TromboneChat

I hope I'm posting this in the right place.

I've only started learning trombone 7 weeks ago, so I'm still very new to playing. (Although both my sons played trombone, one up into college, so I'm not new to the instrument itself.) I'm self-learning with some YouTube videos (Beginner Band with Mr. Walls), and the Hal Leonard Essentials Trombone 1 book. I'm at the point where I can play all the notes in the Gb major scale (Bb, C, D, Eb, F, G, A, Bb). It's fair sounding with mistakes.

My question is: Every so often, maybe once a week, I'll have a practice session where my lips don't want to cooperate. I have trouble hitting -and sustaining- the right notes, often double-buzzing. Is there a plausible explanation for that?

And it often seems to come after a practice where I really felt I was improving. It's really frustrating.

And a follow-up question, how long will it take before I can hit the right note the first time? I seem to have most trouble with Bb 1st partial. It starts out somewhere else before it settles down. It's not so much a problem on 2nd partials, but 1st and 3rd partials is where it occurs most. Maybe my lips are best attuned to 2nd partial? Or I just need more practice to build lip strength?

Thanks.

Have patience. We all have up and down days. As you gain your technique the down days won't be as bad.

If you really can't do anything, take a day off. Sometimes you need to let your embouchure relax and absorb the progress you made the previous day. This especially happens as you build range, but you aren't at that point yet.

When can you hit a note cleanly? Well, it probably takes more than a few weeks. But it will happen.

Keep at it.

The Remington Warmup is a good start at developing a daily routine for consistent progress.

Here's a download, or you can buy the book, it's cheap.

http://www.boneswest.org/pdf/Remington.pdf

Good advice here.

Let me add that now that you have been playing for a little bit, you may consider getting a "chops" lesson with Doug Elliott or myself via Skype to help with your embouchure placement, development, etc. It's possible that putting that part of the puzzle in order early can save you a lot of time in the long run.

ShadowFerret wrote: ↑Wed Apr 04, 2018 10:59 am
And a follow-up question, how long will it take before I can hit the right note the first time? I seem to have most trouble with Bb 1st partial. It starts out somewhere else before it settles down. It's not so much a problem on 2nd partials, but 1st and 3rd partials is where it occurs most. Maybe my lips are best attuned to 2nd partial? Or I just need more practice to build lip strength?

Thanks.

Do you really mean first partial? Pedal Bb, an octave below is not a note I would expect you to have much use for yet. The Bb in the second partial, is a super important note you want to be able to hit cleanly and reliably.

The days your chops don't work sound like fatigue to me. Maybe you push yourself a little too hard on those previous days when everything seems good. Stamina is one of the many qualities that will improve with practice.

Do you have a teacher? At this point it would really help.

Oh, and welcome to trombone playing and the forum.

StevenC, I do not yet have a live human teacher. Someday.

And to be honest, I haven't fully grasped some of the jargon. I have a Trombone Slide Position Chart and it refers to a 1st Partial (begins with 1st position Bb, 2nd line on the Bass Clef, like you have diagrammed for 2nd Partial), 2nd Partial (begins 1st position F, 2nd line from top of Bass Clef), 3rd Partial (begins with 1st position Bb, the space above the top line of the Bass Clef), and so on up to the 5th Partial (F, 3rd space above the top line od the Bass Clef).

I haven't quite figured out what is meant by pedal. One reference stated it had to do with the deep bass of a church organ, because it uses pedals, but I got the impression those notes were below the trombone's Bb range, as you stated.

I've also heard the term harmonics, I don't know what is meant by that in relation to a trombone. On a guitar, a harmonic is caused by lightly touching the string at certain points and making it ring an octave or more above the string's basic note.

Thanks for the help.

A short lesson in jargon:

1. A trombone is an open tube (open at both ends) with the vibrator (your lips) placed at one end.

2. The trombone resonates with integral wave lengths filling the tube. One tube length is "pedal Bb", located 2 ledger lines and the space below the bass staff. It is not commonly used. The first harmonic is 2 wave lengths filling the tube and is the low Bb on the 2nd line of the staff. 3 wave lengths is the F on the 4th line of the staff (2nd harmonic). 4 wave lengths is Bb on top of the bass staff (3rd harmonic).

