joining the "olds" crowd

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Thu Feb 10, 2011 10:36 am

Quote from: sly fox on Feb 10, 2011, 10:32AMdoes anyone know when Olds stopped producing the duaoctagonal slide for the "Super Olds"
Stopped?

I'd assume they made Supers until they shut down.
So...1978, when they closed, is my best guess.

T.

ttf_sly fox · Post by **ttf_sly fox** » Thu Feb 10, 2011 10:41 am

I think you are correct, they produced "Supers" but did they change the slides on them to the normal round tube or continue to use their patented tubes?

Are your factory case really heavy? how long did it take you to get use to the hand grips?

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Thu Feb 10, 2011 12:25 pm

Quote from: sly fox on Feb 10, 2011, 10:41AMI think you are correct, they produced "Supers" but did they change the slides on them to the normal round tube or continue to use their patented tubes?

Are your factory case really heavy? how long did it take you to get use to the hand grips?

I know Recordings kept the fluted tubes - until the end. Makes me wanna assume the Supers did too.
The newest Super i owed, was a 66 - it had fluted tubes.

got used to the hand grips in no time. Like riding a bike, it don't take long to get used to it.

My factory cases, are no heavier than any other really. Except for my F attach horns are heavier of course.

T.

ttf_JohnL · Post by **ttf_JohnL** » Thu Feb 10, 2011 6:32 pm

I think the fluted tubes went by the wayside in the late '60's or early '70's. Sadly, there don't seem to be a lot of Supers or Recordings around from that era, nor are there any catalogs online, so it's hard to tell.

ttf_sly fox · Post by **ttf_sly fox** » Sat Feb 12, 2011 6:31 pm

Hey members of the Olds Crowd. Please stop by Horn-u-copia.net and check out the section on Olds trombones. There is some interesting discussion going on and questions are being asked. Perhaps you might care to help out.

ttf_John Beers Jr. · Post by **ttf_John Beers Jr.** » Sat Feb 12, 2011 7:49 pm

Quote from: sly fox on Feb 03, 2011, 12:34PMpictures where are the pictures

, is your Olds back yet?

just returned from my local repair guy. he is going to do a little touch up and try to limit the deterioratoin of the case. I found an "Olds" #3 mouthpiece at his shop which he is going to let me have at a good rate. I'll check to see which is better, the one I gave the HS with the Fullerton Olds Special or this one and swap if necessary.

Still with my repair dude... but I heard that it was a work in progress. He's the tech that most people in CT go to by choice, and I told him that the Olds was lowest possible priority, so hopefully I'll hear some more some time in the next couple weeks. As Troy pointed out, it was in pretty rough shape when i got it, and probably would have been done long since if I'd decided (read: had the cash) to replace the inners rather than just trying to bang/bend them into playable shape.

I promise pictures when she comes home.

ttf_Doug Elliott · Post by **ttf_Doug Elliott** » Sat Feb 12, 2011 10:29 pm

I took my Recording on a big band gig tonight, sitting next to Joe Jackson on his Williams 6. I haven't played it in decades. We had a good time. I might even take it on an Artie Shaw tour that starts in a few days. But I'll make a shank that fits better... There were a few upper notes that were a little squirrelly, and the shank will probably fix them.

ttf_SilverBone · Post by **ttf_SilverBone** » Sat Feb 12, 2011 11:34 pm

Doug, I'm curious. What made you want to pull out the Recording, especially over using your Williams that would have matched Joe Jackson?

Howard

ttf_JohnL · Post by **ttf_JohnL** » Sun Feb 13, 2011 12:30 am

Quote from: Doug Elliott on Feb 12, 2011, 10:29PMBut I'll make a shank that fits better... Put that into production and you might sell a few...

I'd suggest trying a 3 backbore, even though the upper is only .495".

ttf_Doug Elliott · Post by **ttf_Doug Elliott** » Sun Feb 13, 2011 5:56 am

It was all the talk here about Olds horns, and then trying Troy's. I just never seriously considered playing my first horn again. And the slide has always been a little rough, but right now it's better than my Williams.

