Quote from: CJ on Oct 03, 2017, 01:23PMRather than a personal favorite, perhaps the OP would be curious to know (as would I): what would those of you with some degree of experience in these matters recommend to someone who is new to playing bass in a big band setting?
...assuming appropriate gear, anatomy, etc.
New at playing bass? Generally Bach 2G or 1 1/2G size (Yamaha;Schilke 58, Marcinkiewicz 3).
Playing bass in orchestra or concert band? Use what you have now.
Bass trombone in Big Band has to be a trombone half the time and a low instrument (doubling Bari Sax) half the time. Don't play anything that jeopardizes your range up to high Bb (4 lines above bass staff). Work on playing pedals down to F or Eb. Note that the lowest note the baritone sax can play is C 2 lines below the bass staff.
Mouthpiece suggestion for jazz bass bone
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ttf_BGuttman
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ttf_hyperbolica
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Mouthpiece suggestion for jazz bass bone
Quote from: CJ on Oct 03, 2017, 01:23PMRather than a personal favorite, perhaps the OP would be curious to know (as would I): what would those of you with some degree of experience in these matters recommend to someone who is new to playing bass in a big band setting?
...assuming appropriate gear, anatomy, etc.
In big band, I try to use a single valve bass (70h) with a DE setup in the 2G range (108J8). If the tunes require a double bass (lots of Cs and Bs) I would prefer to play my Olds P24G because it blends so well with tenors, but the section leader plays a Bach 36 and prefers the sound of my Kanstul 1662i. In either case, I use a Ferguson V mouthpiece, which is slightly bigger than a 1 1/2G but has a lot more bite to the sound that you need for big band playing to keep the sound lively and not so ponderous. If the section leader played the Bach NY 6 that he has in his closet, my P24G would be a better fit.
If you're playing older music (60s and prior), a single trigger horn is really what it was written for, at the largest, sometimes even playable on a straight horn. In most cases, a full-on double trigger bass is overkill. Add a 562/578 dual bore slide, and a ~Schilke 60 or bigger, and you're not even really in the ball park. Yes, I realize people are different, but big band is a brighter style.
...assuming appropriate gear, anatomy, etc.
In big band, I try to use a single valve bass (70h) with a DE setup in the 2G range (108J8). If the tunes require a double bass (lots of Cs and Bs) I would prefer to play my Olds P24G because it blends so well with tenors, but the section leader plays a Bach 36 and prefers the sound of my Kanstul 1662i. In either case, I use a Ferguson V mouthpiece, which is slightly bigger than a 1 1/2G but has a lot more bite to the sound that you need for big band playing to keep the sound lively and not so ponderous. If the section leader played the Bach NY 6 that he has in his closet, my P24G would be a better fit.
If you're playing older music (60s and prior), a single trigger horn is really what it was written for, at the largest, sometimes even playable on a straight horn. In most cases, a full-on double trigger bass is overkill. Add a 562/578 dual bore slide, and a ~Schilke 60 or bigger, and you're not even really in the ball park. Yes, I realize people are different, but big band is a brighter style.
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ttf_CJ
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Mouthpiece suggestion for jazz bass bone
Thats really helpful. I play Bass only occasionally, and I find that your mouthpiece recommendation are right on for the doubler. So true about the two roles played by the bass in a lot of arrangements.
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ttf_wgwbassbone
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Mouthpiece suggestion for jazz bass bone
Quote from: Stan on Oct 03, 2017, 11:51AMJust found this thread. Bill and Sascha are both coming off as a little condescending. Bill definitely has the bona fides to do that if he wishes.
Can't we all agree that this is an intensely personal thing that has to do with how your sound concept, psychology, psychology, and ensemble mates all come together? There's not wrong mouthpiece. There's no right mouthpiece. Sam B. would likely remind us that we've got to pick the right tool for the job, and Duke Ellington would also say that if it sounds good, it is good.
If what you've got isn't working, make a change. If it gets worse, change it back?
Condescending? Can you please explain condescending?
Can't we all agree that this is an intensely personal thing that has to do with how your sound concept, psychology, psychology, and ensemble mates all come together? There's not wrong mouthpiece. There's no right mouthpiece. Sam B. would likely remind us that we've got to pick the right tool for the job, and Duke Ellington would also say that if it sounds good, it is good.
If what you've got isn't working, make a change. If it gets worse, change it back?
Condescending? Can you please explain condescending?
