TromboneChat

Wondering what valves I should look into for a new horn. I currently have a rotary valve but have heard good things about axial flow. I’ve also heard that hagmann valves work well but require a lot of maintenance. Thoughts?

First thing to learn: there is no free lunch. Everything has advantages and disadvantages.

Axial valves are more open in the valve register. Some find them too open.

Bach rotors have a history of being too small. Other makers use rotors that are a better size. Yamaha, Conn, Holton, King, Benge, etc. made rotors that worked fine.

Hagmanns are a new technology and are a bit finicky. Some folks have found them to work great with nearly no maintenance, while others have had no end of problems. The valves are more open than rotors but less open than Axials.

Note that different valves are not like tinker toys, where you just choose one and plug it in. Different makers offer different valves. You need to test the whole package to see what works for you. You may find that one maker's product works better for you, even though it may not be the "optimal" set of features.

I love Trubore Valves, Greenhoe, Rotax but all new rotary valves are so good

Too bad the search function doesn’t work. This has been debated multiple times.

Hagmanns have been around for nearly 35 years, only 12 years fewer than Thayers, so they're not exactly new technology. They do work fantastic, it's just a question of whether or not you like the feel/blow. They're my favourite valve for Bachs and Bach-style instruments. I disagree that they are high maintenance – you just need to oil them regularly (once a week was okay for me), which you should anyway do with any valve. Because you have direct access to the rotor core, they're easier to oil properly than traditional rotors. They are just maybe a bit less tolerant to under-maintenance than certain other designs. On the other hand they are very easy to disassemble and clean for the more in-depth maintenance when giving your horn a bath.

Engineering wise, there are several valves that I love that I won’t advocate for… any valve that requires sealing on two different surfaces. Axials (Thayers), Hagmann, Trubores. These are all great valves. They are what leaves the house with me. Nothing else blows or feels like a Thayer. They’re awesome. I have three. If you like/need that blow, go for it.. but if I choose again, I just won’t do it. Too picky. Same with my Trubores. They aren’t as picky as the Thayers, but still a lot more than just a rotor based valve.

Play some, pick what works, play it for a couple of years and see if it actually works.
Andy

I think of a whole horn as a system. All of the parts work together to create a sound and feel that I want. I've liked axials a lot on some horns, and disliked them at other times. Same with rotors. Currently I'm using independent axials on my Shires bass. I liked them so much that I got a tenor axial section, but it turns out that I didn't like that as much, so I'm currently using a standard rotor on my large bore. I just went up to Shires last week and tried the Alessi rotor and loved it. It was nice and open but very stable. The gold F attachment tuning slide gave the sound extra warmth and density.

masonsat wrote: ↑Mon Apr 22, 2024 5:40 pm Wondering what valves I should look into for a new horn. I currently have a rotary valve but have heard good things about axial flow. I’ve also heard that hagmann valves work well but require a lot of maintenance. Thoughts?

I like Thayer valves. It's the most open blow you can get. If you like a lot of resistance in the valves, then they're not for you. I do have to oil them frequently, which is about once a week, but some players need to oil them even more frequently than that. I clean them about every 6 months.

Hagmanns do require maintenance. They need oil, and they need to be professionally cleaned periodically, and I think that's where players run into problems. The way the parts fit together is rather complicated; a novice is not going to be able to remove and reinstall the valve core correctly. I have run into people who think they can just run water through the valve and that's enough cleaning. That doesn't work. Most of the Hagmanns I work on have gone too long without maintenance and are full of green slime and tarnished black on the surfaces. People tend to wait until the valve starts failing before they do any maintenance. If you don't like getting your instrument serviced, don't get Hagmann valves. But if you are willing to keep up on the maintenance, they are great. Thayers need to be cleaned too, but it's a bit more straightforward to take them apart and put them back together.

My favorite sounding valves I've ever tried are the Infinity or Olsen axial flows on a Bach 50AF3. Unfortunately I've never been able to get past the lack of resistance and long throw that axial flows feature. I understand the appeal behind them but I could never get myself to like the way they play. My favorite valves are the Meinlshcmidt open flow rotors. They are very resonant with a super quick throw. The Bach 42OF plays so well with that valve, but unfortunately they don't/won't make a Bach 50 with that same setup.