TromboneChat

Can anyone share your thoughts on this model? I’m mostly interested in build quality, reliability, and performance. Why are they no longer manufactured?

Thanks

The early ones were well built, but they had intonation issues and sounded a little dull.
The ST-21 was an improvement, but I think Schilke acquiring Greenhoe largely made the ST’s redundant.

chromebone wrote: ↑Wed Apr 03, 2024 8:54 am The early ones were well built, but they had intonation issues and sounded a little dull.
The ST-21 was an improvement, but I think Schilke acquiring Greenhoe largely made the ST’s redundant.

Thanks, so ideally avoid one?

KN0XVILLE wrote: ↑Wed Apr 03, 2024 9:24 am

chromebone wrote: ↑Wed Apr 03, 2024 8:54 am The early ones were well built, but they had intonation issues and sounded a little dull.
The ST-21 was an improvement, but I think Schilke acquiring Greenhoe largely made the ST’s redundant.

Thanks, so ideally avoid one?

Yes

KN0XVILLE wrote: ↑Wed Apr 03, 2024 9:24 am

chromebone wrote: ↑Wed Apr 03, 2024 8:54 am The early ones were well built, but they had intonation issues and sounded a little dull.
The ST-21 was an improvement, but I think Schilke acquiring Greenhoe largely made the ST’s redundant.

Thanks, so ideally avoid one?

No, that's not my experience. There is absolutely NO problem with my ST20, but my horn has a Hagman-valve which could be a big difference. There was a report from the introduction, a test-protocol that I have read somewhere that went wrong and became public, and I think that first blow from the tester completely destroyed the chances for that horn on the market. Of course there could have been some issuses with the first ones (or that first one). According to that tester who did the test the horn was a disaster. The protocol said the trombone played flat. Well, mine is perfectly in tune 442 Hz if I push all in, so that first example he tried might have had an issue. It was a mistake anyway to let that tester loose on the horn since that protocol was easy found on the internet long time. It could as well be something with his playing too, maybe he played the horn flat, and suppose the horn really had an issue? Well, it might have been an easy issue that could be an easy fix. Maybe they fixed it by shortening the tuningslide? Damage was done and bad reputation was set.

My horn is in tune.

Another obsticle was they had no super professional (no real big name) to help promotion in the process. They had ONE professional orchestra player, but I do not remember his name. No Alessi, but professional as employed in a professional symphony orchestra. Not at all famous enough to help. I think he was European, he is also a composer. He had a video where he demonstrated the ST20. He sonded absolutely fantastic. Played the Malcolm Arnold solo-piece in that vid. A shop here in Sweden started to sell them and I tried one. It was a good price for a NEW horn with such great build quality. Guess they decided to try Europe because they did not sell in US. The ST20 was modular with three leadpipes and you could choose different options. I bought the one I tried as is and ordered some extra parts so I now can play the ST20 also as a straight trombone.

Whenever I googled a ST20 I found that single bad comment about the intonation problems.
Well, mine isn't, it is a real good, trombone. I also bought one ST30 wich is their jazz horn. Don't know if they still make them.

Some years after I had bought my ST20 I heard of the ST21. They never shipped them here so I couldn't try I don't know how different they are from a ST20, but one difference is they are not modular. They got good critics. Nothing bad but big names still didn't buy them.

TO OP: Hope that help

/Tom

I had a friend with an axial ST-20, it was a very bad instrument. Out of tune, made almost no sound.

The ST21 is one of the best large bores I've ever tried. I tried 4 of them at ITF one year and was blown away.

I did not have the same experience with the ST20 I tried. It was not great.

Finetales wrote: ↑Wed Apr 03, 2024 10:48 am The ST21 is one of the best large bores I've ever tried. I tried 4 of them at ITF one year and was blown away.

I did not have the same experience with the ST20 I tried. It was not great.

