TromboneChat

In addition to the problem of harassment in music schools, it's starting to look like these festival orchestras made up of high-achieving young players taught by high-ranking musicians are basically hunting grounds for horny faculty and staff

QuoteI am a former member (male, violinist) of the Verbier Festival Orchestra. I was playing concertmaster for one of the concerts at Verbier, and James Levine asked me to come to the conductor’s room to discuss bowings, etc. after a rehearsal. At the end of this short conversation, he invited me to his accommodations later that evening for a drink. (This was in the presence of his brother Tom, who usually accompanied the Maestro everywhere.) Upon arriving, however, I was asked to come to his room. Aware of the rumors, I declined and politely said that I had to go to a chamber music rehearsal. I later mentioned this to Martin Engstroem, who brushed it aside and said “That’s just Jimmy being Jimmy.” Anyhow, the entire incident made me very uncomfortable, and Levine pretty much ignored me for the remainder of his time at Verbier. I am aware of no precautions that were taken by Martin Engstroem or anyone at the Verbier Festival to safeguard orchestra members.
QuoteI am a Verbier alumnus, and this statement [by the Verbier Festival, denying any problems] is rich with hypocrisy and untruth, made by someone who publicly dated a fellow Verbier student. Not only did the Festival not warn us of the dangers of sexual interactions with conductors, coaches or staff, they fully engaged in these behaviors themselves and set up frequent extravagant parties in Verbier and on world tour where musicians would find themselves in compromising situations with conductors, coaches and staff. Being invited out personally by Martin Engstroem to meet Levine at a hotel for drinks was considered an honor; I know, it happened to me too. Many friends got themselves in difficult situations with mentors, and even now, so many years later, it has had a chilling effect on many careers. Verbier has a responsibility to come clean about past mistakes, and provide a safe learning environment for future musicians. As far as follow-up on complaints, I was groped by a conductor at Verbier and called the personnel manager. Her response: she gave me his personal cell phone number.
QuoteThe case described in the link below about Munich’s University of Music boggles the imagination. A married composition professor with children was known for liaisons with students. He finally faced rape charges after taking a student to a sex club and allegedly blackmailing her into having sex with multiple partners. This is the same conservatory where Siegried Mauser was convicted of sexually assaulting two colleagues. I believe Mauser is currently facing new charges that are even more serious.

On the positive side, I think that at least in Germany, there is some movement toward creating more professional standards for professors, though I’m not certain how widespread these reforms are, or how successful.

http://www.sueddeutsche.de/muenchen/muenchen-wieder-gravierende-vorwuerfe-gegen-musik-professor-1.3075233
Quote“Here’s an article that puts a little bit more focus where it should be: on the victims. Not on the downfall of a great man (banal at this point). Not on the hand-wringing and institutional rot of the Met management and board. Not on the self-indulgent laments of fans torn about how to view his legacy.

Levine was a Dream Crusher. He told talented and hopeful young men that submitting to his sexual needs was part of their musical development. Ponder a moment how messed up that is. When bassist Chris Brown rebuffed him after a first disturbing encounter at Meadow Brook, Levine instantly cut him off and withdrew mentorship. The specifics are chilling, especially considering the age of the victims, their vulnerability, and the insular educational context. Levine’s talent and sway only deepened the damage. His artistry was an exacerbating factor, not the extenuating circumstance that so many take it for.”

A handful of problems doesn't make every extra curricular activity a hunting ground, Rob.

Expose the predators, aye... but let's not paint every organization with the same brush.

On a related note, when I was in jr high school and high school I studied off an on with a (still) highly regarded trombone teacher.

At one point in my freshman year he was no longer teaching at my school. The official line? I was told that he had been spying on our program and was telling other school bands what we would be playing at contests. As ludicrous as that sounds now, it seemed reasonable at the time.

I continued to study with him on weekends at another school. It wasn't until years later that the truth came out. He had been let go because he was making sexual advances on his male students (all under age). It is common knowledge that he had a reputation for this sort of thing at several schools in the area. I am very thankful that he never made advances on me.

The teacher's proclivities and actions flew under the radar all that time and he bounced around from school to school for years.

Times have changed. That would never fly in today's atmosphere, thank goodness.

