What’s the story on Yeo mpcs?

Bach5G · Post by **Bach5G** » Mon Dec 11, 2023 7:33 pm

I was headed out to a rare rehearsal where I get to play bass trombone. I picked up my Yeo replica to buzz in the car on the way.

At the rehearsal, I ended up playing the Yeo instead of my regular Black 1 & 1/2. I liked the way it sounded in my Benge 290.

Opinions about the Yeo? Pros and cons?

hyperbolica · Post by **hyperbolica** » Mon Dec 11, 2023 7:38 pm

A lot of people think they're bigger than they need to be. Some people like them. They seem to work with some horns better than others. It's like anything - tomayto tomahto

Burgerbob · Post by **Burgerbob** » Mon Dec 11, 2023 8:05 pm

A good piece, but larger and more open than a lot of people probably need. It's a good 1 1/8G size with a big throat. It gives the impression of a wider, darker sound, and can play more "open" than legacy pieces.

The 290 came with a Benge 1 1/4H, I believe, and the Yeo may actually be closer in spec to that piece than the GB.

Posaunus · Post by **Posaunus** » Mon Dec 11, 2023 11:26 pm

Too big for me - but I'm a doubler.

sirisobhakya · Post by **sirisobhakya** » Tue Dec 12, 2023 1:22 am

I am using it and I like it. On the larger size but feels smaller and tighter than 1G for me.

Fun fact: 61D4L feels the same and sounds almost the same if not entirely. The spec on paper is entirely the same (diameter, rim thickness, throat). But the 61D4L is much cheaper since it is not signature series. Con is you cannot have it in gold plated rim-backbore.

spencercarran · Post by **spencercarran** » Tue Dec 12, 2023 8:10 am

There's an article on Douglas Yeo's website about it https://yeodoug.com/resources/faq/faq_t ... piece.html

TL;DR it was an effort to make a more refined/efficient version of the Schilke 60, and in the process it wound up being slightly smaller than the 60. Nice mouthpiece, though I've moved away from it as I spend more time doubling and it really feels better suited to someone who can devote more time to bass trombone exclusively.

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Mon Dec 11, 2023 8:05 pmThe 290 came with a Benge 1 1/4H, I believe, and the Yeo may actually be closer in spec to that piece than the GB.

Without checking on calipers, my Benge 1 1/4H feels somewhat closer to various 1.5-sized pieces than to the Yeo. Pretty decent medium-sized bass piece, works nicely for a lot of big band stuff.

tbonesullivan · Post by **tbonesullivan** » Tue Dec 12, 2023 9:02 am

It's definitely a bigger piece than I usually use, but it does have some very nice playing characteristics. It's got a throat that is not QUITE as big as something like a Hammond, but still fairly large, larger than a Schilke 60 on paper.

I do see a good amount of them "in the wild", especially the silver plated examples, which are definitely economically priced for a "signature" mouthpiece.

Bach5G · Post by **Bach5G** » Tue Dec 12, 2023 9:34 am

8 mm or .315” throat says Yamaha. A quick glance tells me a comparable G Black comes with a choice of .312 or .316. A Schilke 60 is .312”.

bassclef · Post by **bassclef** » Tue Dec 12, 2023 12:29 pm

I gave one an honest try for a while when I was in college. It was too big for me. To me it felt even bigger on the face than it actually is because the high point of the rim contour was more towards the outer edge of the rim. I struggled to get comfortable and not feel like I was falling into it and getting the air sucked out of me like I was buzzing into a running Shop Vac. It seems to work pretty well for some people though.

EZSlider · Post by **EZSlider** » Wed Dec 13, 2023 5:59 am

Picked one up here second hand recently. I had not been playing brass all together for close to two years, as I had been called for wood winds exclusively. After getting back on my 50 A3 I could just not get the thing to sing with my standard equipment. Picked up the Yamaha and a few other pieces here and fell quickly in love with the Yeo.. As I get my chops back up I may end up back on my DE gear..
EZ

Bach5G · Post by **Bach5G** » Wed Dec 13, 2023 11:43 am

I think my Yeo experiment is over. I don’t know if the rim diameter is particularly large, but the throat is definitely too open for me. I’ve given it a few weeks - maybe not long enough - but I don’t particularly like the sound (dull) I’m getting. I never got on at all with a Bach 1 and 1/4 GM that had an 8.1 mm throat.