People talk about high Ab being a bad note... I never experienced that but I splatted a few last night. High Bb in 3rd is a lot farther out that any of my other horns. Maybe the smaller shank will help. I'll try a 2 and 3.

ttf_JohnL · Post by **ttf_JohnL** » Sun Feb 13, 2011 8:53 am

I had a chance to wring out my latest acquisition yesterday at Bones West (the gang there is used to me wandering in with all sorts of stuff). It came to me all the way from Sweden courtesy TTF member roywenk. .485"/.500", 7.5" bell with an f-attachment, s/n 81xx LLM, bright silver plate. My impression is that it plays fairly big for such a small bore. High notes sing, pedal Bb would frighten small children, and the trigger register works pretty well (caveat: most people might call it stuffy, but I'm used to playing flat-wrap Olds horns). I'd place this one in the "win" column; good thing, too - the last horn I bought (a York) has been a complete disaster.

In my case, I suppose it's "a crowd of Olds".

The current count is sixteen - and that's just the slide trombones. I also have a marching trombone, a baritone, and a trumpet, plus my wife has three Olds French horns. The trumpet will likely be gone soon, traded for another trombone.

At some point soon, I will probably be starting my own loyalist site for Olds, which will eventually include a register, reference material, and feature pages on horns of particular interest, both from my own collection and from others. Although initially concentrating on trombones, I'll probably eventually expand to other instruments (except trumpets - there's already a couple good sites for Olds trumpets).

ttf_pjkpro · Post by **ttf_pjkpro** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 9:42 am

I've been looking for an L.A. Super for about a year now but have been unable to acquire one at a fair

price. With the help of a friend here on TTF I landed two Supers on the same day

. Did not plan on getting both... but I did. Both in very nice condition. One is lacquered the other is not. Both slides turned out much better that I'd hoped... after I cleaned and aligned them. Nice having twin Supers sitting on their stands the living room. Played them both with the Minneapolis Trombone Choir... to much fun. A much better playing horn(for me)compared to the Olds Special... I was a bit surprised by that. The Special's bell rang more than I liked.

http://tromboneforum.org/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=1854
http://tromboneforum.org/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=1858
http://tromboneforum.org/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=1853
http://tromboneforum.org/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=1859

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 9:49 am

Quote from: pjkpro on Feb 21, 2011, 09:42AMWith the help of a friend here on TTF I landed two Supers on the same day

.

ttf_sly fox · Post by **ttf_sly fox** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 10:06 am

Quote from: pjkpro on Feb 21, 2011, 09:42AMI've been looking for an L.A. Super for about a year now but have been unable to acquire one at a fair

price. ...
Yeah, TSmart kept running up the prices on me as well but I finally got mine.

I believe that the Special, although a very good trombone, was not produced as a "professional" model while the Super was at all times.

Do your Super Olds have the "fluted" slides?

http://www.google.com/patents?vid=USPAT2106327&id=zdBNAAAAEBAJ&pg=PA24&dq=2106327#v=onepage&q&f=false

Some of us are trying to determine if the Super Olds maintained their "fluted" slide until the company folded.

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 11:00 am

Quote from: sly fox on Feb 21, 2011, 10:06AMYeah, TSmart kept running up the prices on me as well but I finally got mine.
Now, come on Sly...
I sent you several links on "cheap Supers". But, you never had the funds.

I sent Pete 2 links (about the same price of the links I forwarded you), and he bought both!

None were mine, or ones I was bidding on, or planning to buy...

I tried to hook you up too bro.
We all know attorneys are LOADED!

You just gotta let go of some $$, or dig up those old rusty coffee cans full of $100's - that's buried in your back yard dude.

T.

ttf_pjkpro · Post by **ttf_pjkpro** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 12:37 pm

Quote from: tsmart on Feb 21, 2011, 11:00AMDo your Super Olds have the "fluted" slides?