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ttf_bonesmarsh
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Mouthpiece suggestion for jazz bass bone
I don't see any condescending attitude of late, but more than a little frustration.
When threads come up from years ago, or you do a search that leads you to a thread over 10 years old, the replies were then based on personal experience based on years of experience and a lot of the time decades of practice. People shared decades of experience in a new format.
What do I see now?
Well, if you can quote reams of numbers and decipher tricky codes to either Elliott mouthpieces or Shires stock numbers, you're on a fast track to a position as a volunteer moderator in an internet chat room. Not a bad thing, but not really based on decades of personal experience that a person like Blast, or Sabutin , or a lot of older well seasoned players can offer.
My personal fear? What would a person like Remington have done in an atmosphere where ever d*mned word they uttered was open for debate by the peanut gallery on a global format. Or in a world where you could easily attempt-- in seconds with daddy's credit card-- to buy your way out of practicing.
Take heart, everybody, eventually Doug Yeo will have once again been proven to be far ahead of the curve when he wound down and quit answering the peanut gallery for free. You have to work for what gems he offers, once again.
When threads come up from years ago, or you do a search that leads you to a thread over 10 years old, the replies were then based on personal experience based on years of experience and a lot of the time decades of practice. People shared decades of experience in a new format.
What do I see now?
Well, if you can quote reams of numbers and decipher tricky codes to either Elliott mouthpieces or Shires stock numbers, you're on a fast track to a position as a volunteer moderator in an internet chat room. Not a bad thing, but not really based on decades of personal experience that a person like Blast, or Sabutin , or a lot of older well seasoned players can offer.
My personal fear? What would a person like Remington have done in an atmosphere where ever d*mned word they uttered was open for debate by the peanut gallery on a global format. Or in a world where you could easily attempt-- in seconds with daddy's credit card-- to buy your way out of practicing.
Take heart, everybody, eventually Doug Yeo will have once again been proven to be far ahead of the curve when he wound down and quit answering the peanut gallery for free. You have to work for what gems he offers, once again.
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ttf_Peter Eiden
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Mouthpiece suggestion for jazz bass bone
Quote from: Stan on Oct 03, 2017, 11:51AMIf what you've got isn't working, make a change. If it gets worse, change it back?
I'd rather add a couple of words.
"If what you've got isn't working, start by making sure you are using it properly. If not, fix that first. If so maybe make a change."
I'd rather add a couple of words.
"If what you've got isn't working, start by making sure you are using it properly. If not, fix that first. If so maybe make a change."
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ttf_BGuttman
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Mouthpiece suggestion for jazz bass bone
I think one of the problems is that Bass Trombone (in any situation) is a rather schizophrenic part. It sometimes has to be a trombone and sometimes has to be a bass.
Too big a mouthpiece and you sound like a bass and never blend with the trombones. Too small a mouthpiece and you can't get the bass notes.
For most conventional bass trombone parts, you will never see anything below pedal G in orchestra and pedal F in Big Band (and that very low note was in a Bob Florence chart). However you need to have a range up to high Bb (4 lines above the bass staff). If your setup doesn't allow you to play that range, you either need to practice more rangebuilding or change to a different mouthpiece. If you can't blend with the trombones, you need to go smaller.
George Roberts played on a mouthpiece only a little larger than a 1.5 G and certainly he was able to play Big Band bass trombone. But his sound is not intended to be symphonic. It has to be lighter and more agile. Especially if taking a solo. You can't sound like an elephant on a rampage.
The other day I was playing my GR Marcinkiewicz on my King 7B and was able to cover an IGSOY solo (going to A; in Bb) for a first trombone who was "gassed" toward the end of the concert; all the while playing 3rd parts, most of which never went below the bass staff. Bass trombone? VERSATILE.
Too big a mouthpiece and you sound like a bass and never blend with the trombones. Too small a mouthpiece and you can't get the bass notes.
For most conventional bass trombone parts, you will never see anything below pedal G in orchestra and pedal F in Big Band (and that very low note was in a Bob Florence chart). However you need to have a range up to high Bb (4 lines above the bass staff). If your setup doesn't allow you to play that range, you either need to practice more rangebuilding or change to a different mouthpiece. If you can't blend with the trombones, you need to go smaller.
George Roberts played on a mouthpiece only a little larger than a 1.5 G and certainly he was able to play Big Band bass trombone. But his sound is not intended to be symphonic. It has to be lighter and more agile. Especially if taking a solo. You can't sound like an elephant on a rampage.