So back to my G Black 1 and 1/2 for now.

mahlertwo · Post by **mahlertwo** » Thu Dec 14, 2023 5:04 am

tbonesullivan wrote: ↑Tue Dec 12, 2023 9:02 am It's definitely a bigger piece than I usually use, but it does have some very nice playing characteristics. It's got a throat that is not QUITE as big as something like a Hammond, but still fairly large, larger than a Schilke 60 on paper.

I do see a good amount of them "in the wild", especially the silver plated examples, which are definitely economically priced for a "signature" mouthpiece.

I thought the silver ones were branded "Doug Yeo Replica" and the gold ones were "Doug Yeo Signature". I owned a silver one a couple years ago, distinctly remember the word "Replica" associated with it.

harrisonreed · Post by **harrisonreed** » Thu Dec 14, 2023 5:13 am

It's the same piece, just without the gold plate. They do say replica on the silver one.

jpwell · Post by **jpwell** » Fri Dec 15, 2023 7:59 am

I have a gold rim yeo fs

tbonesullivan · Post by **tbonesullivan** » Fri Dec 15, 2023 9:55 am

mahlertwo wrote: ↑Thu Dec 14, 2023 5:04 amI thought the silver ones were branded "Doug Yeo Replica" and the gold ones were "Doug Yeo Signature". I owned a silver one a couple years ago, distinctly remember the word "Replica" associated with it.

The relatively heavy gold plating is supposed to be part of the design, so only the ones with the plating on the rim and interior are the "Signature model" while the silver plated ones are "replicas", even though they are identical otherwise. I don't care for gold plating, so the replica was the only one I was really interested in.

The "replica" is the stock mouthpiece for his signature horn as well.

Bach5G · Post by **Bach5G** » Fri Dec 15, 2023 10:12 am

$70 for the Replica. S220 for the Signature. Approx.

GabrielRice · Post by **GabrielRice** » Fri Dec 15, 2023 10:47 am

Bach5G wrote: ↑Wed Dec 13, 2023 11:43 am I think my Yeo experiment is over. I don’t know if the rim diameter is particularly large, but the throat is definitely too open for me. I’ve given it a few weeks - maybe not long enough - but I don’t particularly like the sound (dull) I’m getting. I never got on at all with a Bach 1 and 1/4 GM that had an 8.1 mm throat.

So back to my G Black 1 and 1/2 for now.

Doug Elliott's large bass sizes have throats significantly smaller than most other comparable pieces, balanced by his backbore taper designs. For me this reduces the "air suck" and physical work needed to play.

If you want to be in the neighborhood of the Yeo with less effort, you might try a 113 or 114 rim with an L or M cup, in either the LB or XB series. My current daily piece is an XB114/L/L10.

Post by **BGuttman** » Fri Dec 15, 2023 10:57 am

Long before there was a Yeo I bought my first bass setup from Doug. It was a LB 114/L/L8. Found out that's nearly identical to the Yeo. I still use the setup, but I've changed to an L7 backbore (not made any more) and a 112 rim. Still plays very well when I'm doing mostly bass.

JeffBone44 · Post by **JeffBone44** » Fri Dec 15, 2023 1:14 pm

I can vouch for the Doug Elliott bass mouthpieces. In orchestra I use exactly the same as Gabe, except I use the XB113 rim. It's similar in size to the Yeo, but more efficient IMO.

harrisonreed · Post by **harrisonreed** » Fri Dec 15, 2023 3:53 pm

BGuttman wrote: ↑Fri Dec 15, 2023 10:57 am Long before there was a Yeo I bought my first bass setup from Doug. It was a LB 114/L/L8. Found out that's nearly identical to the Yeo. I still use the setup, but I've changed to an L7 backbore (not made any more) and a 112 rim. Still plays very well when I'm doing mostly bass.

Does the L8 have a .315" throat though, Bruce?

Crazy4Tbone86 · Post by **Crazy4Tbone86** » Tue Dec 26, 2023 5:49 pm

The throats on Doug Elliott’s bass trombone mouthpieces are much smaller than many of the other makers. I believe his 8 and 9 shanks have throats in the low .300s. I think my N9 is about .302 inch. Doug designs his mouthpieces to be very efficient. I have a new XB 10 shank and it is larger, but probably by only a couple of thousandths.

