Trombone Stand Height Set-up

[zaidmkhan]

I have a trombone stand, but I wanted to ask how much space should there be between the top of the stand and the part that actually touches the bell? Does more distance make it more stable?

[BGuttman]

If you make that distance too much you may find the stand sticks to the trombone. Make it too small and you find the trombone falls off the stand.

The best distance varies with the model of trombone.

Do a little experimentation.

As a starting point, try 6 to 8 inches (150-200 mm).

[hyperbolica]

I'd give it 5 or 6 inches. More importantly, I'd make the end of the slide just barely touch the ground to take stress off the horn.

[Burgerbob]

Mine are around 8 inches. If you have it down too far, the horn will lean and it puts stress on the inside of the bell where the top part touches.

[ghmerrill]

I'd give it 5 or 6 inches. More importantly, I'd make the end of the slide just barely touch the ground to take stress off the horn.

I understand the thinking there, but I'm more concerned about stress on/through the slide. And the possibility of the stand being accidently pushed and so maybe bending the slide if the end of it is on the floor. So I keep my slides off the floor. A cheesy Hamilton stand I just got recently for my little horn had a spring on it so that the bell support "floats". Unfortunately, the spring was quite weak, and putting even the old Olds small bore on it really compressed it substantially. I replaced it with a stiffer/shorter one from the local hardware store. So it's better, but I'm still vacillating on how I feel about the whole spring idea.

[AtomicClock]

On a Hamilton (which might be the most common stand), this length is set at the factory to 6 1/2 inches (165 mm) from the top of the cup to the tip of the post.

I don't want my slide touching the floor. In fact, I like it pretty high, so there is no danger of crashing into the tripod legs.

[Posaunus]

On a Hamilton (which might be the most common stand), this length is set at the factory to 6 1/2 inches (165 mm) from the top of the cup to the tip of the post.

NOT TRUE. On my Hamilton stands, the cup position is adjustable, with a set screw (either hex-head or slot-head, depending on when it was made).

[AtomicClock]

It's adjustable. But the initial position was set at the factory. Which means it is a tacet recommendation from the good people at Hamilton.

[Posaunus]

It's adjustable. But the initial position was set at the factory. Which means it is a tacet recommendation from the good people at Hamilton.

The "factory default" setting is not optimal for all trombones. Bell flares differ.

[ghmerrill]

... it is a tacet recommendation from the good people at Hamilton.

Or that they just have to pick some arbitrary position for it when they box it and ship it.

[BGuttman]

Or they choose a height that is good for a typical student horn (also good for a Jazz horn).

There us a K&M stand that makes you set the height for the bell dome (I forget the number). It also has a relatively large knob at the end of the post that will get caught in many small bore horns if set improperly. Could be the OP has one of these.

[ghmerrill]

I have one of those K&M stands that I use for my bass, and it is MUCH better than the Hamilton stands I use: higher quality, better design, lower weight -- at least compared to the Hamilton stands I have. It has three adjustment knobs on it, and my only gripe is that for the one that adjusts the bell support, no matter how tightly you set it, it's still possible to push the horn down and cause the bell support to slide down (though this does take some force). Otherwise, it's great. VERY stable.

[rudytbone]

I like to configure my stands so that the bell is sitting on the bell dome and the rod is far enough in the horn to prevent any wobble. Height is set to keep the slide at least 1" above the ground.
This will differ by horn, make and model. I've 3 trombone stands (2 Hamiltons, one with hex screw to set bell dome, one with thumbscrew) and multiple horns with different bell sizes. I pretty much need to individually adjust each for each horn. Much easier to do with the older Hamilton that uses the thumbscrews and not the hex set screw.

