Mouthpiece suggestion for jazz bass bone

ttf_mattino37 · Post by **ttf_mattino37** » Fri Sep 29, 2017 10:17 am

Hey everyone,
I know this is a very cliche question on here, but I'm so annoyed I'll try everything. I play bass trombone in the top Jazz ensemble at my university, where we play anywhere from the standards like Basie and Ellington, all the way up to super modern charts, so I'm playing all over the range of the horn. I play on an Edwards B454E, with a dual bore slide, so I'm making a really deep, powerful sound, think ala Jeff Cortazzo/ Ben Polk, not something super bright and commercial. Right now I'm playing on a Schilke 59 that I got for super cheap years ago. I've been really stubborn and haven't addressed it for a while, but I hate the mouthpiece. It just feels barely too small for my lips (I also play tuba frequently on a Perantucci 88). I've tried at least a dozen other mouthpieces, no bigger than a Schilke 60, and none of them feel right. I was thinking about getting with Doug Elliott about getting a piece (thinking maybe a 116 M 9) and also a Greg Black, maybe 1G or 0G. I would try them, but I don't have access to any of those to try. Do you guys have any suggestions of pieces to look into or any feedback at all. It's all appreciated!

ttf_Full Pedal Trombonist · Fri Sep 29, 2017 10:22 am

Doug has a great return/trial policy

ttf_Torobone · Post by **ttf_Torobone** » Fri Sep 29, 2017 10:44 am

I tried a bunch of mouthpieces, and I settled on a Griego. I use the second largest, a .75.

The big band music I play goes from pedal F to high Bb. In some respect I would prefer a brighter sound, but I overhead some of the other players talking about how much my sound improved with the switch to my Griego.

ttf_trombone addict · Fri Sep 29, 2017 10:47 am

Dave Taylor's line by Griego would be worth a try if you can find some examples.

ttf_Radar · Post by **ttf_Radar** » Fri Sep 29, 2017 10:52 am

Consulting with Doug is definately a good option. Another mouthpiece you can try is the Doug Yeo model from Yamaha (I'm a Tuba doubler also and this ones works well for me). They have a Doug Yeo Replica Model (which is identical to the original, without the gold plating on the rim and cup) which is very affordable. You can get it on-line for under $70 new, and some of the on-line retailers have a return policy as well.

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Fri Sep 29, 2017 11:13 am

I went the Doug Elliott route many years ago. He put me on a 114 L/L9 (which I have subsequently changed to an L7) and it's a great setup for my King 7B. I think it corresponds to a Yeo (but there was no Yeo mouthpiece back then).

When I don't play as much bass I also use a Marcinkiewicz George Roberts (it's the middle bass size -- between the 3 (1 1/2G size) and the 1 (around 59 size).

ttf_Dan Hine · Post by **ttf_Dan Hine** » Fri Sep 29, 2017 11:26 am

I think I'd look for something big in the used market first just to see if something bigger really feels more natural for you. Plus it would be cheaper. Then, go to the American Trombone Workshop next March(?) where you can try out many options without having to plunk down a bunch of money up front. You still may change but at least you'll have purchased something that you knew you wanted to try long term.

ttf_Stretch Longarm · Fri Sep 29, 2017 11:40 am

Don't go so big that you might end up sounding 'fluffy'...jazz bass bone is a different animal - you might need more 'snap' (crispness), or more focused projection, or brighness than you'll find in an orchestral setup. Just sayin'...I realize everyone is different...speak with Doug.

ttf_BassCase · Post by **ttf_BassCase** » Sat Sep 30, 2017 7:31 am

So far my G&W Chinook is fine for my 6B. High Cs are readily accessible for hitting some highs for solo work. Still looking, though. I played a 1G at Bones West and liked it. So I'm waiting for one I purchased on Ebay.

ttf_MTbassbone · Post by **ttf_MTbassbone** » Sat Sep 30, 2017 1:41 pm

A couple thoughts:
1. Try before you buy.
2. A particular player may have a deep dark sound, but this does not necessarily mean they play on a large mouthpiece. Even if they do it does not necessarily mean it will be right for you. Personally, I feel most brass players would be better served if they played the smallest mouthpiece they can get away with and still play the gig.
3. There's a balance. Some call it a compromise, but I like balance better. If you started to move too far away from the sweet spot where the tone is resonant and you have most of your musical tools at your disposal then it may not be worth it.
4. Don't fall into the trombone equipment arms race. There so many people that look to equipment to fix problems or miraculously make them better. I know, I was one of them. There was a point where I was changing mouthpieces so often I never really had much of a chance to make any sort of educated decisions. Pick something, stay with it, and practice. When I finally stuck with a mouthpiece, and just decided to make it work my playing improved. Took me a number of years, and I don't know how many thousands of dollars to figure this out. It's not worth it.

