Xeno generations?

[comebackplayer]

There's a Xeno 882u on the local market (in Asia). I can't figure out if it's first gen (1995-2003ish) or one of the still-in-production second gens. I know that what really matters is condition and how it plays, but I'm also curious if:
1. There was a major step up in quality from 1st to 2nd gen?
2. There is a way to know which gen it is?
3. Anyone can comment on the 882u

Basically, I have a good jazz horn and two intermediate-ish trombones (Yamaha 354 and Jupiter 536). I like them but would kind of like to step up to a large bore in decent condition <$1000, and this would fit that.

[sirisobhakya]

As far as I know:

882U is the first gen. Could well be JDM. Old-style rotor linkage (no miniball joint).

882UII is the second gen. Still JDM I think. Has single miniball joint (the thumb-side joint is standard Yamaha double-hinges). Other difference unclear.

882 is the international Xeno and current gen. Larger bell (8 2/3” VS 8 1/2”) and with counterweight.

I have a 882UII but have never tried 882U and 882. Maybe others can chime in.

[comebackplayer]

Thank you so much! I am guessing it's the first generation. I was asking because with trumpets I've seen a clear preference for the second generation, but with trombone I don't know. It's technically the 882UG, so I am guessing it's a gold brass bell and looks like a closed wrap. If there's any hearsay or thoughts, I'd be interested (is it a good valve? is the heavier bell annoying? do the slides hold up?). Thank you again.

[comebackplayer]

Just a quick note that I went ahead and bought the trombone. It looks like it is indeed probably 25 years old, but I just really like it and it's my first true professional or large bore trombone. It doesn't seem to need a lot more air than my medium bore. I feel like the slide is great and it has nice tone. I didn't know what "JDM" is but I'm assuming it's "Japan Domestic Market." I'd seen praise for these close-wrapped instruments, but I think it's a good step up for me.

[trombonegordita]

As far as I know:

... Could well be JDM. Old-style rotor linkage (no miniball joint).

Hi Sirisobhakya - what is JDM?

[Burgerbob]

Japanese Domestic Market

[trombonegordita]

Thanks Burger Bob!!!!

[comebackplayer]

On the local market here there's also a 6420ii Yamaha trombone. It looks at least 10+ years old, but hard to tell. It's another one that I can't find anything on. I'm imagining it's a version of the 640.

[sirisobhakya]

On the local market here there's also a 6420ii Yamaha trombone. It looks at least 10+ years old, but hard to tell. It's another one that I can't find anything on. I'm imagining it's a version of the 640.

4-digit model number was used around late 1970s to at least early 1980s.

My understanding (which might be very wrong) is that they used 3-digit system at first (for example YSL-251, 353, 446, 641, 643, 651, 653, 448, 842, 844 for tenors, and YBL-611, 612, 613 for basses).

This is semi-systematic. The first digit is the level, as always. The second SEEMS to be bell size (1 for 10”, 2 for 9.5”, 4 for 8.5”, 5 for 8” and 7.5”). And the last SEEMS to denote particular model in the lineup which is related to bore size. Most tenors (NOT ALL) follow these rules:

1. Odd number denotes straight and even number denotes rotor
2. 1, 2, 7, 8 are large bore, 3, 4, 5, 6 are either medium/MS bore

So a YSL-842 should be, and is/was, a Custom level horn (8), with a 8.5 inch bell (4), and large bore with rotor (2). A 653 should be, and is/was, a professional level horn (6), with small bell (5), and with medium bore (3).

For basses it seems like they just applied different last digit for different models, but still follow the rule for the first 2 digits. The 611 is a pro level horn (6) with 10” bell (1), while the single-rotor 321 (which evolved to the current 421G) is a standard level horn (3) with 9.5” bell (2).

Then they added 0, maybe just for JDM since I very rarely see the model with 0 outside Japan. So 353 became 3530, 641 became 6410, 842 became 8420, YBL-613 became 6130, and so on. You can still see this type of model number in some parts of the current horns, for example TUNING SLIDE FERRULE UPPER YBL6110R in YBL-620G.

Then they switched back to 3-digit system, but not the same as the old one. And the conversion is inconsistent, as usual. For some tenors they cut 4. So the 6410 became the 610 (large bore, straight), the 6420 became the 620 (large bore, rotor), the 8420 became the 820 (and then evolved further to the current 820GII), and so on. For other tenors and basses they just reverted back to the original system (removes 0) like nothing happened.

And with newer models seemingly arbitrary numbering (like the YBL-622, 822, 830, 835 and YSL-891, 895, 882) and even some overrides the old convention (the 354 comes to mind, itself an evolution of the 353, and also the 613H which has almost nothing to do with the 613 and has 9.5” bell), we arrive at the chaotic system in use today.

[comebackplayer]

That's very helpful. Thank you! I suppose some mystery in life is okay. I'll probably pass on the 6420ii, which looks a version of the 620.