The other day I was playing my GR Marcinkiewicz on my King 7B and was able to cover an IGSOY solo (going to A; in Bb) for a first trombone who was "gassed" toward the end of the concert; all the while playing 3rd parts, most of which never went below the bass staff. Bass trombone? VERSATILE.
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ttf_Matt K
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Mouthpiece suggestion for jazz bass bone
Experience is easy to come across as condescending (bearing in mind that condescension is acting in a patronizingly superior fashion) if it relies or even uses ethos as its primary form of argument. The more experience you have, the more you may want to rely on, "Trust me, I've been at this long enough." as a convenient short hand. You know that you've done this for a long time and you knwo your experience. But the problem is that without that level of experience it is impossible to put yourself in the mindset that can comprehend the depth of that experience. (Dunning-Kruger Effect)
So younger people may ask what seems to be an innocent question but a more seasoned player might take it as an affront to their experience. Similarly, a more experienced person might make an innocent answer that a younger person can take as an affront to their ability to perceive the world.
The comments earlier about Dualbore slides and Schilke 60 mouthpieces I'm sure were intended to convey a level of experience working with those equipment. But the way they come across to a younger player is that they have poor taste in music, ability to perceive quality, etc. because experience X tells me so. That can easily be interpreted as patronizing since ultimately the quality of music is a subjective endeavor, even if not intended to be a patronizing statement.
Similarly, saying people are an outlier in their choice of equipment also may come from a position of extreme experience as well as benevolence. However, there are two types of outliers. Some are simply observations that are outside of the normal range of data. Others are experimental errors which should be discarded. The distinction is important. You dont' want to exclude something merely because it is different form an otherwise good set of data. But it is important to exclude something if it is actually incorrect.
What may have been intended to be said was the former; that you are statistically not likely to be that person. You probably don't need it, work harder and you'll get what you want. You young whippersnappers and your lack of work ethic! However, this does not take into consideration the mindset of the person the message is being conveyed to. They might indeed be working very hard and have tried for years under they assumption they were not the outlier and want to try something new because obviously players like Jeff Cortazzo exist and they are successful at the highest levels. Saying to not try that particular route is in essence saying that those players have an invalid method because people shouldn't take that route. Again, even if what is being said is that the average player is not needing something unusual to express themselves musically in the way that they would like.
Communication is tricky among different ages and cultures and I tend to use the premise that if my communication has not been received, it is my fault. Unless proven otherwise. It happens. Hopefully I've provided some context for why someone might perceive some of the earlier comments as dismissive or condescending. The true bottom line here is that I assume everyone here has the best wishes for the playing of all of the others here as well as respecting the experience of those who voluntarily contribute. That can go a long way towards realizing that advice may be taken with a grain of salt as well as that not everybody who wants to explore options even has the ability or desire to cease practicing and buy their way (will ill gotten funds acquired from their parents) into fame.
So younger people may ask what seems to be an innocent question but a more seasoned player might take it as an affront to their experience. Similarly, a more experienced person might make an innocent answer that a younger person can take as an affront to their ability to perceive the world.
The comments earlier about Dualbore slides and Schilke 60 mouthpieces I'm sure were intended to convey a level of experience working with those equipment. But the way they come across to a younger player is that they have poor taste in music, ability to perceive quality, etc. because experience X tells me so. That can easily be interpreted as patronizing since ultimately the quality of music is a subjective endeavor, even if not intended to be a patronizing statement.
Similarly, saying people are an outlier in their choice of equipment also may come from a position of extreme experience as well as benevolence. However, there are two types of outliers. Some are simply observations that are outside of the normal range of data. Others are experimental errors which should be discarded. The distinction is important. You dont' want to exclude something merely because it is different form an otherwise good set of data. But it is important to exclude something if it is actually incorrect.
What may have been intended to be said was the former; that you are statistically not likely to be that person. You probably don't need it, work harder and you'll get what you want. You young whippersnappers and your lack of work ethic! However, this does not take into consideration the mindset of the person the message is being conveyed to. They might indeed be working very hard and have tried for years under they assumption they were not the outlier and want to try something new because obviously players like Jeff Cortazzo exist and they are successful at the highest levels. Saying to not try that particular route is in essence saying that those players have an invalid method because people shouldn't take that route. Again, even if what is being said is that the average player is not needing something unusual to express themselves musically in the way that they would like.