Recommendations....I don't have many really. I do highly recommend having a Skype or in-person session with Doug Elliott. If there are other factors at play he's not going to recommend something you don't need. Plus his return policy is very generous.

ttf_Ellrod · Post by **ttf_Ellrod** » Sat Sep 30, 2017 2:00 pm

Sometimes I wonder how Doug finds the time what with all the free advice he is asked for.

ttf_macbone · Post by **ttf_macbone** » Sat Sep 30, 2017 5:04 pm

For bass trb in big band, put Marcinkiewicz on your list. Definitely. They'll have to pry my Ernie Tack from my cold dead fingers. Can't go wrong with Doug Elliot either.

ttf_Blowero · Post by **ttf_Blowero** » Sat Sep 30, 2017 8:58 pm

I play a Stork 1S. I think it's great. Definitely no problem with it being too small.

ttf_modelerdc · Post by **ttf_modelerdc** » Sat Sep 30, 2017 9:42 pm

Laskey 85MD if you can stand the rim!!! Rath 1 1/4B or 1 1/4W is real punchy. Mount Vernon Bach 1 1/2G has a great sound, but too small for me. Elliot K cup with your choice of rim works very well.

ttf_Burgerbob · Post by **ttf_Burgerbob** » Sat Sep 30, 2017 10:18 pm

Rath 1 1/4W has the sound.

ttf_mr.deacon · Post by **ttf_mr.deacon** » Sat Sep 30, 2017 11:49 pm

If you're looking for something in the Schilke 60 range I highly recommend Doug's stuff, Griego (GP6, GP7 and Dave Taylor series), Hammond 21BL and Laskey 93D.

One thing to check is if you want something with a 59 style cup or something with the deeper Schilke 60 style cup. Depending on your ensemble sometimes you want a shallower cup, other times you want something deeper. With the giant cannon you've got personally I'm not sure I'd go with something too shallow...

I'd style away from Greg Black. They are amazing mouthpieces but I think they're going to give you a much darker sound then what you want. On a similar note I probably would also stay away from G&W. They play and feel amazing but I've yet to like my sound when I play on one.

If you go Doug's route I HIGHLY HIGHLY HIGHLY recommend checking out his 10 shank. I recently picked up a M10 shank for my LB114, M cup setup and it made a world of difference. Blows similar to a .312 mouthpiece like the GP6 or 93D and feels great on the rest of Doug setup. I'm not a huge fan of his 9 shank but it does seem to work but better in dual bore slides then it does in the single bore slides I play on.

Don't forget he has two different series of mouthpieces: LB, and the XB which comes in both light and heavy blanks. Basically both blanks for the XB series are just a lot heavier then the standard LB series.

Also check out his different cups. I love his M series cup which I use for all of my playing but his smaller K (like a 59 cup) and L (around the size of a true 60 cup) cups are perfect if you feel like the M cup is a tad too deep. I would stay away from his N cup though, it's SUPER deep.

ttf_MoominDave · Post by **ttf_MoominDave** » Sun Oct 01, 2017 1:23 am

Assuming that the OP is correct in their self-diagnosis of wanting something bigger...

The Rath B1 is worth a look at least as much as the two 1-1/4 models. It's a lot bigger (compare to Laskey 95D), but it is probably the best-balanced piece in that size range that I've tried. Doesn't sound tubby. Remember that video of Lionel Fumeaux that was flying around a couple of years ago? That was played on one of these. And while the mouthpiece doesn't make the player (obviously), he gives a good demo of the sound qualities naturally available from it.