3. We generally claim that 8 partials (to the 7th harmonic) is useful. This is Bb 4 lines above the bass staff.

4. "Tuning Bb" normally refers to the 3rd harmonic (top of the bass staff). Some beginner bands may use low Bb to tune since the players can't reliably hit the upper Bb.

5. Generally the notes on the 2nd harmonic are not as strong as notes in higher harmonics and spending a lot of time on a small bore trombone will cause you to be lost within the ensemble. Players specializing in these lower notes generally use a larger bore instrument.

Note: the Remington Warmups can be a bit challenging for a beginning player. You may find some of the notes just aren't there. If you can't play a particular exercise, put it off until you get more capability.

BGuttman wrote: ↑Wed Apr 04, 2018 5:00 pm 2. The trombone resonates with integral wave lengths filling the tube. One tube length is "pedal Bb", located 2 ledger lines and the space below the bass staff. It is not commonly used. The first harmonic is 2 wave lengths filling the tube and is the low Bb on the 2nd line of the staff. 3 wave lengths is the F on the 4th line of the staff (2nd harmonic). 4 wave lengths is Bb on top of the bass staff (3rd harmonic).

Just a little nitpicking: the tube length is approx 270 cm. Assuming a sound speed of 340 m/s, a wave of 2.7 m wavelength has a frequency of 340/2.7 Hz = 126 Hz. This is not a pedal Bb, but between B2 and C3 ( - ). To get the pedal tones, apparently something called "the bell effect" is needed.

There is an explanation of this here: http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hb ... mbone.html. Not that I understand half of it though

In any event, your explanation is way more intuitive and easier to grasp. But it's not quite correct, strictly speaking.

Just a side note:

Forget about the slide charts as soon as possible! Learn the harmonics, then rely an your ears, a piano oder a tuner!

There are no "positions"!!

From time to time I play with an ensemble, where there's guy (playing "bass" on a small bore because can't reach the higher notes...) who notes the "slide positions" in his charts: Not one single note in tune! I just drown him, when I play with this group, so the sound in front of the group is not too false to the auditors.

BGuttman wrote: ↑Wed Apr 04, 2018 5:00 pm
2. The trombone resonates with integral wave lengths filling the tube. One tube length is "pedal Bb", located 2 ledger lines and the space below the bass staff. It is not commonly used. The first harmonic is 2 wave lengths filling the tube and is the low Bb on the 2nd line of the staff. 3 wave lengths is the F on the 4th line of the staff (2nd harmonic). 4 wave lengths is Bb on top of the bass staff (3rd harmonic).

Hey Bruce, the fundamental (Pedal B flat) is the 1st harmonic. The three ocatave of B flats above that are the 2nd, 4th, and 8th harmonics.

Tooloud wrote: ↑Thu Apr 05, 2018 7:39 am Just a side note:

Forget about the slide charts as soon as possible! Learn the harmonics, then rely an your ears, a piano oder a tuner!

There are no "positions"!!

From time to time I play with an ensemble, where there's guy (playing "bass" on a small bore because can't reach the higher notes...) who notes the "slide positions" in his charts: Not one single note in tune! I just drown him, when I play with this group, so the sound in front of the group is not too false to the auditors.

For the purposes of learning an instrument, having a system, or framework, upon which you build is very useful and encouraging. So, yes there are positions. I understand your meaning, but for practical purposes, there are. Besides, it helps us communicate with other trombonists, something perhaps you should be endeavoring to do with the guy you like to drown out. If you could help the guy fix his intonation, you might get better results.

To the original OP - yes, learn the harmonics, etc., and take the positions with a grain of salt. They are not meaningless, but they are not absolute, either.

Besides, it helps us communicate with other trombonists, something perhaps you should be endeavoring to do with the guy you like to drown out. If you could help the guy fix his intonation, you might get better results.
[/quote]
I tried to - sometimes I even pulled out a tunig device to persuade him, with no effect, but but angry looks from him. So after a short while I let it be. Don't want to be the the a.. in his eyes. But he ist very fond of himself and his playing. Even likes to show off with 'funny' moves of the trombone when playing BigBand-Style music.

On topic: I said: "As soon as possible" knowing that for an absolute beginner without brass-playing background the charts might prove helpful. To a certain degree. But trumpet and frech horn-players often (transposing) just read "fingerings" instead of music. That's not us!