[Posaunus]

I like to configure my stands so that the bell is sitting on the bell dome and the rod is far enough in the horn to prevent any wobble. Height is set to keep the slide at least 1" above the ground.
This will differ by horn, make and model. I've 3 trombone stands (2 Hamiltons, one with hex screw to set bell dome, one with thumbscrew) and multiple horns with different bell sizes. I pretty much need to individually adjust each for each horn. Much easier to do with the older Hamilton that uses the thumbscrews and not the hex set screw.

[tbdana]

Mine are around 8 inches. If you have it down too far, the horn will lean and it puts stress on the inside of the bell where the top part touches.

This, for me. You don't want it too long because it will get stuck, but has to be enough to eliminate wobble. About 8"-10" is right for most horns of mine, the longer neck for the bigger horns. I also adjust it so the end of the slide is just barely off the ground, less than an inch.

I have four K&M trombone stands always set up in my studio, each adjusted a little differently depending on the horn it holds. I like it so you can practically (not literally) toss the horn onto the stand and know it's going to be solid but easy to remove.

[Doug Elliott]

I set mine a lot lower. I don't want to lift my horn 10" just to get it off the stand.

[AtomicClock]

On a Hamilton ... 6 1/2 inches (165 mm) from the top of the cup to the tip of the post.

The Hercules store-in-bell stand is about 9 inches. The K&M store-in-bell stand is 9 or greater, depending on where you set the cone.

[BrassSection]

I like to configure my stands so that the bell is sitting on the bell dome and the rod is far enough in the horn to prevent any wobble. Height is set to keep the slide at least 1" above the ground.

What he said. I am always standing when playing, easy to pick off and set back on. Also keep trumpet on a stand when not in use, euph stands nicely on bell, and French horn usually resides on the floor when it’s out

97144DB3-F680-47EF-A40F-DCD8D49BB049.jpeg

. Floor on our platform is carpeted.

[ghmerrill]

Oh, man ... I try NEVER to put a euph or tuba on it's bell. It's like building a trailer park and just waiting for the tornados.

[CalgaryTbone]

I set my stand fairly low, with the slide just off the ground. The higher the stand. the higher the center of gravity, which makes for a higher chance of the stand tipping over if it is bumped into. Also, like Doug said, a higher stand means you have to lift your horn higher up to clear the stand.

Jim Scott

[WGWTR180]

It's adjustable. But the initial position was set at the factory. Which means it is a tacet recommendation from the good people at Hamilton.

That's just silly unless all trombone bell throats are identical. Adjust it to what's best. Also the Hamilton stands are "okay" for a small bore anything. Past that I would never use one. In fact I don't own one anymore.

[WGWTR180]

Oh, man ... I try NEVER to put a euph or tuba on it's bell. It's like building a trailer park and just waiting for the tornados.

I've seen tubas fall over using tuba stands. What do you suggest?

[ghmerrill]

Oh, man ... I try NEVER to put a euph or tuba on it's bell. It's like building a trailer park and just waiting for the tornados.

I've seen tubas fall over using tuba stands. What do you suggest?

If possible, put it in the case -- and out of the way. Even if only for a few minutes this will protect your bell from your own feet, your chair, your section mate's chair, and the many feet of woodwind and high brass players (trombone players tend to be more careful about stepping on other people's bells, but you're ALWAYS taking a chance).

Second, I've rarely had a tuba or a euph that was stable on its bell all by itself. My big Eb with the 1" bell is stable, but that bell takes up a LOT of flour space that some clarinet or trumpet player will want to walk on. My little Eb with it's 17" bell is also stable. But I almost never set them on their bells -- and only for maybe a minute or so beside me when I need hands free quickly. Even then, I'm paranoid about it. If the euph player decides to move his chair, there goes the bell on my horn.

My current primary euph (a Yamaha 641 clone) is just barely stable on its bell and I have had it topple over with what seemed to be just a small vibration in the stage floor. The Cerveny BBb horn I used to have was also not stable on its bell -- a combination of bell size relative to instrument height, etc. -- and that model is perhaps the MOST commonly encountered style of German/Czech tuba.