Also second Marcinkiewicz, if you get on with narrower rims. Personally am playing mostly on their Bill Reichenbach model these days - which is only a bit wider about your Schilke 59 size but a very different kind of animal.

ttf_Matt K · Post by **ttf_Matt K** » Sun Oct 01, 2017 3:17 am

A friend of mine recently switched from a Hammond 21 something to an Elliott XB116/M/M10 as well. It sounds like it might be another one of Doug's more popular combinations. Doug has a good return policy is definitely worth checking out.

ttf_sonicsilver · Post by **ttf_sonicsilver** » Sun Oct 01, 2017 6:09 am

Quote from: MTbassbone on Sep 30, 2017, 01:41PM
3. There's a balance. Some call it a compromise, but I like balance better. If you started to move too far away from the sweet spot where the tone is resonant and you have most of your musical tools at your disposal then it may not be worth it.
4. Don't fall into the trombone equipment arms race. There so many people that look to equipment to fix problems or miraculously make them better. I know, I was one of them. There was a point where I was changing mouthpieces so often I never really had much of a chance to make any sort of educated decisions. Pick something, stay with it, and practice. When I finally stuck with a mouthpiece, and just decided to make it work my playing improved. Took me a number of years, and I don't know how many thousands of dollars to figure this out. It's not worth it.

That's excellent advice. Just wanted to see it appear again in this thread.

Dual bore slide is probably not helpful for big band bass trombone. Competing with the bari and the (amped) bass down low may seem to require big gear so you can blast. But in practice, some brightness in the sound, clarity in the articulations and great rhythmic accuracy help the bass trombone timbre to get into the mix much better. Tony Studd in the Quincy Jones big band is a good example, and of course George Roberts.

ttf_Full Pedal Trombonist · Sun Oct 01, 2017 5:08 pm

Dougs XBM/M10 is an astounding setup IMHO.

ttf_KingMan · Post by **ttf_KingMan** » Mon Oct 02, 2017 5:50 am

Contact Dave Harrison at Wedge Mouthpieces. You can try before you buy.

ttf_mattino37 · Post by **ttf_mattino37** » Mon Oct 02, 2017 10:13 am

I honestly didn't know Doug came out with a new XB series, and a 10 shank

. Is there a resource somewhere that has more information on it?

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Mon Oct 02, 2017 10:23 am

Quote from: mattino37 on Oct 02, 2017, 10:13AMI honestly didn't know Doug came out with a new XB series, and a 10 shank

. Is there a resource somewhere that has more information on it?

Bigger than LB? Why don't you guys just switch to a Bach 25 tuba mouthpiece and be done with it?

ttf_Doug Elliott · Post by **ttf_Doug Elliott** » Mon Oct 02, 2017 10:29 am

I haven't put anything on my website about that because it's not a complete set yet.

XB rims come in 112 through 117, both the regular narrow and medium-wide, and cups are K, L, M, and N so far.

L10 and M10 shanks are new, that's all there is now.

The XB series is not compatible with LB rims and cups, but as always the shanks go with any series as long as the cup letter and shank letter match.

Yes they're big, but nowhere near any tuba mouthpiece size.

ttf_wgwbassbone · Post by **ttf_wgwbassbone** » Mon Oct 02, 2017 10:45 am

IMHO you're going about this all wrong. First of all the Edwards that you are playing blows in a way that what little overtones there are will get buried with all of the sound around you. A bigger mouthpiece is also not really going to help. Bigger, bigger, bigger will just have you working harder in a situation where you cannot win. An instrument with a quick response will work much better. A mouthpiece with some "back pressure" will allow you to shape the sound in a way that will carry throughout the ensemble. Just my 2 cents.

ttf_Ellrod · Post by **ttf_Ellrod** » Mon Oct 02, 2017 11:24 am

I'm no expert, but it seems to me that the "jazz bass bone" players that come to my mind - Dave Taylor, Bill Reichenbach, Phil Teele for example - do not play Schilke 60-sized mpcs.

ttf_Dan Hine · Post by **ttf_Dan Hine** » Mon Oct 02, 2017 11:28 am

Another thing to keep in mind is that players like Jeff Cortazo are outliers. They are not the norm. Jeff plays what he plays because he's Jeff Cortazo.

ttf_wgwbassbone · Post by **ttf_wgwbassbone** » Mon Oct 02, 2017 11:55 am

Quote from: Burgerbob on Sep 30, 2017, 10:18PMRath 1 1/4W has the sound.