Yes Sir.

ttf_sly fox · Post by **ttf_sly fox** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 12:47 pm

you don't have to call me sir

just send me money - I've got a kid to put through college starting the fall of '12.

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Tue Feb 22, 2011 5:19 am

Quote from: sly fox on Feb 21, 2011, 12:47PMyou don't have to call me sir

just send me money - I've got a kid to put through college starting the fall of '12.

If I had your money, I'd burn mine for heat in the winter (just hope it's a very short one).

T.

ttf_sly fox · Post by **ttf_sly fox** » Tue Feb 22, 2011 5:22 am

just a reminder T.

you are the one working, and the guy with the W & W.

I'm the one looking for work and funds to send the kid to college in 2012.

ttf_JimArcher · Post by **ttf_JimArcher** » Tue Feb 22, 2011 5:35 am

Quote from: sly fox on Feb 21, 2011, 10:06AM
Some of us are trying to determine if the Super Olds maintained their "fluted" slide until the company folded.

Several years ago, Olds Super No. 1,000,000 sold on eBay with the fluted slide; it was listed as the very last one (maybe the last instrument produced). >$1000 as I recall. (I think I have a hard cy of the listing at home.)

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Tue Feb 22, 2011 10:22 am

Quote from: sly fox on Feb 22, 2011, 05:22AMjust a reminder T.

you are the one working, and the guy with the W & W.

I'm the one looking for work and funds to send the kid to college in 2012.
No... I have a W, and a W&W coming.

I have a son in College right now, and another starting in the fall.

Time to get off your can, and go put some applications in, eh?

T.

ttf_sly fox · Post by **ttf_sly fox** » Tue Feb 22, 2011 10:23 am

PM sent

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Tue Feb 22, 2011 10:33 am

Quote from: sly fox on Feb 22, 2011, 10:23AMPM sent
didn't get it.

Send you one.

Shhhh, keep it secret.

T.

ttf_JohnL · Post by **ttf_JohnL** » Tue Feb 22, 2011 11:39 pm

Quote from: JimArcher on Feb 22, 2011, 05:35AMSeveral years ago, Olds Super No. 1,000,000 sold on eBay with the fluted slide; it was listed as the very last one (maybe the last instrument produced). >$1000 as I recall. (I think I have a hard cy of the listing at home.)I suspect the "last Super" claim might have been eBay hype, but that at least takes fluted slides up to 1977.

ttf_sly fox · Post by **ttf_sly fox** » Fri Mar 04, 2011 8:49 am

just curious, over on horn-u-copia.net, there is an effort to develop a chart showing the development of Olds trombones:

http://www.horn-u-copia.net/cgi-bin/yabb231/YaBB.pl?num=1297094527

Quote from: 212F243E25244A0 link=1297094527/6#6 date=1297475212Ok, this is very rough, but it is a start on a table to start collecting. The data in the chart should be considered to be "what has been found so far" or what we've been told".

I'll make a more readable table later after we have more data and know more about what we want it to include.

Trombone Characteristics Table

are there any members of the "Olds Crowd" willing to help out? If so, jump on over and post your info.

Personally, I would like to know the serial numbers on the bell of the Super Olds trombones which members of the "Olds Crowd" have. Mine is 111xx. It has the 1938 pattened grips

http://www.google.com/patents?vid=USPATD110493&id=vFkCAAAAEBAJ&pg=PP1&dq=D110493#v=onepage&q&f=false

and 1938 pattened "faceted" inner slide:

http://www.google.com/patents?vid=USPAT2106327&id=zdBNAAAAEBAJ&pg=PA24&dq=2106327#v=onepage&q&f=false

does any member have a Super Olds trombone with the 1935 patented "groved" slide or have you ever seen one?

http://www.google.com/patents?id=0Pp9AAAAEBAJ

thanks for any help you can give us.

ttf_JohnL · Post by **ttf_JohnL** » Sun Mar 06, 2011 10:22 am

Since the horn is no longer "on the net", I'm continuing this discussion here.