When I play tuba, I either use a stand (which is about as stable as you can get -- and I've never had a problem) or I get up and put the horn in its case for a few minutes, or (on occasion) will find a protected corner (maybe by a line of string basses) to put it on the bell. But only momentarily, and very rarely. Depends on circumstances.

Just last night, at the end of rehearsal, the tuba player needed to go to the bathroom before he packed up and put his (large St. Pete's BBb) horn on its bell just beside an exit door. I said "I'll stand here and guard your bell," and he thanked me and came back a few minutes later. You just can't leave one of those horns vulnerable. If you were a bassoon player would you lean your bassoon up against the wall for a few minutes? Stand it in a corner? Lay it across a chair or two? I don't think so. Why do the same with your large brass instrument?

Anyhow, that's my approach -- after making a couple of those mistakes myself. It's bad enough for someone to hustle past the front of your stand carrying their clarinet and music and bump your music stand over onto your bass trombone on it's stand on a crowded stage. Some things are really difficult to defend against, but putting a tuba-like instrument on its bell is really asking for it unless you can put it down and pick it up before anyone can can come close to it. I'll do that, but I'm really careful and quick about it.

Also, with a horn that has vertical/upright valves (like typical "British style" euphs and similar Brit and American tubas), you really don't want to put the horn on its bell and have all the condensation in them (and what's in it) drain up into your valve pads and spacers. Not a good idea.

[AtomicClock]

My big Eb with the 1" bell

Woah!

[hyperbolica]

I'd give it 5 or 6 inches. More importantly, I'd make the end of the slide just barely touch the ground to take stress off the horn.

I understand the thinking there, but I'm more concerned about stress on/through the slide. And the possibility of the stand being accidently pushed and so maybe bending the slide if the end of it is on the floor. So I keep my slides off the floor. ...

To me this just trades actual stress that you know is there for theoretical stress on the horn that might happen someday in some situation. If I think my stand is going to slide, well, they're on carpet so I don't think they'll slide.

I've had my horn knocked in such a way that the bell creased right below the main brace gusset. This wouldn't have happened if the slide had been touching the ground.

I've got a bunch of different stands. The K&M are my favorite for stability and adjustability. I've got this weird little aluminum stand which is the most portable. An Aida which is a theoretical winner, but needs adjustment with tools to get it right. I have an old ~1940s stand which is just the worst (only use it when I can put the horn up against the wall in a corner). The stands with the round legs are best because you're less likely to dent the end of the slide. 4 legs are better than 3, stability wise. I don't like the big heavy cymbal-stand bases because of the weight and all the sharp edges. I don't like the On-Stage stands (cheap K&M knockoffs) because the bell adjuster is hard to get a grip on and it gets stuck easily and often.

And then I also have a Hercules handgrip stand. Very stable in the sense that the stand will never tip over, but it doesn't hold the horn in a stable way - the instrument can rotate about the grip. Also, the stand isn't very portable or efficient with weight or storage size.

I have 3 in-bell stands. The funky little aluminum one is the best for carrying in the bell, and actually kind of works for holding a horn, although ironically I never take it outside of the house. The K&M is badly designed, as the folding legs have no tension, and it's hard to move it because the legs just dangle and it takes 3 hands to reset. The Hercules is the best designed, with 4 legs, but its hard to disassemble and reassemble, and the end comes off too easily. But, its very stable. Nothing's perfect. I wind up traveling with my Aida, but I have to take extra care all the slip joints get tightened.

[AtomicClock]

The K&M is badly designed, as the folding legs have no tension, and it's hard to move it because the legs just dangle and it takes 3 hands to reset.

Oftentimes you can give it a spin, and centrifugal force will splay the legs out. One hand!

The Hercules is the best designed, with 4 legs, but its hard to disassemble and reassemble, and the end comes off too easily. But, its very stable.