Might have your sound. Not my sound.

ttf_mattino37 · Post by **ttf_mattino37** » Mon Oct 02, 2017 12:28 pm

So I know about the trend of bass bones just playing bigger and bigger, and I completely understand that. I just feel that a larger rim would fit me better, cup wise, I don't really know, but I definitely feel like a larger mouthpiece would fit my face better.
Also I really appreciate all the feedback, the more the better!

ttf_Doug Elliott · Post by **ttf_Doug Elliott** » Mon Oct 02, 2017 12:31 pm

Quick response is essential, from both horn and mouthpiece. But "quick response" in a mouthpiece means having it big enough in the right ways (not the wrong ways) that allows that quick response. For a lot of players, a smaller mouthpiece slows down the response, especially in the bottom if the horn. That can be worked on, up to a point.

ttf_blast · Post by **ttf_blast** » Mon Oct 02, 2017 12:32 pm

Quote from: wgwbassbone on Oct 02, 2017, 10:45AMIMHO you're going about this all wrong. First of all the Edwards that you are playing blows in a way that what little overtones there are will get buried with all of the sound around you. A bigger mouthpiece is also not really going to help. Bigger, bigger, bigger will just have you working harder in a situation where you cannot win. An instrument with a quick response will work much better. A mouthpiece with some "back pressure" will allow you to shape the sound in a way that will carry throughout the ensemble. Just my 2 cents.

Well Bill, you might be right but you won't be popular.... at least with a large number of people here....
Glad you said it though, because I couldn't be bothered, to be honest.
That student of mine that you heard in the summer just came back from playing Mahler 3 with the Philharmonia Orchestra.... boy did he sound good today.... and he blew the **** out of the last part of 'Sub Zero'... on a Bach 2G....

Chris Stearn

ttf_blast · Post by **ttf_blast** » Mon Oct 02, 2017 12:35 pm

Oh, and bigger rims suit me better..... so I play a Bach 1 1/2G.... because it sounds how I want to sound.... and an Bach 11 on small tenor.... because... etc etc.

Chris Stearn

ttf_wgwbassbone · Post by **ttf_wgwbassbone** » Mon Oct 02, 2017 12:52 pm

Quote from: blast on Oct 02, 2017, 12:32PMWell Bill, you might be right but you won't be popular.... at least with a large number of people here....
Glad you said it though, because I couldn't be bothered, to be honest.
That student of mine that you heard in the summer just came back from playing Mahler 3 with the Philharmonia Orchestra.... boy did he sound good today.... and he blew the **** out of the last part of 'Sub Zero'... on a Bach 2G....

Chris Stearn
Chris you've done a great job with him. I can only imagine how much better he sounds since March.

ttf_wgwbassbone · Post by **ttf_wgwbassbone** » Mon Oct 02, 2017 12:56 pm

Quote from: mattino37 on Oct 02, 2017, 12:28PMSo I know about the trend of bass bones just playing bigger and bigger, and I completely understand that. I just feel that a larger rim would fit me better, cup wise, I don't really know, but I definitely feel like a larger mouthpiece would fit my face better.
Also I really appreciate all the feedback, the more the better!

Mattino37 I'm not sure that all players are going bigger these days. Many new products, especially valves, on the market these days that can make everyone at least think a little more about what to choose. I'm not your teacher and I'm not suggesting that you play a 2G but unless you're a freak of nature(I mean that complimentary)playing in a big band on an Edwards 454 and a Schilke 60 size mouthpiece is a heck of a lot of work.

ttf_FlamingRain · Post by **ttf_FlamingRain** » Mon Oct 02, 2017 10:06 pm

Maybe I'm seeing this the wrong way but I find it pretty immature to make value judgements on other people's wants and needs based upon what you think should work, which I find ironic because I'm pretty young and immature myself

Suggesting that someone you don't know will be successful on smaller mouthpieces just because (insert your favorite bass trombonist here) plays on it with no knowledge of the player, their anatomy, their sound, their chops, or sound concepts and goals sounds to me a lot like throwing a dart at a dartboard that doesn't exist. Maybe they do. Maybe they don't.

Maybe I'm biased because I absolutely can't play on small mouthpieces. I play on tenor a rim that's around the size of a Bach 2G, (XT N106). Yes, really, I didn't believe it myself at first. Yes, I have a useable high range up to double Bb sometimes

8va. When I play bass I play larger mouthpieces, and I don't feel it inhibits my sound or range. I know that I am one of the most common embouchure types which gravitates towards large, and that is a reason many STRONG professionals use fairly large mouthpieces on bass. My low AND high range gets extremely worse when I try to play on anything smaller than a Bach 5g. I can't even get below a middle F on a 12c without doing some seriously stupid things with my chops.