On Knowing And Not Knowing About James Levine

QuoteWen I was 12 years old, James Levine began his tenure as Music Director of the Boston Symphony Orchestra. My father was a cellist there. This is not an essay about abuse—I never met James Levine. This is an essay about what happens when knowledge is warped by a cult of interpretive genius. It is about having had my understanding of music fundamentally structured by James Levine’s craft when I was the same age as the children he allegedly liked to abuse, and in the process having decided not to know what I knew...
Quote...When I was 12 years old and James Levine began his tenure as Music Director of the Boston Symphony Orchestra, my parents sat me down and told me that there were serious rumors swirling around him. They told me they had heard he had been inappropriate with young boys. At that time, I was often backstage at the BSO and Tanglewood, hanging out with friends who were also the children of BSO players, listening to rehearsals. They told me never to be alone in a room with James Levine. They told me to walk the other way if I saw him coming.

Quote from: slide advantage on Dec 07, 2017, 02:56PMThe teacher's proclivities and actions flew under the radar all that time and he bounced around from school to school for years.

I always wondered what the story was on the guy who preceded me as band director where I taught. By all accounts he was loved and adored by everyone but he appeared to have left just to go do the same job at an even smaller, more insignificant school.

One of the principals cautiously told me that he hadn't really quit, that they had "a problem" with him and told him to leave at the end of the year. Beyond that I never found out.


I also recall, when I was in high school, there were two teachers (and another I heard of since) that has a reputation for being too close, too friendly with the girls. One of them was the girls track team coach. It was indeed one of those "everyone knew it" but no one did anything about it situations.

My high school choir director was suddenly let go and moved out of the area, in the middle of the year.  We were never told why but it was shortly after he said some very inappropriate things in class which I won't repeat here.

This stuff has been going on forever.

It also appears that this is a sin for which you can never atone.

I won't defend the people who do this and continue to do it.

But we have to look at all sides.

There are very fine people on both sides?

It's possible that someone does bad things and then changes.  I'm thinking of Al Franken.  For all I know, Moore may no longer be looking at young girls, but that needs to be proven.

I feel like the Dems folded too early on Franken when he still had 50% approval in MN.

It's not like the Republicans are gong to feel like they have to dump Moore now.

I don't think anything Franken did compares with what Levine is described as doing with his mandatory blind-folded jackoff sessions. Yeesh.

Happens far too often. Here is a case from my part of the world.
http://theworthyadversary.com/4431-the-chorus-and-the-cycle

In today's news:

Former Canadian national ski coach Bertrand Charest, who was convicted of 37 charges related to the sexual assault of some young athletes, was sentenced this morning in Saint-Jérôme, Que., to 12 years in prison.

It's everywhere.

Quote from: Ellrod on Yesterday at 08:12 AMIt's everywhere.As troubling as the incidents of abuse are (and they are VERY troubling), I think the fact that there may have been people in positions of authority who were either willfully ignorant of what was going on or even actively sought to cover for the abusers is an order of magnitude more troubling.

Quote from: JohnL on Yesterday at 09:38 AMAs troubling as the incidents of abuse are (and they are VERY troubling), I think the fact that there may have been people in positions of authority who were either willfully ignorant of what was going on or even actively sought to cover for the abusers is an order of magnitude more troubling.


Example: USA Gymnastics...


Gymnastics Doctor Who Abused Patients Gets 60 Years for Child Pornography

QuoteThe case against Dr. Nassar emerged last year, after an Indianapolis Star investigation found that U.S.A. Gymnastics, the sport’s national governing body, had systematically failed to report gymnasts’ allegations of sexual abuse by coaches. Then, in September 2016, The Star published detailed accounts from two former gymnasts who said that, among other sexually abusive behavior, Dr. Nassar had penetrated them with his fingers, claiming it was a treatment for back pain.

Quote from: Exzaclee on Dec 07, 2017, 02:39PMA handful of problems doesn't make every extra curricular activity a hunting ground, Rob.

Expose the predators, aye... but let's not paint every organization with the same brush.

One of the defenses of Levine I'm reading on musicblogs is that everyone was doing it.

It was expected that college profs were banging the students.

That still doesn't make it right.  Nor does the argument that even Mozart and Liszt did it.

There are subtle little things: you try to pose the student in a position and fingers slide into apertures they don't belong.  I believe this was what Nasser was doing.  Behind piles of mats with the parents in the room.

Half a decade ago, there was a substitute band teacher in my school district who was caught have sexual relations with an underage girl (I believe she was one of his students) and was arrested and it was revealed that they exchanged explicit sexual photos via text messages.  Also I remember that same year he was arrested he subbed for OUR 6th grade band class in our elementary.  Dark times we're living in.
 http://www.sourcenewspapers.com/news/substitute-band-teacher-accused-of-sex-with-student-exchanging-explicit/article_387fb3c1-c3a5-56a5-8c4d-c51f99b4793e.html

Same as it ever was probably. Except victims are speaking up.