The Hercules may be stable in that nothing rattles. But its so lightweight and the legs are so short, that the horn is easy to knock over. Ask me how I know! Imho, this (easy to knock over) is far worse than wobbly.

It would be interesting to get a mechanical engineer's assessment of what stability really means. I suspect a lot of what we look for in stands is less about actual horn safety and more about human psychology.

[hyperbolica]

It would be interesting to get a mechanical engineer's assessment of what stability really means. I suspect a lot of what we look for in stands is less about actual horn safety and more about human psychology.

Well, I'm a mechanical engineer. Stability can be measured geometrically when the center of gravity of a system is vertically within the base of support. The closer it is to the center of that base, the more stable. Of course you could get into "stability in what direction", in which case, you might want to measure the least distance from the CoG to the base. On a 3 leg stand, the base of support is a triangle drawn around the ends of the legs. The least stable direction is from the center to the middle of the line between the ends of the legs. The most stable direction is from the center to the end of the leg. A 4 legged stand would have higher minimum stability because the distance from the center to the middle of the line between legs is longer. A circular base is equally stable in all directions.

The higher the CoG, the further it travels laterally when tipped a given angle. So a higher horn position is less stable. But also, the most stable system would be a stand that is infinitely heavy. Obviously, this has other drawbacks, so sheer stability is not exclusively the measure we're after. You have to measure against overall weight. But you also can't have a real circular base because it would be awkward, so you have to factor in portability, which is harder to quantify.

As with most things, there are a series of competing factors which people aren't going to give the same priority in an evaluation.

As for the centripetal force method, I tried it, and had to use 2 hands and it took several revolutions to get up to speed. Wasn't able to make it happen with a single hand. Great idea, though.

And for the psychology, I'm just not qualified to assess that. Different people have different priorities. I used to do a lot of back packing and bike packing, so all of my gear choices are based on weight, cost and function.

paN-V-XT.jpeg

Back row: funky aluminum in-bell stand, std Hamilton, K&M in-bell, Hercules in-bell, K&M 14985
Front row: crappy old stand, Hercules hand-grip stand, On-Stage junk.
My Aida is not shown, as it's in the trunk of the car right now. It essentially sets up like a camera tripod, and made of sturdy aluminum tube, but it is a little fussy.

[ithinknot]

... and sometimes 3 legs will be more stable in practice, because they're definitely all in contact with the floor, which won't be true for 4 on an uneven surface.

All else being equal, portability decreases but stability increases with leg length... as does the risk of a leg getting caught/kicked as someone walks past. You can't win.

[WGWTR180]

I've seen tubas fall over using tuba stands. What do you suggest?

If possible, put it in the case -- and out of the way. Even if only for a few minutes this will protect your bell from your own feet, your chair, your section mate's chair, and the many feet of woodwind and high brass players (trombone players tend to be more careful about stepping on other people's bells, but you're ALWAYS taking a chance).

Second, I've rarely had a tuba or a euph that was stable on its bell all by itself. My big Eb with the 1" bell is stable, but that bell takes up a LOT of flour space that some clarinet or trumpet player will want to walk on. My little Eb with it's 17" bell is also stable. But I almost never set them on their bells -- and only for maybe a minute or so beside me when I need hands free quickly. Even then, I'm paranoid about it. If the euph player decides to move his chair, there goes the bell on my horn.

My current primary euph (a Yamaha 641 clone) is just barely stable on its bell and I have had it topple over with what seemed to be just a small vibration in the stage floor. The Cerveny BBb horn I used to have was also not stable on its bell -- a combination of bell size relative to instrument height, etc. -- and that model is perhaps the MOST commonly encountered style of German/Czech tuba.

When I play tuba, I either use a stand (which is about as stable as you can get -- and I've never had a problem) or I get up and put the horn in its case for a few minutes, or (on occasion) will find a protected corner (maybe by a line of string basses) to put it on the bell. But only momentarily, and very rarely. Depends on circumstances.