I think what is the best idea is to find what works the best for YOU. This is where getting Doug's advice is helpful because he will find what MEASURABLY works for you, quantifiably and repeatedly, and will give you good opinions (and sometimes he even recommends against buying one of his mouthpieces). It's important to have a teacher that will work with you and actually LISTEN TO YOUR PLAYING and not just see their own flaws in your playing and try to regurgitate what worked for them. I think you will be surprised how many teachers do that.

Sometimes your gut intuition that you need a larger mouthpiece is right (which is what my gut was telling me but I couldn't believe), and sometimes your intuition completely wrong. This is just rim size, too, not even talking about cup depth. If your playing isn't very strong or figured out it can be REALLY hard to tell and sometimes it IS the best idea to stick with what you have and go with it. If your playing isn't well developed enough, you're not going to have any kind of clue what to look for in a mouthpiece, and you can be subject to your own confirmation bias or even confuse yourself further.

I've only listed off a few of the possibilities while I'm sitting taking a break from practicing

Someone call me out if I'm way off base here, but I dislike when people tell me (or others) what to do based on something that is irrelevant and unquantifiable.

EDIT:

Quote from: Dan Hine on Oct 02, 2017, 11:28AMAnother thing to keep in mind is that players like Jeff Cortazo are outliers. They are not the norm. Jeff plays what he plays because he's Jeff Cortazo.

I also seriously disagree with this because I feel like it completely discredits Jeff Cortazzo's work to get where he is, which I'm sure he's had to make his sacrifices and put in the countless hours to become a professional musician just like what all of us do or want to do.

Back to practicing...

ttf_savio · Post by **ttf_savio** » Mon Oct 02, 2017 11:04 pm

Jazz can be played on anything. But about mouthpiece I personally think the trend towards bigger has gone too fare among bass players. It must be allowed to say it, bigger and bigger isn't the way to go, classical or jazz. The last decades has gone way to big in equipment.

It is possible to work at things, make things work. Sound, color, that is interesting in ensembles and audience is really very important.

Leif

ttf_blast · Post by **ttf_blast** » Mon Oct 02, 2017 11:52 pm

Quote from: FlamingRain on Oct 02, 2017, 10:06PMMaybe I'm seeing this the wrong way but I find it pretty immature to make value judgements on other people's wants and needs based upon what you think should work, which I find ironic because I'm pretty young and immature myself

Suggesting that someone you don't know will be successful on smaller mouthpieces just because (insert your favorite bass trombonist here) plays on it with no knowledge of the player, their anatomy, their sound, their chops, or sound concepts and goals sounds to me a lot like throwing a dart at a dartboard that doesn't exist. Maybe they do. Maybe they don't.

Maybe I'm biased because I absolutely can't play on small mouthpieces. I play on tenor a rim that's around the size of a Bach 2G, (XT N106). Yes, really, I didn't believe it myself at first. Yes, I have a useable high range up to double Bb sometimes

8va. When I play bass I play larger mouthpieces, and I don't feel it inhibits my sound or range. I know that I am one of the most common embouchure types which gravitates towards large, and that is a reason many STRONG professionals use fairly large mouthpieces on bass. My low AND high range gets extremely worse when I try to play on anything smaller than a Bach 5g. I can't even get below a middle F on a 12c without doing some seriously stupid things with my chops.

I think what is the best idea is to find what works the best for YOU. This is where getting Doug's advice is helpful because he will find what MEASURABLY works for you, quantifiably and repeatedly, and will give you good opinions (and sometimes he even recommends against buying one of his mouthpieces). It's important to have a teacher that will work with you and actually LISTEN TO YOUR PLAYING and not just see their own flaws in your playing and try to regurgitate what worked for them. I think you will be surprised how many teachers do that.

Sometimes your gut intuition that you need a larger mouthpiece is right (which is what my gut was telling me but I couldn't believe), and sometimes your intuition completely wrong. This is just rim size, too, not even talking about cup depth. If your playing isn't very strong or figured out it can be REALLY hard to tell and sometimes it IS the best idea to stick with what you have and go with it. If your playing isn't well developed enough, you're not going to have any kind of clue what to look for in a mouthpiece, and you can be subject to your own confirmation bias or even confuse yourself further.