I’m sure Doug can pipe in about how his mouthpieces are different but we cannot expect him to give away too many secrets.

Posaunus · Post by **Posaunus** » Tue Dec 26, 2023 6:09 pm

Not sure about Doug Elliott's LB or XB bass mouthpieces, but I believe the throat diameters for his MB series Cups and Shanks are 7.49mm (0.295"). They work well for me, but I'm a "doubler," not a real bass trombonist.

WGWTR180 · Post by **WGWTR180** » Wed Dec 27, 2023 10:30 am

It be big. I bet Douglas Yeo loves it!!

Post by **Doug Elliott** » Wed Dec 27, 2023 10:58 am

And by the way, his name is pronounced "Yo"
Not Yee-o

WGWTR180 · Post by **WGWTR180** » Wed Dec 27, 2023 11:01 am

WGWTR180 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 27, 2023 10:30 am It be big. I bet Douglas Yeo loves it!!

Could make for an interesting greeting: "Yo Douglas Yeo!"

AtomicClock · Post by **AtomicClock** » Wed Dec 27, 2023 11:15 am

Crazy4Tbone86 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 26, 2023 5:49 pm I’m sure Doug can pipe in about how his mouthpieces are different but we cannot expect him to give away too many secrets.

I just hope his secrets are preserved when he retires. Or is hit by a bus.

Post by **Doug Elliott** » Wed Dec 27, 2023 11:17 am

Well his website is YeoDoug. .com
=======
I'll stay away from buses.

I can't retire, I'm playing more gigs than ever and enjoying what I'm doing immensely.
But out of town gigs and writing charts takes a lot of time away from making mouthpieces. Or answering emails... Sorry.

marccromme · Post by **marccromme** » Wed Dec 27, 2023 2:42 pm

Played a Yeo replica for a couple of years, it works fine, but settled on GB 1 5/16 and GB 1 1/4,

The GB are similar in size, but gave me better flexibility in and out of double valve range, and pedals. And a bit more focus and sparkling tonal color in the staff.

Even if the GB have visually a larger bore, they do perform fine in the higher register.

At least for me and my Elkhard Holton 181 with axials, or my Conn 112H with Hagmanns.

Still keeping the Yeo as fall back mouthpiece in my instrument case, in case something might happen to the others.

It is quite fine, I just prefer the GBs

Kbiggs · Post by **Kbiggs** » Thu Dec 28, 2023 12:11 pm

marccromme wrote: ↑Wed Dec 27, 2023 2:42 pm Played a Yeo replica for a couple of years, it works fine, but settled on GB 1 5/16 and GB 1 1/4,

The GB are similar in size, but gave me better flexibility in and out of double valve range, and pedals. And a bit more focus and sparkling tonal color in the staff.

Even if the GB have visually a larger bore, they do perform fine in the higher register.

At least for me and my Elkhard Holton 181 with axials, or my Conn 112H with Hagmanns.

Still keeping the Yeo as fall back mouthpiece in my instrument case, in case something might happen to the others.

It is quite fine, I just prefer the GBs

Interesting. I played a Yeo on and off for a few years, and have since switched to a GB 1 5/16th as well, sometimes a Griego-Markey 87, with similar results.

For me, the Yeo mouthpiece was similar to the Monette tenor and bass mouthpieces I played for a while. They kind of force you into playing a certain way and with a certain tone quality. Almost like an orthopedic device. My experience: If you don’t play them with a consistent embouchure completely locked in and set, then they back up, and the sound suffers.

That kind of design is neither good nor bad. What I discovered is that my playing isn’t that perfect and consistent. I need a little leeway in my equipment —perhaps a little wider slotting in the leadpipe or mouthpiece?—so that I can play some notes slightly out of tune (either with my embouchure or my slide) and still sound “good enough.”* Rather than helping me focus and produce a consistent sound, I tried manipulating the Yeo and Monette mouthpieces (and other equipment I was using at the time) to force myself into consistency. Of course, the opposite happened, and I developed some habits that I’m still correcting. YMMV.

Do I think the Yeo is a good bass mouthpiece? Yes. It’s a unique design, and it has a good middle-of-the-road large-ish bass mouthpiece sound and response. Is it for any student looking for a larger mouthpiece? No. Some will benefit from using it, and others won’t, just like any mouthpiece.