When I was in college, and to be clear I'm talking about college students who are nearly all legally adults, I was surprised at how many students actively tried to "get with" their teachers, male or female, straight or not. It seemed scandalous, but in the opposite way that these "me too" stories seem scandalous. It is not really surprising to me that, especially in college level programs of any kind, there are predatory teachers. I also wouldn't be surprised if enthusiastic adult college students had changed their mind about what they had agreed on doing after the fact.

I think that if these allegations cropping up everywhere are proven beyond a reasonable doubt to be true, it's terrible and people should be punished for breaking the law. I do think that, especially for people bringing up stuff that supposedly happened decades ago, allegations should be just that. Guilty until proven innocent is not how the judicial system is supposed to work. These things should be investigated by ethics comitees and by legal means. It is not for the media or for joe shmoes to decide what happened.

I recall an architecture grad student who signed up for first year music theory explaining that when he was in first year, the 4th year students got the girls, when he was in 4th year, the grad students got the girls, and when he became a grad student, the profs got the girls.

Quote from: Ellrod on Dec 10, 2017, 09:01AMI recall an architecture grad student who signed up for first year music theory explaining that when he was in first year, the 4th year students got the girls, when he was in 4th year, the grad students got the girls, and when he became a grad student, the profs got the girls.

Quote from: Ellrod on Dec 10, 2017, 09:01AMI recall an architecture grad student who signed up for first year music theory explaining that when he was in first year, the 4th year students got the girls, when he was in 4th year, the grad students got the girls, and when he became a grad student, the profs got the girls.

This kind of preconceived/perpetuated culture is no good, but still. Are the people observing this system forcing others to do things they didn't want to do and participating in it, or is it just someone observing that women at the school aren't going out with them, but are gravitating towards whoever is in a senior position? It's easy to paint it as a horrific civil rights problem, but it's not a secret that people are often attracted to someone in a superior social position.

Again, this is talking about a college institution where nearly everyone at that institution is, for better or for worse, legally an adult.

Also, if the school doesn't have a code of ethics in place forbidding relationships between faculty and students then ... 

I guess the thing I struggle with is that there is a pretty large gray area between something that is legally OK and something that is absolutely unlawful and amoral. On the surface, the above quote seems barbaric, but it's already painted in a certain light by the phrasing.

"Women at XYZ college, according to a poll, are 50% more likely than men to date someone from a class ahead of them. Female grad students are known to often date their teachers." presents the same information with no bias. It seems to me that the real problems that are being brought up with the "me too" movement should be solved at the lowest level. Victims should report foul behavior, straight away. But before it even comes to that, their colleagues and their boss' colleagues should be vocal as well if they see foul behavior happening. Saying "hey, you can't say that at work. That's completely unprofessional " is a far better solution than these media scoops. And when the victim does have to report it, it's not just some allegation. They would have ten people of both genders who could say, "oh yeah, we've all seen this kind of behavior". In other words, shame on all the employees at some of these places where they see the boss touching their coworker, or saying obscene things, and they don't do anything about it or speak up. The victim shouldn't even have to file a complaint.

Contrast that with a college student who was asked out by their teacher, agreed, dated for a while, and then came to terms with the fact that they both might have had alterior motives for getting into a relationship, and THEN says "me too", or even worse, has someone else look at the situation and say "them too". I'm skeptical of everyone in these kinds of cases, and I have a feeling that this kind of situation is far and away more common than the really horrific stories the media reports. Is this a bad way to think?

Quote from: Ellrod on Dec 10, 2017, 09:01AMI recall an architecture grad student who signed up for first year music theory explaining that when he was in first year, the 4th year students got the girls, when he was in 4th year, the grad students got the girls, and when he became a grad student, the profs got the girls.

Reminds me of the film A Beautiful Mind.

I think people are trying to conflate things that don't belong together.

If a college student and a faculty are willingly, genuinely romantically attracted to each other... OK, I can sort of see that, although it still seems a bad idea.


But when the teacher says to a student, "We need to jack off right now.  It's crucial for your musical development," and if the student says "no" he gets cut off from further legitimate instruction... the "they're both legal adults" defense isn't valid.

That is the James Levine situation. Even if you're "21" it's easy to get drawn into a bad situation when everyone important is telling you what a genius this guy is and how special it is to be able to study with him and... how do you know they're wrong when you aren't old enough to know that's not how it really works?