I've only listed off a few of the possibilities while I'm sitting taking a break from practicing

Someone call me out if I'm way off base here, but I dislike when people tell me (or others) what to do based on something that is irrelevant and unquantifiable.

EDIT:

I also seriously disagree with this because I feel like it completely discredits Jeff Cortazzo's work to get where he is, which I'm sure he's had to make his sacrifices and put in the countless hours to become a professional musician just like what all of us do or want to do.

Back to practicing...

This is why I post less and less these days.

I told Bill that people wouldn't like what he said.

I am not telling anybody to do anything, simply pointing out that equipment has to have certain characteristics to give certain sounds.

I can, and have, played very large mouthpieces at the highest professional levels. Getting the right sound.... for me.... on that equipment is harder than on smaller equipment, on bass trombone.

Sound concepts in the UK are generally very different from those in much of the US, it would seem.

I don't even tell my own students what to play on....

That is part of their growing experience.

This is not at all the best place to talk about these things.

Talking about sound is like dancing about books.

Enough.

Chris Stearn

ttf_bigbassbone1 · Post by **ttf_bigbassbone1** » Tue Oct 03, 2017 12:45 am

Quote from: blast on Oct 02, 2017, 11:52PMThis is why I post less and less these days.

I told Bill that people wouldn't like what he said.

I am not telling anybody to do anything, simply pointing out that equipment has to have certain characteristics to give certain sounds.

I can, and have, played very large mouthpieces at the highest professional levels. Getting the right sound.... for me.... on that equipment is harder than on smaller equipment, on bass trombone.

Sound concepts in the UK are generally very different from those in much of the US, it would seem.

I don't even tell my own students what to play on....

That is part of their growing experience.

This is not at all the best place to talk about these things.

Talking about sound is like dancing about books.

Enough.

Chris Stearn

I don't think it is really that people don't like what he said at all. I believe it is important to hear testimonials from successful people that have had good experiences doing what they do! It's more that certain people want to confirm that there are in fact other options.

It is great to see who is using what equipment, and read what success and why they have had on it. It of course doesn't mean that it will work for everyone but it is great to read how people approach playing with particular gear and It can be helpful in exploring your own abilities and concept of sound (it has for me!).

You are of course correct about this is not the best place to discuss these kind of things. Unfortunately it is difficult to gauge tone over text, so everyone interprets a written piece slightly differently.
I have said this before in other threads, but it looks like the popular opinion here on the forum kind of looks down on players (particularly students) who use larger gear. We have a sticky topic specifically for the 1 1/2G where many posts read as though players have "achieved enlightenment" by playing those pieces and other people who dont, either dont play properly or simply are not at a level of musical understanding to know why those smaller pieces are "better". I mean, people on here use the word "magic" to describe Mt. Vernon 1/2 G's.... they might be, for some. But there are plenty of players who sound magical who are not paying on one. I know that sounds like it should be common knowledge, but I think it's easy to forget sometimes here on the forum. Especially when there is no sticky thread titled "who in their right mind plays a schilke 60?"

There is no easy fix but I personally would be very sad see people like you Chris Stearn posting less because of a post like what you quoted. Is that not part of the fun?

ttf_Dan Hine · Post by **ttf_Dan Hine** » Tue Oct 03, 2017 3:37 am

Quote from: Dan Hine on Oct 02, 2017, 11:28AMAnother thing to keep in mind is that players like Jeff Cortazo are outliers. They are not the norm. Jeff plays what he plays because he's Jeff Cortazo.

Quote from: FlamingRain on Oct 02, 2017, 10:06PM
I also seriously disagree with this because I feel like it completely discredits Jeff Cortazzo's work to get where he is, which I'm sure he's had to make his sacrifices and put in the countless hours to become a professional musician just like what all of us do or want to do.

I cannot control how you interpret things but I can tell you that the intent of my post was in no way meant to discredit him. Quite the opposite, in fact. Jeff is an elite musician who plays bass trombone at the highest level. He has no doubt worked his tail off. I don't what to say beyond that. I've spent about 20 minutes trying to figure out why you took my statement the way I did and cannot figure it out.

ttf_Dan Hine · Post by **ttf_Dan Hine** » Tue Oct 03, 2017 3:50 am

Quote from: blast on Oct 02, 2017, 11:52PMThis is why I post less and less these days.