Communication is tricky among different ages and cultures and I tend to use the premise that if my communication has not been received, it is my fault. Unless proven otherwise. It happens. Hopefully I've provided some context for why someone might perceive some of the earlier comments as dismissive or condescending. The true bottom line here is that I assume everyone here has the best wishes for the playing of all of the others here as well as respecting the experience of those who voluntarily contribute. That can go a long way towards realizing that advice may be taken with a grain of salt as well as that not everybody who wants to explore options even has the ability or desire to cease practicing and buy their way (will ill gotten funds acquired from their parents) into fame.
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ttf_Dan Hine
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Mouthpiece suggestion for jazz bass bone
Jeff Cortazo IS an outlier. So is Jim Markey and many others. We could name several hundred amazing bass trombone players. But how many people in the history of the world have played bass trombone?
Michael Jordan is an outlier.
Barry Bonds (steroids or no) is an outlier.
Bill Gates is an outlier.
This is neither positive or negative. It just IS. Perhaps the OP (or anyone else) can use huge equipment and be top tier. But you can make that decision two ways. 1) Thinking "this is normal." 2) Thinking "This is outside the norm." And knowing your own approach from the start is valuable.
Michael Jordan is an outlier.
Barry Bonds (steroids or no) is an outlier.
Bill Gates is an outlier.
This is neither positive or negative. It just IS. Perhaps the OP (or anyone else) can use huge equipment and be top tier. But you can make that decision two ways. 1) Thinking "this is normal." 2) Thinking "This is outside the norm." And knowing your own approach from the start is valuable.
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ttf_Ellrod
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Mouthpiece suggestion for jazz bass bone
Maybe all the amazing bass trombonists are outliers. The 1% of bass trombone players.
Bill Gates an outlier? Hmmmm - in terms of bank account, definitely (as am I, only in the other direction). But I think he and Paul were in the right place at the right time.
Bill Gates an outlier? Hmmmm - in terms of bank account, definitely (as am I, only in the other direction). But I think he and Paul were in the right place at the right time.
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ttf_Dan Hine
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Mouthpiece suggestion for jazz bass bone
Quote from: Ellrod on Oct 04, 2017, 09:59AMMaybe all the amazing bass trombonists are outliers. The 1% of bass trombone players.
Yes, exactly. I simply mentioned Jeff Cortazo as he was mentioned by the OP (and I'm more familiar with him than I am Ben Polk).
QuoteBill Gates an outlier? Hmmmm - in terms of bank account, definitely (as am I, only in the other direction). But I think he and Paul were in the right place at the right time.
Sure. That doesn't make his case any less different than the norm.
Yes, exactly. I simply mentioned Jeff Cortazo as he was mentioned by the OP (and I'm more familiar with him than I am Ben Polk).
QuoteBill Gates an outlier? Hmmmm - in terms of bank account, definitely (as am I, only in the other direction). But I think he and Paul were in the right place at the right time.
Sure. That doesn't make his case any less different than the norm.
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ttf_savio
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Mouthpiece suggestion for jazz bass bone
I hope it doesn't seem like I tell that everyone should play an 1 1/2g? No and no. But it is an option and for some it is the right size. For some the 60 is the right size. No matter size, we still have to work at it.
To the OP I would in fact take a lesson with Doug Elliott because he can see and listen what size you need.
For jazz you don't need anything special. As long as you find something that works for you and you love to play. Make it sound like a trombone with a deep nice sound.
Leif
To the OP I would in fact take a lesson with Doug Elliott because he can see and listen what size you need.
For jazz you don't need anything special. As long as you find something that works for you and you love to play. Make it sound like a trombone with a deep nice sound.
Leif
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ttf_blast
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Mouthpiece suggestion for jazz bass bone
Don't worry Savio.... what we now know is that for every mouthpiece and trombone out there , there is a player that will be right at home on them, and we shouldn't stand in the way of free choice. The problem is in asking for suggestions as this is limiting in itself.
Sam has it right.... try everything, use what works.
Chris Stearn
Sam has it right.... try everything, use what works.
Chris Stearn
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ttf_watermailonman
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Mouthpiece suggestion for jazz bass bone
Quote from: blast on Oct 04, 2017, 03:20PMDon't worry Savio.... what we now know is that for every mouthpiece and trombone out there , there is a player that will be right at home on them, and we shouldn't stand in the way of free choice. The problem is in asking for suggestions as this is limiting in itself.
