TromboneChat

I’m really wanting to learn tenor clef and I’m having some trouble starting so I was going to try to transpose some rochut’s but I did not know how the keys transferred over.
Do the keys stay the same or do they change?
Thanks

Take away 1 flat or add a sharp. I always get confused when reading rochuts in tenor when they throw in accidentals. It helps to know the tune well in bass clef first.

Yes, add one sharp/remove a flat to the key signature. Accidentals stay the same except those in front of what you imagine is an F (and was originally a B), where flat now means F natural, natural means F sharp, and sharp means F double sharp.

The trick is to remember, everything is a perfect fifth higher. So if your key is Bb in bass clef, converting up a P5 to tenor puts you in the key of F.

Every note is also a P5 higher. So if you have a written B, it's an F#.

Some people use other mnemonic devices, but I find the direct transposition to be the easiest, at least for bass to tenor clef. I don't think that way when reading an Eb treble part (e.g. bari sax) though.

The suggestions above apply to READING a part written in bass clef as if it were written in tenor clef. Reading a bass clef part as tenor clef and dropping it an octave works out to be a great way to get material in the trigger register.

If you want to TRANSCRIBE into tenor clef the key stays the same and the 4th line (up) of the tenor clef corresponds to C one line above the bass clef.

Another odd fact (just to add to the confusion): a Bb Treble Clef part (like for a trumpet, tenor sax, or clarinet) can be read as if it were tenor clef, but you have to add two flats or remove two sharps. There are two odd accidentals: "B#" is actually B natural and "B natural" is Bb. Same goes for "E#" is E natural and "E natural" is Eb. In this case the parts come out right and you can play duets with a player of that instrument.

If you are trying to rewrite the bass clef music in tenor, there is no key change. Trombone is concert pitch in both tenor and bass. To go from bass to tenor, the notes move down 2 lines or spaces. So top line A in bass clef is written as 2nd line A in tenor clef. This is really transcribing, not transposing.

The other answers seem to be assuming you're leaving the notes in the same place, and just replacing the clef. To do this, from bass to tenor, you'd remove one flat. But it seems to me you are asking about practicing tenor clef by transcription.

If transcribing is the route you’d like to go, you might like to check out the ones I’ve done here:

https://github.com/muschem/trombone/tre ... s/Bordogni

I’ve been focusing on other transcription projects lately, but I mean to finish the rest of these at some point. Still, the first 53 of them are ready to go in that archive. Changing the clef is a very quick and easy thing to do in MuseScore. You can also transpose them to different keys at a click, do some alto clef in addition to tenor… lots of options.

I learned tenor clef by reading everything a fifth higher (coming from bass clef) and of course keep the key. Later I changed this so I just read the tenor clef as the c-clef it is. These two are examples of c-clefs because they mark where the c is. There are many more c-clefs.

/Tom

Rochut is probably too hard to start with. Try something simpler. Try a beginner trumpet book (read in tenor, add two flats). Brad Edwards also has a great book on this topic. Also, don’t think about the relationship with bass clef. You need to start from scratch.

Kdanielsen wrote: ↑Tue Aug 09, 2022 12:09 pm Rochut is probably too hard to start with. Try something simpler. Try a beginner trumpet book (read in tenor, add two flats). Brad Edwards also has a great book on this topic. Also, don’t think about the relationship with bass clef. You need to start from scratch.

I agree strongly with this statement. Rochut etudes are not a good way to get acclimated in tenor clef. A much better way to learn tenor clef is to approach it gradually and methodically. There are a few books that are very well-written and cover this transition, adding one small skill at a time. I like “Introducing the Tenor Clef” by Reginald Fink. Many of my students have used this book and have become fluent in tenor clef.

Fink's book is great. I came out after I started learning clefs. I had to deal with Blazhevich. Blazhevich is nice music, but it's too advanced for a beginner to try to learn on. Incidentally, if you want to try working with Blazhevich you can find it on IMSLP as "School for Trombone". It's exactly the same as the Clef Studies book.