First impressions of the 1949 Olds Double...

The horn seems to be heavier than my P-24G or even my Benge 290. Part of that might be a balance issue.

The case is massive. Turns out it's a double case - there's a second slide pocket in the lid and ample room for another bell section, along with four spots for mouthpieces. The second slide pocket is pretty narrow - takes a small-bore Olds slide perfectly.

The horn came with four mouthpieces: a stock Olds 15, a large-shank King 11M, another Olds 'piece marked "J-J" (larger than the 15), and a custom 'piece marked "ROE PLIMPTON" and "JAMISON" (it's the largest of the lot). Roe Plimpton was a machinist at Olds for many years and kept fairly detailed records, some of which are in the possession of Robb Stewart. He was able to locate entries from 1944 under Jamison's name, but they don't appear to be for these mouthpieces.

I played it for the entire rehearsal at Bones West yesterday. I tried the Plimpton/Jamison mouthpiece, but ended up using a Faxx 1.5G for most of the time. As expected, the horn plays a bit "small" (it is .553"/.565" dual-bore), but the 9.5" bell broadens the sound a bit. It's hard to judge blend in such a large group, but the horn seemed right at home with the big tenors on the fourth part. The valve linkage is awkward for me; I really have to pay attention to what I'm doing or I mess up, either catching the second rotor lever by accident or not getting it down all the way when I want it. Get both of those rotors down and there's a lot of resistance.

I also had the opportunity to compare the horn side-by-side with a late 1960's S-23. Very similar, but with some noticeable differences. The later horn has the typical late Fullerton Olds valves with the spring under the bearing cap and the single-post bumper under a moving stop plate, while my horn has the LA/Early Fullerton design where the bumpers and spring are in a "can" on the back of the valve. The Fullerton horn has a one-piece brace on the handslide, the LA has a more conventional (and heavier) three-piece brace. The 1949 horn doesn't have a slide lock, and the tenon lock is a clamp (a la Rath) rather than a conventional locking nut.

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Tue Mar 08, 2011 9:18 pm

I just acquired a Super Olds, and man what a player! It's got one of the latest LA serial numbers I've come acrost. Anyway, It has beautiful laquer, still not sure if it has been redone. I guess this is my second olds, but better late than never to join the olds crowd!

Here's the Super, and Opera

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Tue Mar 08, 2011 9:47 pm

I've got a LA Super and a Fullerton Recording. I use the super on all of my jazz gigs now. Fits the sound I had spent many years looking for. Awesome horns!

ttf_JohnL · Post by **ttf_JohnL** » Tue Mar 08, 2011 11:21 pm

Quote from: Solo Sam on Mar 08, 2011, 09:18PMIt's got one of the latest LA serial numbers I've come acrost.The latest number in my database is 588xxx; is yours later?

ttf_Solo Sam · Post by **ttf_Solo Sam** » Tue Mar 08, 2011 11:55 pm

The serial number on the super is 177XXX, and the horn is engraved Los Angeles. From what I've seen, it looks to be 1955. Any other info on that would be much appreciated.

ttf_pjkpro · Post by **ttf_pjkpro** » Wed Mar 09, 2011 1:45 am

Quote from: JohnL on Mar 08, 2011, 11:21PMThe latest number in my database is 588xxx; is yours later?

That would make yours a Fullerton horn I would think.

ttf_JohnL · Post by **ttf_JohnL** » Wed Mar 09, 2011 5:35 pm

Quote from: pjkpro on Mar 09, 2011, 01:45AMThat would make yours a Fullerton horn I would think.Whups. Wasn't paying attention...

ttf_Solo Sam · Post by **ttf_Solo Sam** » Wed Mar 09, 2011 8:22 pm

So if my super is 177XXX, could it simply be a fullerton horn with an LA tone band?

ttf_mdunn · Post by **ttf_mdunn** » Wed Mar 09, 2011 8:55 pm

Quote from: Solo Sam on Mar 09, 2011, 08:22PMSo if my super is 177XXX, could it simply be a fullerton horn with an LA tone band?