Just last night, at the end of rehearsal, the tuba player needed to go to the bathroom before he packed up and put his (large St. Pete's BBb) horn on its bell just beside an exit door. I said "I'll stand here and guard your bell," and he thanked me and came back a few minutes later. You just can't leave one of those horns vulnerable. If you were a bassoon player would you lean your bassoon up against the wall for a few minutes? Stand it in a corner? Lay it across a chair or two? I don't think so. Why do the same with your large brass instrument?

Anyhow, that's my approach -- after making a couple of those mistakes myself. It's bad enough for someone to hustle past the front of your stand carrying their clarinet and music and bump your music stand over onto your bass trombone on it's stand on a crowded stage. Some things are really difficult to defend against, but putting a tuba-like instrument on its bell is really asking for it unless you can put it down and pick it up before anyone can can come close to it. I'll do that, but I'm really careful and quick about it.

Also, with a horn that has vertical/upright valves (like typical "British style" euphs and similar Brit and American tubas), you really don't want to put the horn on its bell and have all the condensation in them (and what's in it) drain up into your valve pads and spacers. Not a good idea.

Well when one is sitting in a Broadway pit it's impossible to put your instrument, tuba in this instance, in the case when you're not playing it. SO mine went on the bell on the floor beside me. One show in particular I played bass trombone, Bb and CC tubas. Both tubas went onto their bells on the floor. If my seating area was the exit row for the brass or anyone else in the pit then I'd either have to move it OR wait until people pass. I've seen and heard about so many tubas going over while using a tuba stand so I'd never use one.
During a break in a rehearsal in a crowded rehearsal space then I would most certainly consider the case.

As far as trombone stands no stand is 100% guaranteed to prevent a trombone from getting knocked over by someone. I use the UMI and the K&M(2 different styles and I use both) for my bass trombones and tenor trombones. I don't need to have something where I can spin it and it sets up like something from Bewitched. One has to use common sense whenever you leave your instrument on a stand unattended.
Many don't and then blame the stand. It's overkill but I even use the UMI for my 2BSS. Each stand is adjusted so each instrument stands up straight with the playing slide about 1/2 inch from the floor when locked. As someone earlier pointed at that way the lifting is kept to a minimum. If you're doubling and have many instrument changes the lifting can get a bit tiring.

But just do what you will. I have a friend that uses all Hamilton stands for all of his bass trombones, etc....
Everytime I see them all sitting there they are leaning. But he likes them so.....

[ssking2b]

I'm using the Woodwind Design carbon fiber tenor trombone stand, and bass trombone stand. I keep the post up the bell about 5-6 inches, and the end of the slide off the floor by at least 1/2 inch. Works well for me. On my Euph I use a Woodwind Design carbon fiber Euphonium stand, slightly modified. Works well for me. On tuba, I either put the horn in it's case or lay it down horizontally. In ALL cases I don't want to invite anyone to brush up against my horn, or accidentally step in or on it. PARANOIA is the key word here. horn stands are for my convenience while playing, not for leaving a horn alone on the stand. If I have to leave it, I ask someone I trust to watch it, or put it in the case. If I have to leave a horn on stage at intermission, I'm the last on off the stage, and the first one back on! PARANOIA!!! But my horns and gigs are worth it!

[BrassSection]

ghmerrill wrote:

Oh, man ... I try NEVER to put a euph or tuba on it's bell. It's like building a trailer park and just waiting for the tornados.

If possible, put it in the case -- and out of the way. Even if only for a few minutes this will protect your bell from your own feet, your chair, your section mate's chair, and the many feet of woodwind and high brass players (trombone players tend to be more careful about stepping on other people's bells, but you're ALWAYS taking a chance).

