Jet-Tone Design

ttf_Pteranabone · Post by **ttf_Pteranabone** » Fri Aug 11, 2017 8:53 pm

In the 70's, many prominent brass players were playing (or at least endorsing) Jet-Tones. (I bought the Urbie Green "M" as a student, contrary to my instructor's advice). I note that they are of a lighter material than most mouthpieces and lack plating. They are also all V shaped rather than cupped. Anyone have any knowledge in why they chose their engineering design parameters? Also, how did they garner so many endorsements (beyond the obvious $ answer).

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Fri Aug 11, 2017 10:14 pm

You may notice that there weren't many classical players endorsing Jet Tones. I have a Jet Tone B. It's a good "high note getter" but I never liked my tone on it. Apparently not too many other folks did either. I think some of them were aluminum. Mine seems to be.

ttf_Driswood · Post by **ttf_Driswood** » Sat Aug 12, 2017 3:31 pm

Quote from: Pteranabone on Aug 11, 2017, 08:53PMIn the 70's, many prominent brass players were playing (or at least endorsing) Jet-Tones. (I bought the Urbie Green "M" as a student, contrary to my instructor's advice). I note that they are of a lighter material than most mouthpieces and lack plating. They are also all V shaped rather than cupped. Anyone have any knowledge in why they chose their engineering design parameters? Also, how did they garner so many endorsements (beyond the obvious $ answer).

I'm pretty sure they had an option of mouthpieces made from aluminum. Would be light and would require no plating.

Jerry Walker

ttf_Dukesboneman · Post by **ttf_Dukesboneman** » Sat Aug 12, 2017 4:33 pm

Most Jet Tone Mouthpieces were around a 12C-ish size. They also made the oddist Bass Trombone mouthpiece I`ve ever seen.
For a very brief period in the 1980`s they made a 6 1/2 Al and a 7C. I have one of the 7C`s made out of Aluminum.
The rim contour feels very much like my Doug Elliott 98 rim.The Mouthpiece gets a different sound (slightly) because of the alluminum.
A sound tech friend of mine that also makes speakers said that he stopped using aluminum because it does`nt react to sound vibrations that same as say - Brass
I always thought the design was cool looking.

ttf_Pre59 · Post by **ttf_Pre59** » Sun Aug 13, 2017 1:55 am

I had a Buddy Morrow model. It was silver plated and had what I can only describe as an inverted cup, played high very easily with a clear cutting sound. It was about the same width as an 11C, but had a flatter rim, and I used it to liven up a "butchered" Bach 12 horn.

You can see a little of the shape here; the inside profile is similar to outer.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Jet-Tone-jet-tone-mouthpiece-reissue-series-trombone-BM-Buddy-Morrow-mode-P-O-/112456526625?epid=1263001356&hash=item1a2eee6b21:g:LWgAAOSwAO9ZUCfa

ttf_oslide · Post by **ttf_oslide** » Sun Aug 13, 2017 5:48 am

Looks like an extreme double cup, if I see it right.

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Sun Aug 13, 2017 8:26 am

I don't know about the Buddy Morrow model, but mine (B) was a "single cup".

ttf_Pre59 · Post by **ttf_Pre59** » Sun Aug 13, 2017 9:48 am

Quote from: oslide on Aug 13, 2017, 05:48AMLooks like an extreme double cup, if I see it right.

Not really, the inside dropped straight down a little way, and the cup or bowl was concave rather than convex. One of a kind?

ttf_novalvz · Post by **ttf_novalvz** » Thu Aug 17, 2017 6:54 pm

I have an original one in brass. Stamped "BUDDY MORROW MODEL 1" .

The inner cup shape is as described by Pre59.

ttf_TromboneMonkey · Post by **ttf_TromboneMonkey** » Thu Aug 17, 2017 6:57 pm

The Ms and Ds that I've seen have a cup that goes up to the edge of the throat and then drops immediately into the throat (a very clean, hard angle). Other than the Morrow I used to own, I've never played one I thought was usable, much less good.

ttf_kempsmj · Post by **ttf_kempsmj** » Sat Aug 19, 2017 2:15 pm

I purchased a used trombone (Kühnl & Hoyer Bart van Lier .512) and in the case was a Jet Tone Studio Model M.

I don't like the mouthpiece. It is nearly impossible to have a good tone while playing soft.
This is a mouthpiece for playing loud all the time... and even then the tone was to bright for me.

I keep using the Yamaha GP45c2 which allows me to have a warm and clear tone in all dynamics.