Sam has it right.... try everything, use what works.
Chris Stearn
Yes, and if you have a chance to try a Karl Hammond 20BL don't miss that opportunity. This is my choice of a mouth piece
Try everything!!!
/Tom
Sam has it right.... try everything, use what works.
Chris Stearn
Yes, and if you have a chance to try a Karl Hammond 20BL don't miss that opportunity. This is my choice of a mouth piece
Try everything!!!
/Tom
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ttf_svenlarsson
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Mouthpiece suggestion for jazz bass bone
I had students that played beautiful bass trombon on 2G size mpc. others played beautiful on super large mpc. for some the 1,5G did sound like it was to big.
The first thing is to have an idea about sound. The second to get chops. How? Practise. The third thing is to try mothpieces until you find one that works. For now.
Many of us have heard beautiful pedal F played on just a size 12. To reach the low range is mostly a question of work and technique.
The first thing is to have an idea about sound. The second to get chops. How? Practise. The third thing is to try mothpieces until you find one that works. For now.
Many of us have heard beautiful pedal F played on just a size 12. To reach the low range is mostly a question of work and technique.
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ttf_JWykell
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Mouthpiece suggestion for jazz bass bone
I don't have 20+ years of professional experience. In fact I consider myself an avid and passionate hobbyist. What I do have is the memories of a 16, 17, 18 year old kid who wanted to make a career in music and who somewhat idolized the CSO trombone section. I also remember that most of the messages I received as a young player were that you had to be the best to make it in music. I think the way I internalized that was that if the CSO guys were using big gear I needed to figure out how to make that gear work. Get the biggest sound possible and work backwards to develop the flexibility, agility, and range needed. Tone was the ONLY thing that mattered. I thought if I couldn't play well on a huge setup then I wasn't good enough. I don't think this forum existed then (late 90's) and if it did I didn't know of it. But if it had and I'd come on here saying my Doug Elliott I cup isn't working and a pro told me my mouthpiece was too big (which it was) I think I would have internalized that as "you're not good enough". Now I know that is NOT what anyone is trying to communicate here, and it might not be what other young people are hearing. But remember being young and trying to be a musician in this day in age is scary. Fear rarely leads to good rational decisions.
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ttf_BGuttman
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Mouthpiece suggestion for jazz bass bone
For what it's worth, when I was in High School (late Pre-Cambrian Era) my teacher played a Conn 88H (he was a Remington student). He could belt out a trigger pedal C on his Remington mouthpiece. It's not the equipment.
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ttf_JWykell
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Mouthpiece suggestion for jazz bass bone
I know that now. I quite pretty early on in my music major. I didn't play trombone for about 20 years. Picked up electric bass. Had some very different musical experiences than the ones I'd had as a music student. Got into jazz (again) as a bassist, and got a bug up my @$% to pick up a horn again. I realized that even though I had spent a lot of time wood shedding on bass to learn how to play walking bass lines, that much of it carried over to the horn. Plus I think the fact that I had played trombone as a young child made it just feel like home in a way that I realized bass never would no matter how good I got at it. So when I went back to playing trombone I was able to drop much of the pretense I carried around as younger student, and focus on my musical goals. I quickly downsized cups. Then I downsized slides (.547-.525). Not that it matters but I play on an F cup now. There are technical things I could do as a teenager that I still haven't gotten "back", but I can make music now in a way I couldn't back then.
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ttf_JWykell
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Mouthpiece suggestion for jazz bass bone
I know that now. I quite pretty early on in my music major. I didn't play trombone for about 20 years. Picked up electric bass. Had some very different musical experiences than the ones I'd had as a music student. Got into jazz (again) as a bassist, and got a bug up my @$% to pick up a horn again. I realized that even though I had spent a lot of time wood shedding on bass to learn how to play walking bass lines, that much of it carried over to the horn. Plus I think the fact that I had played trombone as a young child made it just feel like home in a way that I realized bass never would no matter how good I got at it. So when I went back to playing trombone I was able to drop much of the pretense I carried around as younger student, and focus on my musical goals. I quickly downsized cups. Then I downsized slides (.547-.525). Not that it matters but I play on an F cup now. There are technical things I could do as a teenager that I still haven't gotten "back", but I can make music now in a way I couldn't back then.