*No, my intonation isn’t perfect, like other aspects of my technique. Nobody’s intonation is perfect, even people with so-called perfect pitch. Is my intonation good? Yes. Are there some things that need work? Yes. Am I working on it and is it getting better? Yes.

*****
I want to be sure that people don’t think I’m disparaging Monette and his mouthpieces and instruments. I applaud Monette for his willingness to buck tradition and look for different ways to design and build trumpets and brass mouthpieces. They help some people play better. Yes, when people play Monette trumpets and mouthpieces they sound different, just like any other piece of equipment. Also, the players that play his equipment and sound good can really sound GREAT! And—again, my personal experience—some people who play his equipment sound only as good as anyone else. Just another way to say it’s the player, not the equipment…

TomInME · Post by **TomInME** » Fri Jan 12, 2024 10:46 pm

Just picked up a replica (silver) last week after feeling like I had grown out of my longtime Bach 1.25GM, and while I didn't get the "where have you been all my life" sensation, I believe it is a very, very good mouthpiece for full-time (ish) bass players. For $70, I don't know if there's anything better.
vs the 1G, there's no comparison. It has a high range (the 1 doesn't), and the rim doesn't cut my face up.
vs the 1.25GM, the high range is ever so slightly less, but the cup is more comfortable and overall, I'm finding the Yeo a lot more forgiving anywhere below high B-flat. I definitely noticed the smaller throat/backbore vs the .319"/800S and feel like I can't really dump air through it when I want like I could with the Bach, but I'm appreciating the extra cup space and that's giving me a bit more substance on the double-trigger notes which balances that out a bit.

I will stick with it for a few weeks at minimum before exploring a DE. But the Yeo was absolutely worth the money as a way to figure out where to go to, and it's not far off.

EZSlider · Post by **EZSlider** » Sat Jan 13, 2024 9:35 am

The Yeo was fun and got me through a few months of getting my face back in shape but I am back on my DE gear.. 112 lexan LB L8 and loving it! Yeo will probably stick around unless I find someone who needs it.. Gold does feel nice though.
EZ

ssking2b · Post by **ssking2b** » Mon Jan 15, 2024 1:27 pm

Had a Yeo piece in the early 2000’s. I never liked it. It always felt stuffy and dead to me. I gave it to a friend who loves it. Go figure…

Mr412 · Post by **Mr412** » Mon Jan 15, 2024 1:39 pm

I know! I would love to love mine! But I can't get a tight seal on it over F in the staff, no matter what I do; move it around, puff my cheeks, etc. It sure makes the low notes come out easy, though. But I don't really like the sound either; too foofy and not tromboney enough for what I want to do and sound like on bass! Sure do like the Yamaha 59, though! Great sound and I can get all of the low notes out if I approach them right.

I think a lot of us have a "break point" on large mpc size. For me, it's the Yamaha 59 (or equiv). Bigger than that just doesn't get me where I want to be.

Bach5G · Post by **Bach5G** » Mon Jan 15, 2024 2:07 pm

Break point is a good way to put it. For me it’s around 28.5 mm/Schilke 59.

TomInME · Post by **TomInME** » Tue Jan 16, 2024 7:39 pm

ssking2b wrote: ↑Mon Jan 15, 2024 1:27 pm Had a Yeo piece in the early 2000’s. I never liked it. It always felt stuffy and dead to me. I gave it to a friend who loves it. Go figure…

It does feel heavy to me (too much metal), and I do feel more resistance than what I'm used to, but there are a lot of other things to like. My first big band rehearsal since getting it was a couple of days ago and I had to work harder to get things to sizzle, but got more punch on the low trigger notes so that's not a terrible trade. Getting up around high b-flats wasn't bad either. A little more sparkle would be nice though.

ssking2b · Post by **ssking2b** » Thu Jan 18, 2024 9:45 am

Am now using a Parker Steve Dunkel mouthpiece.

http://www.parkermouthpieces.com/trombo ... mouthpiece

It’s huge, but its the daily driver right now.

TomInME · Post by **TomInME** » Fri Jan 19, 2024 6:48 pm

Switched to a bigger leadpipe and "stuffy" isn't a word I would use anymore. Counterintuitively, it seems a little brighter? High range is definitely less bright than the 1 1/4GM though.