Another free resource on IMSLP is the Simone Matia "Trombone Virtuoso". In one section it gives exercises in tenor clef, alto clef, and transposed treble clef. And the exercises are a lot easier than Blazhevich (and don't change clefs in the middle).

The best way to do it? Make yourself need to do it. I have worked on tenor clef and alto clef for a long time, but they didn't feel familiar until I NEEDED to know them in some way.

Two suggestions:

Try to play some music that is familiar from a tenor clef part. Sometimes publishers supply bass and tenor versions for a part. Practice the bass part a bit, and then try playing off the tenor clef version. You will start to recognize the notes quicker than you would if you were to start completely "cold". If you practice Arbans, you could try this by playing from the Trumpet edition, and doing the key change trick that was suggested in other posts.

2. Get some staff paper, and write out some parts - write some tenor clef parts into bass clef for your use, and also start taking familiar bass clef parts and write them out in tenor clef. Again, this makes your brain start to make the association between the familiar notation and the unfamiliar one. Don't use Finale or any other software - actually put pencil to paper.

One last thing - when you practice in the new clef, go slow enough to avoid mistakes, no matter if that means playing at half speed or slower. The better your accuracy is, the less likely it is that you will make mistakes the next time. You will learn the clef quicker, and speed will come easily when you learn to recognize the notes.

Jim Scott

CalgaryTbone wrote: ↑Wed Aug 10, 2022 9:37 am ....
2. Get some staff paper, and write out some parts - write some tenor clef parts into bass clef for your use, and also start taking familiar bass clef parts and write them out in tenor clef. Again, this makes your brain start to make the association between the familiar notation and the unfamiliar one. Don't use Finale or any other software - actually put pencil to paper.

This is really a very good advice (best so far) when to learn any transporting skills as well as the tenor clef and other c-clefs. I can not believe I did not think of that. As I said I learned tenor clef by reading bass clef one fifth higher but after that I've done a lot of arrangements for brass or windorchestra. It was then I really learned to transpose. I also learned to read and play the parts at the same time as I wrote them. When I let my students play those parts I had to help them and then I played them on the trombone from the parts I had written. As burgerbob said you learn when you have a reason to learn. Find a reason . The parts I wrote was french horn parts in F or Eb, Bb trumpet parts and Euphonium parts in Bb treble clef, flute, clarinet and all sax parts. A lot of arrangements and of course a lot of transporting. This is the best method to learn in the beginning because you do it away from the instrument. When you've done this enough it's time to play such parts. I recommend "minus one records". You can buy easy material for trumpet and play that on the trombone. Of course you need to transpose the key as described by others but that is not a big deal later when you read tenor clef. What happens then is you DON'T need to change the key (just becomes easier).

/Tom

I learned bass clef when I first started on lower brass. At some point I wanted to join a brass band so had to learn Bb treble clef fingerings, at that time on euphonium.

The method my teacher used with me was swapping out my bass clef book of scales for a Bb treble clef one. I started with some ‚homework‘ to just have the book out and play scales I already knew from memory whilst following the new clef, then progressed onto reading new scales (or ones I didn’t know very well at least) at about a couple a day. That was a good way to get the basics in a structured way in all key signatures. After that I just worked through whichever Arban exercises were assigned each week, not only to learn the new clef but it was a good side-effect (the bass clef studies went away in the cupboard for a few weeks). Finally, I followed a similar approach to the scales but with solo piece I‘d already played in bass clef and knew pretty well before moving onto learning new solo pieces directly in treble clef.

I expect a similar approach would work to learn tenor clef from bass. You might have to create a bit of your own learning material in Musescore or something but that‘s easily done.

This thread is wild. If you want to learn tenor clef, find something written using it, and read it slowly. You don't need to be changing keys or adding sharps with bass clef music. Or, take your rochuts, don't change the key, and write it out in tenor clef.