Chris, I joined the forum in 2002 (I'm pretty sure before that but when it was the OTJ Forum - if I recall correctly). I was 22. Every now and then I find posts I made early on and they make me cringe a bit. Sometimes I find things I've said to others that make me cringe a bit harder. This is the internet where the lack of immediate response emboldens us to say whatever we want without prior reflection. When we're young we want to be heard. The more we grow, the more we want to listen.

Many of us here appreciate your posts and I'm certain that many more will come to find value in them over time. If you choose to post less - that's fine. Man, a lot of us SHOULD post less. But you'd be missed!

- Dan...who plays a Holton TR-180...and a MV 1.5g.

ttf_wgwbassbone · Post by **ttf_wgwbassbone** » Tue Oct 03, 2017 4:53 am

Quote from: FlamingRain on Oct 02, 2017, 10:06PMMaybe I'm seeing this the wrong way but I find it pretty immature to make value judgements on other people's wants and needs based upon what you think should work, which I find ironic because I'm pretty young and immature myself

Suggesting that someone you don't know will be successful on smaller mouthpieces just because (insert your favorite bass trombonist here) plays on it with no knowledge of the player, their anatomy, their sound, their chops, or sound concepts and goals sounds to me a lot like throwing a dart at a dartboard that doesn't exist. Maybe they do. Maybe they don't.

Maybe I'm biased because I absolutely can't play on small mouthpieces. I play on tenor a rim that's around the size of a Bach 2G, (XT N106). Yes, really, I didn't believe it myself at first. Yes, I have a useable high range up to double Bb sometimes

8va. When I play bass I play larger mouthpieces, and I don't feel it inhibits my sound or range. I know that I am one of the most common embouchure types which gravitates towards large, and that is a reason many STRONG professionals use fairly large mouthpieces on bass. My low AND high range gets extremely worse when I try to play on anything smaller than a Bach 5g. I can't even get below a middle F on a 12c without doing some seriously stupid things with my chops.

I think what is the best idea is to find what works the best for YOU. This is where getting Doug's advice is helpful because he will find what MEASURABLY works for you, quantifiably and repeatedly, and will give you good opinions (and sometimes he even recommends against buying one of his mouthpieces). It's important to have a teacher that will work with you and actually LISTEN TO YOUR PLAYING and not just see their own flaws in your playing and try to regurgitate what worked for them. I think you will be surprised how many teachers do that.

Sometimes your gut intuition that you need a larger mouthpiece is right (which is what my gut was telling me but I couldn't believe), and sometimes your intuition completely wrong. This is just rim size, too, not even talking about cup depth. If your playing isn't very strong or figured out it can be REALLY hard to tell and sometimes it IS the best idea to stick with what you have and go with it. If your playing isn't well developed enough, you're not going to have any kind of clue what to look for in a mouthpiece, and you can be subject to your own confirmation bias or even confuse yourself further.

I've only listed off a few of the possibilities while I'm sitting taking a break from practicing

Someone call me out if I'm way off base here, but I dislike when people tell me (or others) what to do based on something that is irrelevant and unquantifiable.

EDIT:

I also seriously disagree with this because I feel like it completely discredits Jeff Cortazzo's work to get where he is, which I'm sure he's had to make his sacrifices and put in the countless hours to become a professional musician just like what all of us do or want to do.

Back to practicing...

If you completely read our posts and actually knew who some of us are, meaning the experience we have, maybe you'd think twice before writing this post. However maybe you wouldn't. No one said "Hey OP you're an idiot for doing this." Some of us have been playing and teaching for longer than you've probably been alive. Doesn't make us right but some of us have perspectives that you might not. Speaking for myself I believe that I was careful in wording my statements towards mattino37. If one cannot take advice into consideration that's at least worded professionally then there is no hope. But at least your immature disclaimer at the beginning of your post is out there.

ttf_Doug Elliott · Post by **ttf_Doug Elliott** » Tue Oct 03, 2017 6:29 am

I think we've all posted things we shouldn't have, but there's a lot of good things in that post.