But mouthpieces are very personal. So just try before you buy.

ttf_Steve Foote · Post by **ttf_Steve Foote** » Sat Aug 19, 2017 7:54 pm

I have a JT catalog copywriten 1990. There were two series of mouthpieces in silver plated brass - Studio and Urbie Green. Each series has Shallow (S), Medium (M) and Deep(D).
All except the Studio S have a .969 in. rim. The Studio S has a .984 in. rim. The Studio S was formerly known as the Buddy Morrow #2. I had a Studio D and still have UG D & S. I cannot speak as to the shape of the Studio S but the D had straight walls which went down maybe 1/4 or 3/8" and then went to a funnel with no transition either from the walls to the "cup" or from the "cup" to the throat. I could play it and got a decent tone but I was exhausted after about 5 minutes. I "gave" it to Troy and he was kind enough to send me a little money for what I considered worthless junk.
The Urbie S & D that I have look like a Bach 12C on the inside but there is less transition from the cup to the throat. They have a smaller throat and backbore which prevents you from pushing much air through so volume is limited. I used the UG S just a little but used the UG D quite a bit.
The aluminum mouthpieces are listed as 6-1/2 AL, 7-C and 12-C.
About this same time, 1990, I had a trumpet playing friend who got JT to produce a limited run (maybe 25 or 30) of a mouthpiece they had discontinued. Apparently they would make what you wanted if it was economically profitable to do so.
Based on this I would not be surprised at anything that turns up with a JT name on it.

ttf_Bellend · Post by **ttf_Bellend** » Fri Aug 25, 2017 2:36 am

The JT Urbie mouthpieces just go to show that a great player can sound good on anything

as I don't know anyone else who ever used them for any length of time.
The same goes for the King 28 Urbie used, beats me how he made all those beautiful sounds on it,very weird design.

I think some of the aluminium JT stuff was anodized on the outside into some pretty funky colours, but then it was the 70's

ttf_dershem · Post by **ttf_dershem** » Fri Aug 25, 2017 7:35 pm

JT did a fair amount of custom work. I still have a custom trumpet 'piece they did for me in '78, as well as a few trombone pieces. I liked the aluminum, but it didn't work for some folks - if you had an acid metabolism, it corroded badly inside, and filled up with stuff.
Their design included a 'back cut' inside the rim, and very efficient cup shape that a lot of people didn't like because it gave a very clear, sometimes cutting tone - great for jazz and rock, not so much for classical, where you want more overtones.
My brother had one of their bass bone mouthpieces, and I liked it quite a lot. Not sure what happened to it after he passed.

ttf_Full Pedal Trombonist · Fri Aug 25, 2017 10:04 pm

I've been curious about their bass mouthpieces. I've seen a few on eBay seldomly.

And if anyone has experience working with aluminum do you think it would be hard to find a mouthpiece maker to whom I could sent a big puck of aluminum to have a mouthpiece made?

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Fri Aug 25, 2017 11:02 pm

Aluminum is a funny material to machine.

It cuts easily, but it also deforms and thus the result of the machining operation may not match what you programmed in. You need to know how to adjust the machining to compensate.

You probably want to coat an aluminum mouthpiece with something. It tends to get little pillow like clumps of aluminum oxide which will feel uncomfortable against your lips. Most commonly aluminum is anodized which puts a hard coating on top.

ttf_Dukesboneman · Post by **ttf_Dukesboneman** » Sat Aug 26, 2017 9:29 am

I had a Jet tone studio D Bass Trombone Mouthpiece back in the late `70`s.
It was the oddist mouthpiece I`d ever run across.
Really thin rim that almost wanted to cut my chops. Straight down into the cup about 1/2 way down,
then it "V"ed into the throat opening. Very tight throat & back bore.
Very unfocused and bright sound and (for a Bass trombone) TERRIBLE low range.
But......
Great workmanship and fantastic plating (Mine was Gold Plated)

ttf_dershem · Post by **ttf_dershem** » Thu Aug 31, 2017 6:26 pm

Quote from: BGuttman on Aug 25, 2017, 11:02PMAluminum is a funny material to machine.

It cuts easily, but it also deforms and thus the result of the machining operation may not match what you programmed in. You need to know how to adjust the machining to compensate.

You probably want to coat an aluminum mouthpiece with something. It tends to get little pillow like clumps of aluminum oxide which will feel uncomfortable against your lips. Most commonly aluminum is anodized which puts a hard coating on top.

Yeah - the Jet-Tones I had/have that were aluminum were anodized - most in 'gold' color, some in light blue/silverish.

ttf_svenlarsson · Post by **ttf_svenlarsson** » Fri Sep 01, 2017 2:50 am

I am holding a Jet-Tone bass mouthpiece in my hand right now, a STUDIO MODEL A, brass and silverplated. Like the other pieces described here a thing rim leaning inward to the cup, the cup is going straight down to an inverted V. Very good for extremely high bass trombone part,

. Not very good for low parts if louder the mp.

ttf_Dukesboneman · Post by **ttf_Dukesboneman** » Thu Sep 28, 2017 6:36 am

Jet Tones like the Lindbergs and some other mouthpieces, worked incredibly for certain players and not for others.
I`ve played with people that got the most beautiful tone on a Jet tone and sounded awful on a Bach. and visa versa.

ttf_Matt K · Post by **ttf_Matt K** » Thu Sep 28, 2017 8:38 am

Quote from: Full Pedal Trombonist on Aug 25, 2017, 10:04PMI've been curious about their bass mouthpieces. I've seen a few on eBay seldomly.