There is zero shortage of free orchestra parts and trombone concertos on IMSLP, all written in tenor clef.

The Rochuts are nice transposed because they’re melodic and easy. A lot of orchestra parts are much more sparse. It’s a pretty common way of learning tenor clef; both schools I went to taught it that way and I know of probably another dozen people who’ve mentioned that’s how they learned to me as well. I have no idea the origin of specifically using Rochut up a fifth though

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Wed Aug 10, 2022 3:58 pm This thread is wild. If you want to learn tenor clef, find something written using it, and read it slowly. You don't need to be changing keys or adding sharps with bass clef music. Or, take your rochuts, don't change the key, and write it out in tenor clef.

There is zero shortage of free orchestra parts and trombone concertos on IMSLP, all written in tenor clef.

If there was an awesome progressive book of folk songs written in tenor clef I’d suggest that, but there isn't (not that I’m aware of anyway). Simple diatonic melodies and patterns are going to be much easier to get started with. Using treble clef music will put things in an easy and useful range for trombone. This is a pretty common way to learn tenor clef. Jumping in the deep end with concertos and orhestra parts is overwhelming for a lot of people.

I get it. The way I learned was actually through concertos. I had the Morceau Symphonique down in bass clef, list my part, and the new part was in tenor. The familiarity really helped me out

Kdanielsen wrote: ↑Wed Aug 10, 2022 7:32 pm

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Wed Aug 10, 2022 3:58 pm This thread is wild. If you want to learn tenor clef, find something written using it, and read it slowly. You don't need to be changing keys or adding sharps with bass clef music. Or, take your rochuts, don't change the key, and write it out in tenor clef.

There is zero shortage of free orchestra parts and trombone concertos on IMSLP, all written in tenor clef.

If there was an awesome progressive book of folk songs written in tenor clef I’d suggest that, but there isn't (not that I’m aware of anyway). Simple diatonic melodies and patterns are going to be much easier to get started with. Using treble clef music will put things in an easy and useful range for trombone. This is a pretty common way to learn tenor clef. Jumping in the deep end with concertos and orhestra parts is overwhelming for a lot of people.

That is exactly what the Fink book is! Short songs (very diatonic) and exercises that gradually become more challenging. Many of the selections are folk songs. Granted……they are folk songs that were better known in the 19th century.

Crazy4Tbone86 wrote: ↑Thu Aug 11, 2022 4:56 am

Kdanielsen wrote: ↑Wed Aug 10, 2022 7:32 pm

If there was an awesome progressive book of folk songs written in tenor clef I’d suggest that, but there isn't (not that I’m aware of anyway). Simple diatonic melodies and patterns are going to be much easier to get started with. Using treble clef music will put things in an easy and useful range for trombone. This is a pretty common way to learn tenor clef. Jumping in the deep end with concertos and orhestra parts is overwhelming for a lot of people.

That is exactly what the Fink book is! Short songs (very diatonic) and exercises that gradually become more challenging. Many of the selections are folk songs. Granted……they are folk songs that were better known in the 19th century.

Ah!! Excellent! Thank you!

I went back and looked at the Mantia that I got from IMSLP.

There is an entire section (8 pages) devoted to tenor clef including simple exercises in all keys and then a collection of etudes similar to the ones in bass clef earlier in the book. There is a similar section for Transposing Treble and another for Alto. If you are strapped for money or can't find the Fink book, this should be an excellent alternative.

BGuttman wrote: ↑Thu Aug 11, 2022 5:58 am I went back and looked at the Mantia that I got from IMSLP.

There is an entire section (8 pages) devoted to tenor clef including simple exercises in all keys and then a collection of etudes similar to the ones in bass clef earlier in the book. There is a similar section for Transposing Treble and another for Alto. If you are strapped for money or can't find the Fink book, this should be an excellent alternative.

Mantia is indeed an excellent source for finding easy exercises in treble. tenor and alto clef.