My current primary euph (a Yamaha 641 clone) is just barely stable on its bell and I have had it topple over with what seemed to be just a small vibration in the stage floor. The Cerveny BBb horn I used to have was also not stable on its bell -- a combination of bell size relative to instrument height, etc. -- and that model is perhaps the MOST commonly encountered style of German/Czech tuba.

Case is not an option. Since I cover all the brass parts, horns need to be ready to go, sometimes one song flows right into next and I switch horns…I even have switched horns in the same song occasionally. Not worried about vibration on the stage, several inches of concrete under the carpet. No traffic near the horns except for myself. Been doing this without issue since the 90s, BUT I know it’s not a guarantee of future events. The only thing that seems to fall on the platform is when somebody forgets to unplug their in-ear connection.

[ghmerrill]

My big Eb with the 1" bell

Woah!

Yeah, that bell really projects -- but with very narrow focus.

But seriously, ... I was in a hurry out of the house to an appointment at that point and didn't proof-read.

19" bell

[ghmerrill]

Well when one is sitting in a Broadway pit it's impossible to put your instrument, tuba in this instance, in the case when you're not playing it. SO mine went on the bell on the floor beside me. ...

Yeah, I've been in that sort of situation as well; and you have to compromise. But for such cases there are actually "tuba stands" that can work very well for both tubas and euphs. I haven't needed one enough to make it, and it's one more thing to lug but ...

The stand is a square piece of plywood (big enough for the bell to rest on). On one corner you create a raised lip that the rim of a bell can slide under. You do need to be careful with the geometry and material of this piece because -- while you want it to basically "hold down" the edge of the bell -- you don't want it to crease or dent the bell. So instead of just standing the horn on its bell on the floor, you slide it in this corner and that stabilizes it from tipping. There are some obvious issues with this, but I've seen a couple of them and they seem to work well. If I had the need, I'd probably make something like this -- or something kind of similar that provide more stability and protection than just setting it on the bell. You could "skeletonize" it by putting large holes in the base, and so reduce its weight (the stand weight not being operative in stabilizing the instrument).

The other thing that I've done with my tubas (but not my euph) is to put on a piece of split vinyl hose as a "rim protector". This allows me to set them down on their bells when I absolutely need to on something like concrete, without abrading them. But its major function on the big Eb bell is to eliminate the ringing that it may otherwise do at certain pitches.

Anyhow, I agree with you that when space is limited, compromises must be made. I've been using a tuba stand (on several different instruments) for probably almost 30 years now and have not had any topple. It's an old Jupiter stand that's basically a clone of the K&M 14940. I've had people bump into a horn that was on the stand, but no toppling or damage. However, I can imagine that a 5/4 or 6/4 (or particularly heavy horn) might not be a good candidate for that.

[officermayo]

Baritone stand purchased from a member of the group. Sorry, but I don't remember their name.

[BrassSection]

My euph always sits on carpet so scratching is not an issue. I can see the benefits of that floor rest, but I can also see bending the edge of the bell if one tries too quickly to pick the horn up. Only issue I ever had with trombone on the stand was former leader pushing my tuning slide down when I wasn’t looking. No big deal, other slide compensated for it!

[officermayo]

Only issue I ever had with trombone on the stand was former leader pushing my tuning slide down when I wasn’t looking. No big deal, other slide compensated for it!

I'm afraid my background as a Marine and retired Correctional Officer would cause me to get fired if any director/leader touched my horn - for any reason.

[BrassSection]

He knew where to draw the line, he didn’t bump my mouthpiece in, like he had done to his own trumpet. Me being on the safety team didn’t hurt either!

[ghmerrill]

Baritone stand purchased from a member of the group. Sorry, but I don't remember their name.

Nice, and easy to make. I would probably weight-reduce it -- especially if for a tuba. Or never take it anywhere. For my home use, I have a foldable guitar stand I modified slightly to use as a euph stand -- but it's not something I'd use around other people.

The problem with all this is that there are risks no matter what you do, and you just have to pick what risk you want to tolerate.