Marshall Gilkes Warmup

[mbarbier]

I remember there being a thread about the Marshall Gilkes mouthpiece and just a lot of general love of his work. Came across this warm-up routine he made (and video of it). Just wanted to share as figured there'd be interested parties, if they don't already know about it. Been totally kicking my butt the last few days!

https://www.marshallgilkes.com/store/c7 ... utine.html


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wId2tLDXYs

[hyperbolica]

He didn't look like he even took interest until it went over high Bb. I really liked the intervals section. The one part started to sound like Marstellar exercises. It's incredible how he flows through the ranges seemingly effortlessly. There's a lot to pick up just watching him play. Thanks for the link.

MG was in my area this past winter and for one reason or another I didn't go. Still kicking myself for that. It was a small event too.

[Olofson]

A very nice warmup, the best I´ve seen in many years. A very good buy!

[Scotzen]

Thanks for sharing. It's a great routine, but it is also great to have his playing as a model.

[mbarbier]

Y'all're most welcome! It's amazing how much ease he can play it with. I love getting to hear players like that play their version of basics.

[baileyman]

I wonder why the whole thing is in classical style. It seems like it would be useful to apply some hip rhythms to the notes.

[imsevimse]

Thanks for sharing. It's a great routine, but it is also great to have his playing as a model.

Yes, interesting to hear someone that good play just the basic routines. Just to see they do it, and get their energy. Very inspiring. Often when the masters perform we only get to hear the real difficult stuff, things that are compleatly out of reach for most players.

/Tom

[Matt K]

I wonder why the whole thing is in classical style. It seems like it would be useful to apply some hip rhythms to the notes.

Heard an interview with John Fedchock and evidently his warm-up is pretty 'straight ahead' too. When I need to be in maintenance mode, I tend to do that as well even though I do mostly commercial stuff. Sprinkle in some excerpts to keep my chops in shape too.

[baileyman]

I wonder why the whole thing is in classical style. It seems like it would be useful to apply some hip rhythms to the notes.

Heard an interview with John Fedchock and evidently his warm-up is pretty 'straight ahead' too. When I need to be in maintenance mode, I tend to do that as well even though I do mostly commercial stuff. Sprinkle in some excerpts to keep my chops in shape too.

The inspiration for my wondering is this:

https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1Ys411d766/

When a guy like that says what he does and it's completely contrary to what everyone else does, well, that presents a challenge. Separately I found a fellow telling a story about a clinic where the warmup question was asked, and the same answer ensued. Once could be pulling someone's leg. Twice seems like serious business.

[imsevimse]

The inspiration for my wondering is this:

https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1Ys411d766/

When a guy like that says what he does and it's completely contrary to what everyone else does, well, that presents a challenge. Separately I found a fellow telling a story about a clinic where the warmup question was asked, and the same answer ensued. Once could be pulling someone's leg. Twice seems like serious business.

I think we need to look at this from both the individual perspective as from the statistc point of view. For an specific induvidual this is the best warmup ever but in general according to statistic (what moster people do) it isn't a very good warmup.

Lol It made me laugh!

/Tom

[mbarbier]

I wonder why the whole thing is in classical style. It seems like it would be useful to apply some hip rhythms to the notes.

Just my opinion, but I don't really read it as being in a classical style. It seems like it's more playing simply and focused on coordinating all the physical systems of playing rather than playing in any specific style.

It seems, at least in my experience, a lot of the lessons I've had with players who are active jazz players and general freelancers, seem to warmup up/focus on similar things. It's always made sense to my brain in thinking of it as neutral- like it's just a basic square note that comes from even articulations and blow, then you can shape it to be whatever you need. Seems more difficult to start with something in a specific style and then remove it to change styles. If that makes sense?

[baileyman]

I wonder why the whole thing is in classical style. It seems like it would be useful to apply some hip rhythms to the notes.

Just my opinion, but I don't really read it as being in a classical style. It seems like it's more playing simply and focused on coordinating all the physical systems of playing rather than playing in any specific style.