My super is also 177XXX and has the LA tone band.
I think that puts it right in the time frame when they moved to Fullerton so maybe it was assembled in Fullerton with LA parts.
Who knows?
I wouldn't fret about it though.
Just enjoy.

ttf_pjkpro · Post by **ttf_pjkpro** » Thu Mar 10, 2011 6:46 am

I'm selling an older Olds 12C MPC if anyone is interested.

http://classifieds.tromboneforum.org/detail.php?id=8791

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Thu Mar 10, 2011 6:51 am

In case anyone has one they wanna part with...

I'm looking for a large shank Olds 15 (or any large shank Olds for that matter).

T.

ttf_JimArcher · Post by **ttf_JimArcher** » Thu Mar 10, 2011 9:30 am

T. E-mail sent.

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Fri Mar 18, 2011 11:58 am

I have been a member of the "Olds Crowd" for a few years. I have a straight Olds Recording manufactured in Los Angeles, Serial # 47xxx on both the bell and slide. It is in excellent condition with some darkening discoloration of the lacquer. It also has Olds Recording counter weight balance and is in a Lifton case. I play it only occasionally anymore.

ttf_JimArcher · Post by **ttf_JimArcher** » Fri Mar 18, 2011 12:46 pm

That Recording cwt is extremely rare, hang on to it. [But should you not like the color..., I'll trade you a plain Olds silver wt for it. Same size.

]

ttf_Revwrona · Post by **ttf_Revwrona** » Fri Mar 18, 2011 9:51 pm

I just found out about this thread and I have a been a part of it since I picked up a trombone again back in November of 2009. I only play and OLDS trombone, mostly because it is the only playable trombone I own and also I love the quality of sound and beauty of the craftsmanship.

Tomorrow I am deep cleaning it, brass polish and the works. Time to make it shine again.

ttf_Offbass · Post by **ttf_Offbass** » Tue Apr 05, 2011 7:52 pm

I'd be interested in the opinion of the knowledgeables: One of my horns, and one that got me restarted playing daily after a 54 year interval, was one I found at flea market last summer for $35 (bargained down from $50). I'm enjoying it thoroughly as a practice instrument when we are at our second place. It is an Olds Special, Los Angeles, serial number 131xxx, 7 1/2" bell, dual bore, probably circa 1953 vintage. It is almost completely dent-free (tuning slide has a little ripple), and the finish is almost all patina (I'm not sure it ever had lacquer, and certainly doesn't look like the many pock-marked Ambassadors I have seen). The main slide is very smooth, but not, of course, in the same class as my new 88HKO. When warmed up it has a very nice high range tone. What do I have? Just another sudent horn? Not bad for an outdoor flea market? A candidate for a wall display in a restaurant? A find? A treasure? It seems that the brass in this horn is very stout. Should I polish it or enjoy the patina?``````````````p

ttf_sly fox · Post by **ttf_sly fox** » Tue Apr 05, 2011 8:00 pm

there are certainly more knowledgable "Olds" people around but I will give it a try. first, if you haven't check out the web sites you can find referenced above in the other posts, you should do so.

An Olds Special was an "intermediate" trombone. The Ambassador was the student horn and the other trombones made at the time for FE Olds & Son at the time were "professional" trombones. Having said that, it has been reputed that the Special was a very special "intermediate" trombone and might well have been as good as other manufacturers' professional models.

http://rouses.net/trumpet/olds57/page7.htm

I had a later one, made in Fullerton with a "rose brass" bell. Had it fixed up and donated to my son's hs band. it was used by the section leader for a jazz horn before he got a '60s 2B

enjoy.

ttf_JimArcher · Post by **ttf_JimArcher** » Tue Apr 05, 2011 9:41 pm

Offbass, your Special was made in the older LA plant, the factory moved to Fullerton ca 1955. The legends say the older horns made in LA were "better" than the later ones. I have an early '47 Special that plays about as well as anything I've owned or played over 12+ years. Hang on to yours, it's likely a "treasure".