TomInME · Post by **TomInME** » Fri Jan 19, 2024 6:50 pm

ssking2b wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2024 9:45 am Am now using a Parker Steve Dunkel mouthpiece.

http://www.parkermouthpieces.com/trombo ... mouthpiece

It’s huge, but its the daily driver right now.

"extended depth" and the smallest rim is 29.5 - that's big, all right.

This doesn't compute though:
Bore Size 0.317 (in)
Bore Size 7.44 (mm)

Posaunus · Post by **Posaunus** » Fri Jan 19, 2024 7:00 pm

TomInME wrote: ↑Fri Jan 19, 2024 6:50 pm
ssking2b wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2024 9:45 am Am now using a Parker Steve Dunkel mouthpiece.

http://www.parkermouthpieces.com/trombo ... mouthpiece

It’s huge, but its the daily driver right now.
"extended depth" and the smallest rim is 29.5 - that's big, all right.

This doesn't compute though:
Bore Size 0.317 (in)
Bore Size 7.44 (mm)

Nope.
0.317 in = 8.05 mm
7.44 mm = 0.293 in

ssking2b · Post by **ssking2b** » Wed Jan 24, 2024 6:07 am

If those numbers are on the website it must be a mistake. I have noticed Parker’s website does have some inconsistencies from time to time. None the less, the piece is great. I will be using it Thursday night for a Blood Sweat and Tears nostalgia band that I play tenor, bass, and tuba in. I love it

ssking2b · Post by **ssking2b** » Wed Jan 24, 2024 6:16 am

I just went and took a look at the Parker site.The bass bone mouthpiece is the only one with strange numbers. I’m pretty sure the 0.317 is the throat size of the piece. Who knows what the other number is? The Throat size on a MArcinliewicz 105 is 0.316…so that probably is the throat size. The 7.44mm is unidentifiable. That hugh monster plays like a dream IF you can handle something that big.

RustBeltBass · Post by **RustBeltBass** » Wed Jan 24, 2024 10:02 am

Sorry to contribute to talking about a mouthpiece other than the Yeo but in regards to the Parker, I have to say that it is a very, very efficient mouthpiece despite its size. 29.5 is usually a bit too much for me and I am most happy around the 29.3 sized mouthpieces but this thing is very easy to handle compared to anything else I tried in that range. Looks beautiful too.

TomInME · Post by **TomInME** » Sun Jan 28, 2024 6:43 pm

RustBeltBass wrote: ↑Wed Jan 24, 2024 10:02 am in regards to the Parker, I have to say that it is a very, very efficient mouthpiece despite its size. 29.5 is usually a bit too much for me and I am most happy around the 29.3 sized mouthpieces but this thing is very easy to handle compared to anything else I tried in that range.

Did you try any Doug Elliot's in that range? That's where I'm likely headed next - although I'm pretty happy with the Yeo so far.

RustBeltBass · Post by **RustBeltBass** » Mon Jan 29, 2024 12:15 pm

TomInME wrote: ↑Sun Jan 28, 2024 6:43 pm
RustBeltBass wrote: ↑Wed Jan 24, 2024 10:02 am in regards to the Parker, I have to say that it is a very, very efficient mouthpiece despite its size. 29.5 is usually a bit too much for me and I am most happy around the 29.3 sized mouthpieces but this thing is very easy to handle compared to anything else I tried in that range.
Did you try any Doug Elliot's in that range? That's where I'm likely headed next - although I'm pretty happy with the Yeo so far.

The only DE mouthpiece I somewhat regularly payed was his contrabass model, the P-cup. (Yes, he really called it that). Very rewarding, in my humble opinion.

I have one DE bass trombone set up in that size which is very good, esspecially efficiency wise, but not preferable to other models I had. However, I chose the set up by myself though, with what I thought would make most sense based on his website, not with any of his input. So with his guidance I might have been able to find something working even better and would definity try it that way if i was looking again. I would definitely recommend trying his work.

TomInME · Post by **TomInME** » Wed Jan 31, 2024 10:29 pm

RustBeltBass wrote: ↑Mon Jan 29, 2024 12:15 pm I have one DE bass trombone set up in that size which is very good, esspecially efficiency wise, but not preferable to other models I had. However, I chose the set up by myself though, with what I thought would make most sense based on his website, not with any of his input. So with his guidance I might have been able to find something working even better and would definity try it that way if i was looking again. I would definitely recommend trying his work.