It seems, at least in my experience, a lot of the lessons I've had with players who are active jazz players and general freelancers, seem to warmup up/focus on similar things. It's always made sense to my brain in thinking of it as neutral- like it's just a basic square note that comes from even articulations and blow, then you can shape it to be whatever you need. Seems more difficult to start with something in a specific style and then remove it to change styles. If that makes sense?

Yes, I think that view makes a lot of sense.

Yet it seems spending so much regular practice time on the simple and focused also means playing downbeats, one and three, without lilt, without swing, without flitting across the partials like a dirtbike racer over the small hills. It seems to me that kind of style training, which is incidental to the routine, could be detrimental to someone focused on swing improvisation. Perhaps it accounts for how often the trombone improvisor is on the downbeat, without much in the way of approach figures, without much rhythmic variety, or perhaps how often honking but with great sound. That's what I hear, anyway.

Maybe this isn't so important in the commercial style area where in fact a guy would be hired to play a lot of halves and wholes with small bore sound. Maybe this would only be important to the improvisor.

[ngrinder]

Just my opinion, but I don't really read it as being in a classical style. It seems like it's more playing simply and focused on coordinating all the physical systems of playing rather than playing in any specific style.

It seems, at least in my experience, a lot of the lessons I've had with players who are active jazz players and general freelancers, seem to warmup up/focus on similar things. It's always made sense to my brain in thinking of it as neutral- like it's just a basic square note that comes from even articulations and blow, then you can shape it to be whatever you need. Seems more difficult to start with something in a specific style and then remove it to change styles. If that makes sense?

It seems to me that kind of style training, which is incidental to the routine, could be detrimental to someone focused on swing improvisation. Perhaps it accounts for how often the trombone improvisor is on the downbeat, without much in the way of approach figures, without much rhythmic variety, or perhaps how often honking but with great sound. That's what I hear, anyway.

Where are you hearing this? Which new recordings or performances have you listened to which made you think this?

[baileyman]

It seems to me that kind of style training, which is incidental to the routine, could be detrimental to someone focused on swing improvisation. Perhaps it accounts for how often the trombone improvisor is on the downbeat, without much in the way of approach figures, without much rhythmic variety, or perhaps how often honking but with great sound. That's what I hear, anyway.

Where are you hearing this? Which new recordings or performances have you listened to which made you think this?

I'm sorry.

Where have you not?

[ngrinder]

Where are you hearing this? Which new recordings or performances have you listened to which made you think this?

I'm sorry.

Where have you not?

Well, Marshall, for one.

Ryan Keberle's Considerando

Rob Edward's Upswing

Javier Nero's Kemet

Alan Ferber's Up High, Down Low

Those are all new releases this year, and from my perspective none of them fall into the category: "on the downbeat, without much in the way of approach figures, without much rhythmic variety, or perhaps how often honking but with great sound."

If you've been keeping up with these albums and modern trombone in general and that's what you hear, to each their own. It just hasn't been my experience listening to these folks and many others.

[WilliamLang]

If jazz is a living art, it will change over time.

[tbdana]

I wonder why the whole thing is in classical style. It seems like it would be useful to apply some hip rhythms to the notes.

Yet it seems spending so much regular practice time on the simple and focused also means playing downbeats, one and three, without lilt, without swing, without flitting across the partials like a dirtbike racer over the small hills. It seems to me that kind of style training, which is incidental to the routine, could be detrimental to someone focused on swing improvisation.

This doesn't seem like classical style, to me. Every trombone player I've ever known, regardless of how they view themselves, does some version of this.

To me, this is just playing basic exercises on the trombone. It's like an athlete limbering up, a runner doing wind sprints, a basketball player practicing free throws and three-point shots and doing suicide drills. It's just basics, and serves as the foundation for whatever you want to play in music, but is not music itself.

What about it seems "classical" to you, other than everything starting on a downbeat, and how in the world would it be detrimental to improvisation? I've heard similar warmups from Carl Fontana, Frank Rosolino, Bill Watrous, Andy Martin, Bob McChesney, etc. Doesn't seem to harm any of them.