Yeah, that is messed up.

Is that the norm that gets overlaid onto all educators running these festivals? Or is the norm more of a gray area where some students are trying to get with teachers, and some teachers want to get with their students, and basically all involved parties are cruddy and flawed? That's what I'm saying.  These media stories are outrageous, but is it the norm?

Quote from: harrison.t.reed on Dec 10, 2017, 12:01PMYeah, that is messed up.

Is that the norm that gets overlaid onto all educators running these festivals?

The norm? I would say there are enough cases that anyone running a festival or school should put a procedure in place so that it can't happen instead of just claiming "we haven't heard of it happening".

Conservatory prof...

Three schools sever ties with influential musician amid abuse allegations

QuoteIn multiple interviews, however, four former Boston Conservatory students described unwanted sexual advances by Hewitt — allegations that included bullying, lewd phone calls and text messages, propositions, and, in one incident, sexual assault.

The women, who ranged from 21 to 29 at the time of the alleged incidents, described a period dating to 2012 in which Hewitt used his considerable sway at the conservatory to run roughshod over young musicians just embarking on their careers.

The Globe confirmed their accounts with contemporaneous communications, medical records, and multiple interviews with friends, family, colleagues, and professors who learned of Hewitt’s behavior soon after it occurred.

The Globe has confirmed that at least two of the incidents shared by the women — including the alleged sexual assault — were reported to conservatory faculty soon after they occurred.
Long article includes rape-drug incident.

If the Met can out James Levine, then I think that the Cleveland Orchestra should be getting pretty nervous right about now.

More Levine...

The human cost of the James Levine climate

QuoteOur contact was on the music staff at the Met as a young man in the 1980s. He was approached one day by the music director, who ‘stuck his hand down my pants’. Our contact indicated that he was not interested, and that was it.

No big deal, you might say. Everyone was above the age of consent. What followed, however, is indicative of the corrosive atmosphere at the Met and how careers could be made or broken at one man’s whim.

From the moment he declined the sexual proposition, our contact became invisible in the building. No-one wanted to work with him. If he asked why, he would be told he ‘was not good enough’. A clique around the music director was there to enforce his wishes.

Quote from: robcat2075 on Dec 15, 2017, 07:57AMMore Levine...

The human cost of the James Levine climate


Another interesting detail from that post... Norman Lebrecht says he was the one that told Ashok Pai to make a police report last year.

Some combination of a formal report and the police deciding to do what investigating they could is what got this all rolling.

Charles Dutoit now.  Multiple (adult) victims coming forward.

QuoteI’m glad these women have come forward. I spent a summer as an intern at Tanglewood. Charles Dutoit manouvered me against a wall and put his hand on my breast. I fled his dressing room- I’d only gone in to drop off some documents.

I alerted the orchestra manager , who told me (too late…) that they usually advised women not to enter his dressing room unaccompanied, as there had been previous complaints.

So they knew what was going on… I have never felt angrier or less protected by an organisation. They continued to employ him, whilst knowing he harassed women.

Quote from: robcat2075 on Dec 21, 2017, 10:42AMCharles Dutoit now.  Multiple (adult) victims coming forward.I'm afraid we're going to find that this is just the tip of the proverbial iceberg. People that are perceived as being so talented, so important, so utterly irreplaceable that they can do what they will and the institutions for which they work will protect them.

Here's a thought:
Have these people worked their way into these positions and then been corrupted by the utter lack of accountability, or were they always scumbags and worked their way into these positions so they could commit these acts with impunity?

Quote from: robcat2075 on Dec 21, 2017, 10:42AMCharles Dutoit now.[/url]  Multiple (adult) victims coming forward.

Damn. I loved his recordings with Montreal.

S

What young woman's heart wouldn't go pitty-pat at the prospect of getting felt-up by this guy...

And this guy. At least the victims are now being heard and these a** hats can be stopped.

https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2017/12/13/three-schools-sever-ties-with-influential-conductor-musician-amid-abuse-allegations/hpvSvdLvaMwz8TwvKtlt2L/story.html#comments

All of these stories make me thankful to have been a shy kid who was terrified to even call a girl on the phone. Only up until I was about 25 or so So I doubt if anyone can accuse me of anything worse than telling bad jokes.

Not quite the same thing, but we should remember what Munich did to our own Abbie Conant.