Thanks! I'll take any advice he has and I plan to try several combinations before choosing a final configuration - his return policy is sensible and will give me a month to mess around.
The Yeo and new leadpipe are starting to settle in - in another couple weeks I think I'll have enough perspective to have a rough idea where to go next.

musicofnote · Post by **musicofnote** » Thu Feb 01, 2024 12:00 am

I tried a Yeo replica (silver version) when my Yamaha 822g was new and found it was way too big for me. Upper range nonexistent and low range flat and flabby.

I went back and forth between Wedge 108G and 110G, and between the .280" and .300" throat and they worked for 3-4 weeks each until I tried switching to the other and ... it would work better. I always felt "If only I could get something in the middle": The closest I tried - and am going to try it again - was a Greg Black 1 7/16, but I always felt that that, at the time was lacking a slight bit of resistence I needed. But it's cup diameter is closest to a Wedge 109 (or visa-versa).

At the end of the day, there is no perfect, best mouthpiece, only if you're lucky, the perfect, best mouthpiece for your chops/way of playing. So the question "What's the story on Yeo Mpcs?" is still not answered. It's a great mouthpiece when it works and a paper weight when it doesn't. Like pretty much any mouthpiece.

TomInME · Post by **TomInME** » Thu Feb 01, 2024 7:33 pm

musicofnote wrote: ↑Thu Feb 01, 2024 12:00 amIt's a great mouthpiece when it works and a paper weight when it doesn't. Like pretty much any mouthpiece.

True, but I think it's good enough (and inexpensive enough) to be a reference point similar to the 1 1/2 G, filling the space of "significantly bigger than the 1 1/2, but not nearly as hard to deal with as the Schilke 60 or the 1G".

I'm pretty sure that for me, it will end up in the paper weight category, but I'll keep it handy as one of those "try this" mouthpieces when someone is curious about going big. It was worth the money just to see where to go next.

Indi830 · Post by **Indi830** » Mon Feb 05, 2024 2:48 pm

I play a Yamaha Xeno 830 which I love and get compliments on the sound (i bought it new about 6 years ago and from reading other chat here I must have gotten a good one).
Anyway I've never been totally happy with the Yamaha 59 it shipped with. After reading here and with what's easily available to order online (I'm down under so not everything is easy to get/try) i decided to order the Yeo replica. So far it seems to be a great match. Opened up the low range, and volume, still have my high range (which was never great to start with. G above staff about tops me out. I can go higher but not with any consistency or security.)
I also play tuba with a little local band so the bigger MP doesn't bother me.
I'm strictly amateur, play for enjoyment. As noted above, the Yeo has some really nice characteristics. I'm finding articulations are much easier and cleaner. Intervals and moving around the horn overall much easier. And down low is so much more open and full. Love it. Gets a thumbs up from me.
Thanks to everyone for all the great knowledge shared within the forums I found a MP that works for me and my horn, that's easy to acquire and great value.

Macbone1 · Post by **Macbone1** » Mon Feb 05, 2024 8:33 pm

Too large for me. I like the comfy rim though.

TomInME · Post by **TomInME** » Wed Feb 07, 2024 8:35 am

Indi830 wrote: ↑Mon Feb 05, 2024 2:48 pm I play a Yamaha Xeno 830 which I love ...
Anyway I've never been totally happy with the Yamaha 59 ... i decided to order the Yeo replica. ... Opened up the low range, and volume, still have my high range (which was never great to start with. G above staff about tops me out.

Makes sense that the Yeo might pair well with Yamahas. And again: $70 is hard to beat for something that definitely isn't junk (Bach's are $85), even if it doesn't match the $250+ rigs.

High range might/WILL take some time - took me a month of consistent practice to get my extended high range back (yesterday). Playing high is still a heavier lift than the 1 1/4GM, but it's there, and doesn't feel as tough as it did initially. Probably in a few more more months I won't notice anything lost, but by then I'll have a DE. The Yeo was still worth it for figuring out where I want to end up.

Loving the sound of my double-trigger B's now though - it's a really special note, more dense than any other.