[JacobsianApostle]

I see what baileyman is getting at but I think the general dearth of great improvising trombonists is more a matter of what we aren’t practicing enough (harmonic movement, rhythmic vocabulary) rather than what we’re practicing too much.

That being said, I don’t like how this warm up spends so much time and face energy on drills. One of the whole benefits of understanding and reinforcing good playing mechanics is that it allows you to spend less time and energy on drills and get more quickly to playing music, whether that be repertoire or working on tunes or transcribing or whatnot.


Also there are so many ways to practice scales alone that you can be creatively and intellectually stimulated while still working on “basics”. A full half hour routine that’s set in stone doesn’t seem to me like the best use of energy.

[baileyman]

I'm sorry.

Where have you not?

Well, Marshall, for one.

Ryan Keberle's Considerando

Rob Edward's Upswing

Javier Nero's Kemet

Alan Ferber's Up High, Down Low

Those are all new releases this year, and from my perspective none of them fall into the category: "on the downbeat, without much in the way of approach figures, without much rhythmic variety, or perhaps how often honking but with great sound."

If you've been keeping up with these albums and modern trombone in general and that's what you hear, to each their own. It just hasn't been my experience listening to these folks and many others.

Thanks much for this. A very good morning of listening.

I have not heard many of these players. Some of them have admirable time and variety, as you said. Ferber's Nonet is amazing. While I think I can hear what you're saying in them, I don't find myself wanting to listen to them, except for Edwards, but that's personal I suppose. Edwards plays much closer to my own imagination. I'm glad to hear people succeeding on rhythm, though. ( Well, except for Keberle, though it may just be me who cannot find the time in his stuff.)

Gilkes is really beyond category. Incidentally, related to another topic elsewhere, he explains his tongue as "dutter", similar to the "dither" I have tried and failed at. And for this topic he says: "My daily routine is pretty much rooted in classical stuff." https://8thposition.wordpress.com/2014/ ... -gilkes/2/ His stuff is too far away to get started on, like Rosolino. I'd like to hear some standards from him, though.

[musicofnote]

My $.02

Learning about what people do for warm-ups is interesting. Learning WHY they do this, that or the other is also interesting - actually even more so. In the course of my career (which is now over due to sporadic old-age lip tremors that come and go) I've experimented a LOT and have come across specific exercises which I can use to really warm up my entire playing apparatus from lips to air intake and output to bodily "feels" to actual sound to extended registers to articulations. It incorporates many things and leaves out many more, yet works opitmally for ME as my own individual player.

In my younger days, what I noticed was, that the quickest thing that could literally destroy my playing for a session or even a day, was to warm-up according to someone else's notion of what the best warm-up is, so I began to studiously avoid any masterclasses, workshops, courses that consisted of or even started out with group "warm-ups". I've lived a content, happy, even prosperous life ever since. (grin) But again, that's just my $.02

[imsevimse]

My $.02

Learning about what people do for warm-ups is interesting. Learning WHY they do this, that or the other is also interesting - actually even more so. In the course of my career (which is now over due to sporadic old-age lip tremors that come and go) I've experimented a LOT and have come across specific exercises which I can use to really warm up my entire playing apparatus from lips to air intake and output to bodily "feels" to actual sound to extended registers to articulations. It incorporates many things and leaves out many more, yet works opitmally for ME as my own individual player.

In my younger days, what I noticed was, that the quickest thing that could literally destroy my playing for a session or even a day, was to warm-up according to someone else's notion of what the best warm-up is, so I began to studiously avoid any masterclasses, workshops, courses that consisted of or even started out with group "warm-ups". I've lived a content, happy, even prosperous life ever since. (grin) But again, that's just my $.02

I fully agree. Best is to as fast as possible get to the point you can be your own teacher, that's when new things really can start to happen.There are of course two sides of the coin. When is that point reached? Good analyze

/Tom

[tbdana]

I don't know if this is a distinction anyone else agrees with, but I draw a line between a "warmup" and a "daily routine."