And if anyone has experience working with aluminum do you think it would be hard to find a mouthpiece maker to whom I could sent a big puck of aluminum to have a mouthpiece made?

If you want something light, you might consider one of the plastics or titanium. They are very light. I recently posted some thoughts about hte titanium piece vs. a steel piece where I had threaded the rim and someone mentioned that it was similar to their perception of aluminum.

I still think weight is not a particularly important consideration in sound.... but I think it may have some influence on sound. And if you were looking for something brighter and could make a small rim work, I'd bet one of the really small Giddings pieces in titanium would be very similar to an aluminum jet tone.

ttf_Full Pedal Trombonist · Thu Sep 28, 2017 10:32 am

Quote from: Matt K on Sep 28, 2017, 08:38AM
If you want something light, you might consider one of the plastics or titanium. They are very light. I recently posted some thoughts about hte titanium piece vs. a steel piece where I had threaded the rim and someone mentioned that it was similar to their perception of aluminum.

I still think weight is not a particularly important consideration in sound.... but I think it may have some influence on sound. And if you were looking for something brighter and could make a small rim work, I'd bet one of the really small Giddings pieces in titanium would be very similar to an aluminum jet tone.

I actually really like plastic mouthpieces. I have a Kelly 1-1/2G that I sometimes use instead of a Bach with smaller bass stuff. I found a mouthpiece maker, Rubato ( the "b" is spelled with a flat ) that makes aluminum mouthpieces anodized in bright colors. But no 1-1/2G.

ttf_Pre59 · Post by **ttf_Pre59** » Thu Sep 28, 2017 11:33 am

Quote from: Matt K on Sep 28, 2017, 08:38AM

I still think weight is not a particularly important consideration in sound.... but I think it may have some influence on sound.

Er.. Care to elucidate?

ttf_Matt K · Post by **ttf_Matt K** » Thu Sep 28, 2017 2:00 pm

Quote from: Pre59 on Sep 28, 2017, 11:33AMEr.. Care to elucidate?

You can see my thoughts here:
http://tromboneforum.org/index.php/topic,102047.msg1212360.html#msg1212360

If weight is a consideration, it isn't entirely clear to me exactly what role it would play because the brass piece played 'in between' in terms of brightness when compared to the steel and titanium. Titanium was also the 'darkest' or at least the least brightest of the three. Of course, I didn't have a brass duplicate so its impossible to tell with any degree of certainty when comparing to brass.

That said, if the theory that heavier = darker or less bright or whatnot then the titanium would have played the brightest by far because it is very, very light. And the steel piece should have played 'darker'. The brass piece was in "the middle" of the two playing wise, but weighed the most.

Similarly, if you compare the idea about consistency between timbres, the brass also throws a wrench into the gears since it also was in the middle in terms of rate of change and redline.

YMMV!

ttf_Pre59 · Post by **ttf_Pre59** » Thu Sep 28, 2017 2:31 pm

My comments about DW Booster. http://tromboneforum.org/index.php/topic,101925.msg1211209/topicseen.html#msg1211209

I got the impression that a m/p with more mass reduced vibration on the slide. I certainly noticed that when using the Booster and feeling for vibrations around 2nd to 4th positions.

ttf_Matt K · Post by **ttf_Matt K** » Thu Sep 28, 2017 4:28 pm

I used to have one of those too. I was never able to tell the difference with it on vs. off in blindfolded tests but again YMMV!

ttf_davdud101 · Post by **ttf_davdud101** » Thu Sep 28, 2017 9:09 pm

These seem to pop up on eBay... what's the going rate for (I'm assuming they'd be) backstock/B-stock Jet-tones? I'd like to give one a try, just to get the chance to see what everyone's talking about

(Bear in mind I'm not huge on switching mouthpieces or horns, my latest doing has been from using a 6.5AL as a general piece to a Benge 12C which makes a nice lead piece.)

I remembered asking about this a while ago, or perhaps it was the Parduba double cup. Either way, they look like interesting specimens. Would definitely be worth a short trial run if not just for the experience, I'd say.

ttf_davdud101 · Post by **ttf_davdud101** » Thu Sep 28, 2017 9:09 pm

These seem to pop up on eBay... what's the going rate for (I'm assuming they'd be) backstock/B-stock Jet-tones? I'd like to give one a try, just to get the chance to see what everyone's talking about

(Bear in mind I'm not huge on switching mouthpieces or horns, my latest doing has been from using a 6.5AL as a general piece to a Benge 12C which makes a nice lead piece.)

I remembered asking about this a while ago, or perhaps it was the Parduba double cup. Either way, they look like interesting specimens. Would definitely be worth a short trial run if not just for the experience, I'd say.