Quote from: sf105 on Dec 21, 2017, 11:42AMDamn. I loved his recordings with Montreal.

S

Unfortunately, everyone in Montreal has heard stories (which sound like made up urban legends until the on-the-record reported accusations years later fit precisely the kind of behaviour those rumors were about...). I am very disappointed (although in no way surprised) that the Montreal Symphony is playing the "those specific accusations didn't happen in our backyard, so we'll just look the other way and pretend we don't know anything about it" card. Are there high-ranking executives in world-class organizations who have employed abusive leaders who still don't realize this course of action is no longer available them? Really?

Quote from: sf105 on Dec 23, 2017, 08:22AMNot quite the same thing, but we should remember what Munich did to our own Abbie Conant.

Incidentally, Abbie Conant, famous trombonist, is being sued by Massimo LaRosa, famous trombonist, over... groping allegations.

To be clear, LaRosa is suing Conant in defamation over allegations she made about him.

Will Messrs Levine and DuToit be called as character witnesses for Mr. LaRosa?

If I understood correctly, he is suing her for making a Facebook post about a fairly well-known incident.

Here's an article from four years ago covering the same incident. 

It's not clear to me why he is suing Conant now when that article put it out there years ago. 

It’s been a while since law school - 35 years - but IIRC, it is actionable to repeat a defamatory statement. And that was in the GWN where the law of defamation was generally regarded as more protective of an individual’s reputation.

Sure it's actionable. That still doesn't make it right.

It's ALSO a very lousy PR strategy. Suing the well-known and loved person who is basically the living symbol of the fight for gender equality in the trombone world over sexual assault accusations everybody knows about already. Way to boost your reputation...

Also, isn't it pretty reckless of him to throw rocks at this beehive given that the statutory limit is not reached yet?

Any artist with endorsements will be obligated to defend their reputation legally.

What would happen if a Yamaha artist appeared to be defamed ?

Quote from: bonesmarsh on Dec 24, 2017, 07:19AMAny artist with endorsements will be obligated to defend their reputation legally.

I would think any brand that cares about protecting its moral reputation would choose not to knowingly endorse someone who has been accused of assaulting a student in the first place, really.

That would go for an orchestra or school also.  What makes this interesting is that it's a civil case between the accused and a messenger, not a victim.  It seems to me the statute of limitations and other factors would potentially apply very differently, but I don't know anything about the law.

Quote from: Le.Tromboniste on Dec 24, 2017, 06:05AMSure it's actionable. That still doesn't make it right.

It's ALSO a very lousy PR strategy. Suing the well-known and loved person who is basically the living symbol of the fight for gender equality in the trombone world over sexual assault accusations everybody knows about already. Way to boost your reputation...

Also, isn't it pretty reckless of him to throw rocks at this beehive given that the statutory limit is not reached yet?

There won’t be many trombonists in the jury.

Quote from: Ellrod on Dec 24, 2017, 08:13AMThere won’t be many trombonists in the jury.
As I said, lousy PR strategy. For the legal side, I don't know. But whether he wins in court or not, how does that help his reputation? Now not only will he still be known to have been accused of assault on a student (like that's gonna go away because he sued Abbie Conant? If anything it'll just make people talk about it more!), but he'll be known as a guy who launches petty lawsuits to gag activists. I just don't see how there's a win for him in this no matter the outcome.

Quote from: Doug Elliott on Dec 24, 2017, 08:12AMThat would go for an orchestra or school also.  What makes this interesting is that it's a civil case between the accused and a messenger, not a victim. 

True, it'll be interesting to see what happens with this, and I must say, very interesting timing, with all these accusations surfacing these days.

Quote from: Doug Elliott on Dec 24, 2017, 08:12AMIt seems to me the statute of limitations and other factors would potentially apply very differently, but I don't know anything about the law.
I mentioned the statute of limitations not because it is relevant to that lawsuit, but because he is still exposed to criminal prosecution. What if a victim who until now had decided not to file a complaint changes their mind because of that lawsuit? Seems like a very big risk to take just to make a point.

According to the article, Conant never named him. It seems foolish to say he's the unnamed person.



QuoteSpecifically, [the lawsuit] said, Allen "falsely alleged that [La Rosa], who is married, had committed and was criminally culpable for multiple sexual assaults on numerous college campuses [where La Rosa] had been invited to as a guest instructor.''
QuoteThe suit said La Rosa "has never been criminally charged with, or even criminally investigated for, any such criminal behavior or other crimes of moral turpitude.''
Is that a non-denial denial?