IMHO a warmup just gets you ready to play and should take no more than 10 minutes. Like an athlete you do enough motion to warm the muscles (long tones), do some stretching (arpeggios), and a few wind sprints (scales, intervals and licks) to get ready to make your body perform. Then you're done. 10 minutes tops. The purpose is to get ready to play.

A daily routine usually takes about 30-40 minutes and incorporates all those same long tones, arpeggios, intervals, etc., but pushes them farther, exercises your chops over the entire range both directions, and adds a few more exercises. It's a workout, not a warmup. It keeps your chops focused, strong, agile, gives you range and facility. Like going to the gym and lifting weights. The purpose is to make/keep your chops strong and agile, and keep them centered and consistent.

To me, Gilkes' routine thing is the latter. It's way too much for a warmup.

Or does everyone do 35-minute warmups and I'm just out of step?

[Bach5G]

“don't know if this is a distinction anyone else agrees with, but I draw a line between a "warmup" and a "daily routine.”

I was thinking the same thing but figured that maybe for Marshall it is just a warmup.

[imsevimse]

“don't know if this is a distinction anyone else agrees with, but I draw a line between a "warmup" and a "daily routine.”

I was thinking the same thing but figured that maybe for Marshall it is just a warmup.

Yes, my warmup is less than 5 minutes but I guess some think of a warmup the way I think of a daily workout.
When I was younger I considered my warmup to be about 40 minutes. If I had not done all that then I thought I was not going to be able to perform. It changed. Maybe M Gilkes needs that long routine before he can perform the stuff he is performing which is way more advanced than what I'm doing.

/Tom

[timothy42b]

I don't know if this is a distinction anyone else agrees with, but I draw a line between a "warmup" and a "daily routine."


To me, Gilkes' routine thing is the latter. It's way too much for a warmup.

Or does everyone do 35-minute warmups and I'm just out of step?

That was my thought too. It seemed more of a routine than a warmup.

It also seemed a struggle to play continuously and finish in 35 minutes. I've tried it a couple times now. My normal time for something like that would be at least twice that. But I rest a lot between short playing sections - well not really resting because I fit my exercise routine in that way. And I couldn't play the flexibility section that fast. I can get up to the F but at nowhere near that speed.

I am curious about the tone changes as he nears the extremes in the legato scale section. There are notes in each scale as he gets way up there that just sound different, like when a soprano has to change the vowel to get response.

[ngrinder]

Well, Marshall, for one.

Ryan Keberle's Considerando

Rob Edward's Upswing

Javier Nero's Kemet

Alan Ferber's Up High, Down Low

Those are all new releases this year, and from my perspective none of them fall into the category: "on the downbeat, without much in the way of approach figures, without much rhythmic variety, or perhaps how often honking but with great sound."

If you've been keeping up with these albums and modern trombone in general and that's what you hear, to each their own. It just hasn't been my experience listening to these folks and many others.

Thanks much for this. A very good morning of listening.

I have not heard many of these players. Some of them have admirable time and variety, as you said. Ferber's Nonet is amazing. While I think I can hear what you're saying in them, I don't find myself wanting to listen to them, except for Edwards, but that's personal I suppose. Edwards plays much closer to my own imagination. I'm glad to hear people succeeding on rhythm, though. ( Well, except for Keberle, though it may just be me who cannot find the time in his stuff.)

Glad you enjoyed some of it!

[jazztonight]

Thanks to mbarbier for posting this. I sprung for the ten bucks and inserted the pages into a binder where I keep the Remington and Paul the Trombonist daily + warmup exercises.

I've been a musician my entire life, but a trombonist for only 5 years. EVERY exercise, scale, etude, study, song, part, etc., is a learning experience for me. Since I've also played the flute, I transposed the Reichert 7 Daily Exercises to bass clef and include a page of those in my daily session.

I call my daily practice a "session." It includes warmups, long tones, lip slurs, scales, and something from Rubank, Remington, Reichert, Tyrell, the Arban phrasing songs, Rochut, Aebersold, and improvisation with and without charts. Once a week I play some trumpet/trombone duets with a trumpet friend of mine who can read very well but can't improvise; we play some Shuebruk duets from 100 years ago that I found online.

