P-16, but I do own a P-15.
I love my P-15 

Quote from: JohnL on Oct 20, 2016, 09:43AMNot really something that can be expressed in words - but if you play 'em, it's apples and oranges (or maybe even apples and pine cones).

how can they be that different-they're both .500 bore right? Unless apples and pine cones have more in common that previously thought....

Quote from: Arrowhead99 on Oct 20, 2016, 03:30PMhow can they be that different-they're both .500 bore right? Unless apples and pine cones have more in common that previously thought....Well, they both grow on trees. They're certainly more alike than, say, apples and steel belted radials.

Ref. a slightly older 'entry' on P-16s.  Had one for years, used it for Dixieland.  Mine came with a Super slide; along the way I acquired a P-16 slide with a Herrick tuned lp (bought from dj).  It was a great player, this "experienced" novice discovered the meaning of "slotting" with that combo.  (The d-land group 'dissolved' a few years ago: one got too old (>90), another got dementia, one died some time after we'd stopped playing. That left me, the piano player, and the occasional drummer.)

I've always found it amusing when someone says "it's good for Dixie"- what exactly does that mean? Don't get me wrong, I love Dixieland/trad jazz/Nawlins jazz yet I don't think I wouldn't switch horns just because I went from, say, Bourbon Street Parade over to Ornithology, etc...I usually play on a Recording or a Special for any type of non-classical music. For legit stuff I just use my Getzen 3047 AFR....just curious

Re "good for..." in my case that simply meant that it sounded/played distinctly better than a couple of my other horns. 

SUPER. Yes it is but playing a horn without a counter weight is new to me. I can feel the fatigue in my left arm resisting the torque.
How do you other Super players deal with this?
Has anyone tried adding a counterweight? (Would the newer TV shaped CW fit?)
There is the "It was designed that way. Counterweights were not unknown. So it must have been intentional. So deal with it." arguement but ergonomics say otherwise.
It's definitely a beautiful horn that's fun to play.
What say you?
Duff
Seola Creek

Quote from: Douglas Fur on Jan 01, 2017, 02:02PMSUPER. Yes it is but playing a horn without a counter weight is new to me. I can feel the fatigue in my left arm resisting the torque.
How do you other Super players deal with this?
Has anyone tried adding a counterweight? (Would the newer TV shaped CW fit?)

I too recently acquired a 1949 super, and I love the sound...When I mentioned the heavy slide to my instructor, he said I have to muscle it out....It has been better, so it looks like he's right...

Quote from: Douglas Fur on Jan 01, 2017, 02:02PMSUPER. Yes it is but playing a horn without a counter weight is new to me. I can feel the fatigue in my left arm resisting the torque.
How do you other Super players deal with this?
Has anyone tried adding a counterweight? (Would the newer TV shaped CW fit?)
There is the "It was designed that way. Counterweights were not unknown. So it must have been intentional. So deal with it." arguement but ergonomics say otherwise.
It's definitely a beautiful horn that's fun to play.
What say you?
Duff
Seola Creek

Duct tape a D battery to the tuning slide brace and see if that makes it better.  If so, that's about the weight of most after market counterweights.

Quote from: BGuttman on Jan 01, 2017, 02:32PMDuct tape a D battery to the tuning slide brace and see if that makes it better.  If so, that's about the weight of most after market counterweights.

Bruce
I heavy some heavy lead wire (~3/16" fishing tackle) which I wrapped around the tuning slide bow. That helped but dampened the sound. I next tried a CONN sandwhich type CW with the help of some duct tape.
This worked but also seemed to effect the sound. Interestingly it seemed to cut the fluidity moving between notes but B above middle C seemed to slot easier(?).
This got me wondering if others had found adding a counterweight worthwhile.

Duff

Quote from: Douglas Fur on Jan 01, 2017, 04:37PMThis got me wondering if others had found adding a counterweight worthwhile.

Here are just a few threads that touch this topic.

http://tromboneforum.org/index.php/topic,76928.0/all.html
http://tromboneforum.org/index.php/topic,74205.0/all.html
http://tromboneforum.org/index.php/topic,83657.msg1064289.html#msg1064289

In my opinion the effect of adding a counterweight (or two) is like adding weight in other places (e.g. at the mouthpiece (megatone)): More core to the sound, less flexibility.

I joined the Olds crowd this week. Snagged a nice 1949 Special in raw brass.

OK
I was playing around last night and the whim to try my Ambassador slide with my Super caught me. You read about how each metal plays but actually trying it in a close comparison was really interesting. You can read something like "dark tuetonic sound" and it tells you zip. Playing this combination there was a dramatic difference. To throw some words at it the brass slide was "warmer" than the nickel silver. Turning the tables, with the nickel slide  and the Ambassador bell was not as dramatic.

I'm not yet saying this is the way to fly as I'm partial to the designer's original intent but it's an I retesting option.

Duff
Seola Creek.

  I joined a couple years back when I picked up a1960's S23 Old Bass 10" bell modified with a single Axial Flow valve form the Brass Ark. It is all silver plated with tuning in the Bell section. It is dark, powerful with a solid core. If anyone out there is the original owner, I would like to know more about the modifications. It accepts 562 bore leadpipes  easily and the outer slide will fit over my Edwards DB 562/578 inner slide. So I am not sure of what the slide bores are now. One great surprise is that it also fits on my Shires Bass and gives it a great Dense Classical sound . Oddlythe lower tube on the Olds is too small to fit on my Shires DB 562/78 inner slide.
 I got to play a 1950's S23 in Original condition. Wow what a Bass Trombone. Its hard to believe it was a Dual Bore. What were their bore sizes?
  Looking to pick up a Recording Model. I was wondering if the A20(510-525 bore) Ambassador slide would be interchangeable with it or the 8 1/2" Recording w/ F attach.
  THanks, John McKevitt

Were all of the straight Recording models fitted with 'fluted' slides, if not when did it change?