We are all a product of our experiences, and some of that involves spending time on equipment that we learned something from.

ttf_FlamingRain · Post by **ttf_FlamingRain** » Tue Oct 03, 2017 8:38 am

For the record, I definitely didn't mean to come off maybe as hostile or sound disrespectful. I love having discussions and debates like this which is why I've tried to be more active on these forums recently. I find it fascinating learning about other people's experiences. I wrote that post to challenge you guys so that maybe I could even understand more your point of view. I will say that telling OP that "he's going about it all wrong" is pretty off-putting to someone who might be younger. No, I don't know you all personally and I don't know your MUCH more vast experiences, but I did see something that I questioned so I put my thoughts in so maybe you guys could even refute it and I could see your experience better. Glad I did post it, but maybe should have rephrased some things...

ttf_hyperbolica · Post by **ttf_hyperbolica** » Tue Oct 03, 2017 8:48 am

Quote from: FlamingRain on Oct 03, 2017, 08:38AMFor the record, I definitely didn't mean to come off maybe as hostile or sound disrespectful. I love having discussions and debates like this which is why I've tried to be more active on these forums recently. I find it fascinating learning about other people's experiences. I wrote that post to challenge you guys so that maybe I could even understand more your point of view. I will say that telling OP that "he's going about it all wrong" is pretty off-putting to someone who might be younger. No, I don't know you all personally and I don't know your MUCH more vast experiences, but I did see something that I questioned so I put my thoughts in so maybe you guys could even refute it and I could see your experience better. Glad I did post it, but maybe should have rephrased some things...

Younger people often assume either they or their experiences are unique. This is because you're seeing things for the first time, and everything is new and unique to you. When you get a little older, and you've seen things more than once, you start to see patterns in nature, stuff isn't as unique any more, and you realize the old adage is true "there is nothing new under the sun". You would do well to learn from other people's experience so you don't have to make the same mistakes they made earlier. Cocky punk-ass kids come through here every week, and get easier to ignore every time.

ttf_Bellend · Post by **ttf_Bellend** » Tue Oct 03, 2017 10:09 am

Just to chuck my two cents worth in..... Having in the past worked in pro big bands in the UK the bass trombone players that were most highly thought of were the ones that blended with the rest of the section who were all playing horns in the 2B-3B size range . All the guys were good players but some weren't listening to the environment they were playing in. If you can blend with the smaller horns on big equipment,great but if you can't you ain't doing your job and need to re-evaluate how to achieve the best musical result for everyone.

BellEnd

ttf_wgwbassbone · Post by **ttf_wgwbassbone** » Tue Oct 03, 2017 11:14 am

Quote from: FlamingRain on Oct 03, 2017, 08:38AMFor the record, I definitely didn't mean to come off maybe as hostile or sound disrespectful. I love having discussions and debates like this which is why I've tried to be more active on these forums recently. I find it fascinating learning about other people's experiences. I wrote that post to challenge you guys so that maybe I could even understand more your point of view. I will say that telling OP that "he's going about it all wrong" is pretty off-putting to someone who might be younger. No, I don't know you all personally and I don't know your MUCH more vast experiences, but I did see something that I questioned so I put my thoughts in so maybe you guys could even refute it and I could see your experience better. Glad I did post it, but maybe should have rephrased some things...

This didnt help you much in my eyes.

ttf_Ellrod · Post by **ttf_Ellrod** » Tue Oct 03, 2017 11:43 am

"Questioning" is good. "Challenging", maybe not so good.

ttf_Stan · Post by **ttf_Stan** » Tue Oct 03, 2017 11:51 am

Just found this thread. Bill and Sascha are both coming off as a little condescending. Bill definitely has the bona fides to do that if he wishes.

Can't we all agree that this is an intensely personal thing that has to do with how your sound concept, psychology, psychology, and ensemble mates all come together? There's not wrong mouthpiece. There's no right mouthpiece. Sam B. would likely remind us that we've got to pick the right tool for the job, and Duke Ellington would also say that if it sounds good, it is good.

If what you've got isn't working, make a change. If it gets worse, change it back?

ttf_Dan Hine · Post by **ttf_Dan Hine** » Tue Oct 03, 2017 12:14 pm

Quote from: Stan on Oct 03, 2017, 11:51AMBill and Sascha are both coming off as a little condescending.

With life in general, but DEFINITELY life on the internet, how we interpret something is usually more related to our own mindset and intent than someone else's. We read into things what we (subconsciously) NEED to see in order to justify the response we intend to give.

ttf_CJ · Post by **ttf_CJ** » Tue Oct 03, 2017 1:23 pm

Rather than a personal favorite, perhaps the OP would be curious to know (as would I): what would those of you with some degree of experience in these matters recommend to someone who is new to playing bass in a big band setting?

...assuming appropriate gear, anatomy, etc.