I also listen every day to recordings by great jazz trombonists, both living and gone. Gilkes approach is novel, and he says some of it comes from his teacher, Buddy Baker.

I have an excellent trombone teacher, who is known for his jazz work as well as his symphony and commercial playing.

It's all good, it's all valuable, and it's up to each of us to determine how we want to spend our practice time and ANY time we have remaining, right?

[Doug Elliott]

What constitutes a warmup or practice routine depends on where you are in your development, what you're doing correctly or incorrectly for your own face, and what else you have already done that day, the day before, or that week.

Many players need time to warm up into all the incorrect stuff they're used to doing. When you're playing totally correctly you don't need much warmup, if any.

Somebody like Marshall or anybody else putting out a book of warmups doesn't mean that's really what he does himself.

[WGWTR180]

I wonder why the whole thing is in classical style. It seems like it would be useful to apply some hip rhythms to the notes.

Warmups should be straight ahead. If one is fundamentally sound the "flashy" stuff will always be there. I know people who warmup with the "licks" and cannot attack or sustain notes properly.

[CalgaryTbone]

Sometimes, the word "warm-up" is used in routines like this, where much of the material is actually "maintenance" and "technical practice". I'm sure that the easiest 5 - 10 minutes of what Marshall put on this video is really what constitutes an actual warm-up, but much of the rest of it is made up of exercises that he has used to help develop his range, flexibility and technique to such a high level, and what he uses to maintain all of that.

A great bit of advice that Joe Alessi gave to the participants at one of the Seminars I went to was to get there early and do your own routine before the Group Warm-ups. Everybody has things that they do that addresses some personal issue or need in their playing, and somebody else's warm-up may skip that or address some other area that aren't relevant. Still, it's great to go through other people's routines from time to time to get new ideas, and discover new ways to work on an issue.

I liked watching Marshall's video because it is really a window into how he practices, and how he has developed such control over the instrument. It's definitely not just talent or luck - there is an incredible work ethic there.

Jim Scott

[baileyman]

I wonder why the whole thing is in classical style. It seems like it would be useful to apply some hip rhythms to the notes.

Warmups should be straight ahead. If one is fundamentally sound the "flashy" stuff will always be there. I know people who warmup with the "licks" and cannot attack or sustain notes properly.

Further, in a jazz context, if one spends so much time playing square, it seems likely to come out the horn that way in solo. I think I hear this all the time. Someone may clearly work on sound, range, honkin' volume, tonguing in powers of 2, use of air for swoopy range effects, because that's the stuff that comes out of their horn well. What doesn't come out is indicating the time, syncopation, offbeat figures, swing feel, melody, indicating the harmony, so I assume most people don't practice these things.

[WGWTR180]

Warmups should be straight ahead. If one is fundamentally sound the "flashy" stuff will always be there. I know people who warmup with the "licks" and cannot attack or sustain notes properly.

Further, in a jazz context, if one spends so much time playing square, it seems likely to come out the horn that way in solo. I think I hear this all the time. Someone may clearly work on sound, range, honkin' volume, tonguing in powers of 2, use of air for swoopy range effects, because that's the stuff that comes out of their horn well. What doesn't come out is indicating the time, syncopation, offbeat figures, swing feel, melody, indicating the harmony, so I assume most people don't practice these things.

Maybe but that's on the player to work on after they've "warmed up."

[Matt K]

Further, in a jazz context, if one spends so much time playing square, it seems likely to come out the horn that way in solo. I think I hear this all the time. Someone may clearly work on sound, range, honkin' volume, tonguing in powers of 2, use of air for swoopy range effects, because that's the stuff that comes out of their horn well. What doesn't come out is indicating the time, syncopation, offbeat figures, swing feel, melody, indicating the harmony, so I assume most people don't practice these things.

Maybe but that's on the player to work on after they've "warmed up."

Breaking out the Arbans book isn't going to hurt you. Although, agreed, that if that's all you do, you won't get better at things other than that.