Ambassador Bass ( mine is '58) is small shank and fits all small shank Olds bones like Recording and the likes.
Ambassador bass slide width is Recording width, about 1" wider than a Super and the smaller models.
****
Not sure if the printed specs of 510-525 are anything to be trusted. Every Olds catalogue at www.itsabear.conm lists ALL the Recording, SuperStar and Ambassador basses as .495/ .510...and quite a big .510 at that.

***
My S-23 is a '55 Los Angeles. Stock with a bell a hair larger than 10 1/2". A double trigger horn with a 10 1/2" bell before 1960.
I played a huge red 10 1/2" Bach 50B3LG for over 20 years. My S-23 makes the largest Bach bass feel like a small child's toy or a pbone.
I found it to be quite a difficult horn to play-- until I just sucked it up one day and decided the only way to play it is to forget all of the R&D done post-WWII and just BLOW. It works a lot better if you just pretend it is a German bass, from about 1880, without mods.

I've become a recent member of the club. I have a 192x tenor with TIS, dual bore and counter weight which is attached to the crook.  Serials match on bell and slide 53xx, no slide lock OPPS! Ron Patch of Toronto has done his magic on the slide and my Band director and mentor has removed some dents on the crook of the bell.  The bell is also marked M.  I think it plays awesomely, soft and gentle  to wake up the dead.  Currently finding a Yamaha 48 seems to work well. I don't know what model it might be perhaps they didn't have names for different one back in the day.

Does yours have the bear engraving on the bell?  (Like JohnL's avatar)  I believe that is from the mid 1920s.  Mine does.

I think they just called it Olds back then.  There was a Tuning in Bell model called "Self-Balancing".  Without the counterweight mine would be nearly unplayable

M is the Medium Bore.  Mine is LM (Large-Medium) so it's a little bigger.  I also have an 8" bell, which seems rather unusual.

They are great horns.  Enjoy yours.

Up until the mid-1920's, Olds only made the TIS configuration, so it was just "The Olds Trombone". Once the Self-Balancing was introduced (around 1926), they started calling the TIS configuration the "Standard" model.

Years later, they redesignated the TIS as the "Standard Original" and the Self-Balancing became the "Standard Self-Balancing". Eventually, the TIS tenors vanished completely and the "Standard Self-Balancing" became just the "Standard".

Quote from: BGuttman on Feb 15, 2017, 05:39PMDoes yours have the bear engraving on the bell?  (Like JohnL's avatar)  I believe that is from the mid 1920s.  Mine does.

I think they just called it Olds back then.  There was a Tuning in Bell model called "Self-Balancing".  Without the counterweight mine would be nearly unplayable

M is the Medium Bore.  Mine is LM (Large-Medium) so it's a little bigger.  I also have an 8" bell, which seems rather unusual.

They are great horns.  Enjoy yours.

Yes mine has the bear plus a larger engraving above that. I am enjoying playing it.

Have just added an early 1960s Olds Recording to the stable, alongside my Olds Special. It's in great condition and plays/slots well with my Fischer 12c MP. On a, possibly, related note - does any one know what instruments Kleinhammer used in The Art of Trombone Playing?  Illustrations 12 and 13 look like a Recording. What do you think?

Not a lot of mention of the Studio model.  Any thoughts on this version of the old OLDS?   

Quote from: leec on Apr 22, 2017, 01:32PMNot a lot of mention of the Studio model.  Any thoughts on this version of the old OLDS?   

A few years ago I sold a Studio to a friend.  She tried that one and a Special for abt 3 weeks, rigorous alternating, picked the Studio as the better player.  (Unfortunatly it was stolen a few years later.) 

I have a 1954 Olds Studio, purchased from Euphanasia a few years ago. 
0.485"/0.500" dual-bore slide, 7.5" bell, brass outer slides, yellow brass neck, chrome-plated Nickel-Silver inner slide tubes, Nickel-Silver tuning slide and bell. 

It's a very nice, well-built, robust instrument (especially after a little tweaking of the now-nearly-perfect slide), which I mostly use for Dixieland.  For mouthpiece, I alternate among an authentic Olds 3 or an old Bach 11C or old Bach 7C - still haven't decided which is best.  But I love this trombone! 

I used a P-16 with the Herrick lp slide for many years for dixieland, worked better than any other Olds for me. (The group went bellyup a few years ago, now, the tubist is deceased, the trumpet had to quit and the clarinetist just got too old. I miss the play.)

On a, possibly, related note - does any one know what instruments Kleinhammer used in The Art of Trombone Playing?  Illustrations 12 and 13 look like a Recording. What do you think?

The braces look like a Conn to me.

Sporto I asked the same question on March 16th as I am convinced the horn in this illustrations is a Recording. I think the braces are Olds Recording too as they look like my horn.

I've just added a Special to my small collection.  Dual bore all nickel plated, slide's good after a bath.  Not much talk about the specials, although Mr Kennedy likes them.