Try before you buy would be essential and maybe better chance it is a good horn if you find one with a Hagman-valve. A too flat horn with almost no sound makes me think there must be a fundamental issue somewhere, and a leaky valve or not aligned valve could couse just such disaster's result. A bad or broken leadpipe could also be a case or bad soldering or a complete impossible design but Schilke knows how to do trumpets so not likely they do not know these things. Anyway since my horn has none of those problems you could find other good ST20's out there too. Also if a ST21 is "one of the best large bore horns" for someone like Finetales then I find it hard to believe Schilke were idiots when they made the ST20. Try it!

/Tom

Even the best companies have duds. Conn 83H for example. That doesn't mean that finding a good one is impossible (see hyperbolica's 83H thread), just a lot less likely. The fact that the ST20 has a bad reputation should be a good indication that even if your horn specifically is a good one, the model as a whole probably has some real issues. The ST20 is one of the most unloved trombone models I can remember, especially one from recent years.

Point is, you may be able to find a good one, but the odds are a lot lower than a horn people generally like.

Finetales wrote: ↑Wed Apr 03, 2024 1:28 pm Even the best companies have duds. Conn 83H for example. That doesn't mean that finding a good one is impossible (see hyperbolica's 83H thread), just a lot less likely. The fact that the ST20 has a bad reputation should be a good indication that even if your horn specifically is a good one, the model as a whole probably has some real issues. The ST20 is one of the most unloved trombone models I can remember, especially one from recent years.

Point is, you may be able to find a good one, but the odds are a lot lower than a horn people generally like.

Yes, unloved but I wonder how many really tried one? They were banned even before they hit the market. Probably very few sold. That early protocol that was widely spread, very easy to find when you googled Schilke and the model number. That was probably what stopped a lot of buyers before they even picked one up. My guess is they changed the model number to ST21 and made it non modular just to try to save the brand. They did not specifically say what they did different from the ST20, they just said it was a new improved model. The ST21 allmost immediately got very good reviews but no explanation about major changes to the design. This was something that puzzled me; that they never admitted there were any specific problems with the first design. My thought was it was only tactical reasons. The fact that the ST21 didn't sell either tells me not even the good reviews helped the brand. It must be something else like bad tactics (what I think)

Just remember one other thing the critics said and that is "the slide was built too tight". The main issues as I remember was "too flat" and "a too tight slide". I googled the model a lot at the time and these were the things said about them. I remember I also read an answer from Schilke that wasn't very professional. There are probably also reasons NOT related to the very trombone and build quality that killed the ST20 such as "not handeling the situation very well".

/Tom

I think they just designed a pretty bad horn.

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Wed Apr 03, 2024 2:10 pm I think they just designed a pretty bad horn.

Could be, but how many did you try? The only one I've played is the one I own and it is very good, but of course as I said my ST20 has a Hagman-valve and they had no trombone with the axial valve in the shop at the time. The three leadpipes are numbered 1, 2 and 3 and they are very different.

/Tom

The proof is in the pudding- plenty of bad reviews, horn pulled from sale, then redesigned.

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Wed Apr 03, 2024 2:32 pm The proof is in the pudding- plenty of bad reviews, horn pulled from sale, then redesigned.

Yes, it is what you could call a failure. Finally I found my self as a real expert on something here, the ST20. Interesting to hear if there are others at the forum who owns one, please let me know what you think and we count noses. How many are we?

/Tom

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Wed Apr 03, 2024 2:32 pm The proof is in the pudding- plenty of bad reviews, horn pulled from sale, then redesigned.

So redesigned as the ST21, but they don’t offer the ST21 with a Thayer?

KN0XVILLE wrote: ↑Wed Apr 03, 2024 6:09 pm

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Wed Apr 03, 2024 2:32 pm The proof is in the pudding- plenty of bad reviews, horn pulled from sale, then redesigned.

So redesigned as the ST21, but they don’t offer the ST21 with a Thayer?

Dunno! 21 was only around for a short time before they started Greenhoe production.

I've done some research on the Shilke trombones so I started a new thread here with what I know of them

viewtopic.php?p=239625#p239625

/Tom