[I acquired a 70s Olds "semi-coffin" wood case that came with the student Ambassadors of those years. It provides excellent protection especially with the rigid flap that covers the slide "compartment" in the lid. Ambassadors with that case are usually for sale on eBay for well less than $100; use the horn for a wall decoration or donation to the nearest Goodwill. (And many Ambassadors are excellent horns, good players, they had to be well made to withstand the rigors of student use and abuse.)]

ttf_Offbass · Post by **ttf_Offbass** » Wed Apr 06, 2011 7:52 am

Thanks, Sly and JimA. Yep, I'll keep it. The case sugestion is a good one, and would mesh with my other activity. I have been buying servicable student trombones, cleaning them thoroughly, and donating them to area middle school music programs. Their budgets have been trashed and there a lot of students who can't afford rentals or purchase (I've done 12 so far and four more horns are enroute). SO, I'll keep an eye out for that Ambassador with the good case, keep the case, gift the horn in the generic case I already have, and continue to enjoy the Special. The solidity of it reminds me of a phrase used for a very sturdy model camera, "built like a hockey puck."

Also, my brother found the trombone we both started on, me in 1951, he to follow; it turns out to be a Holton Collegiate that was well used in '51 and by photos is still in fair shape. That one will stay for nostalgia purposes.

ttf_Babcockbone · Post by **ttf_Babcockbone** » Wed Apr 06, 2011 8:47 pm

When I got my first legit "jazz" trombone my sophomore year (2007) I went straight to the Olds club, I still have and play my 1958 Super that had some really expensive floral work done on it and the original owners name is engraved on it (George Young) I have no idea who that guy is but for the amount of work done on the bell, is venture to say he payed a really pretty penny for it. I absolutely love it, I also have a vintage 2b, but there is just something about that horn that I can't get over. On a side note though, it was Wes Funderburk's first pro horn too!!!! He is who I got it from lol!!!!

Welcome to the Olds club!!!!!!!! You will never be disappointed!!!!!

ttf_JohnL · Post by **ttf_JohnL** » Wed Apr 06, 2011 11:23 pm

There's two ways of approaching the manufacture of an "intermediate" horn; one can either start with a professional horn and eliminate some of the high-cost features, or one can start with a student horn an make in fancier. The original Olds Special was most definitely the former - it was produced on the same tooling and to the same tolerances as the much more expensive Super model, but without any of the fancy stuff (no tone ring, yellow brass in place of nickel silver and bronze, non-fluted inners).

ttf_Offbass · Post by **ttf_Offbass** » Sat Apr 09, 2011 9:22 am

Thanks -- I'll definitely keep and use my special Special.

ttf_sly fox · Post by **ttf_sly fox** » Thu Apr 21, 2011 5:54 am

just a bump to move the topic up in case some new "olds" owners have missed it.

a stickie would be nice, wonder if we could lobby for one?

ttf_JohnL · Post by **ttf_JohnL** » Sun Apr 24, 2011 9:20 am

A couple things that might be of interest to Olds fans...

First, my website is now up; www.itsabear.com. I've only got four horns so far, but more will be added soon.

Second - an Olds double that's even old than mine has surfaced (serial number is in the 13,000 range). The current owner was referred to me by Robb Stewart (it's good to know people). He's in communication with a handful of interested parties, trying to learn more about the horn. I've let the owner know that I would like to buy the horn, but he may decide not to sell it, or one of the other parties may get it. I won't name any of the other parties (they can speak for themselves, should they choose to do so); I'll just say that they're all professional trombonists and/or university level trombone educators.

ttf_JimArcher · Post by **ttf_JimArcher** » Sun Apr 24, 2011 10:25 am

John, neat site. E-mail sent.