Differences Holton 169 verses E185 and TR185

imsevimse
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Differences Holton 169 verses E185 and TR185

Post by imsevimse »

I know this has been discussed a lot, but unfortunately the knowledge that was shared is now buried in the old forum and that forum might never go up again. I'm interested in these facts and new generations of trombone players might also be interested, so please share if you know the answers πŸ˜€

1. I know the 169 is considered to be outstanding, but have also read a 185 can be as good and share everything but the name with the 169. How do I know if a 185 is a 169?

2. Another question is if there is a difference between the two 185 models E185 and TR185 and what the difference is?

3. What is the real difference between the three models?

My question is to those who have experience from playing them or have memories from the old forum and can share what they remember about these models. If you could answer any of the question above I would be grateful.

/Tom
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Re: Differences Holton 169 verses E185 and TR185

Post by ngrinder »

I’m no expert (paging J. Schatz!), but from viewing a 169 and 185 side to side, the 169’s throat is much larger. There’s a picture on Facebook I will try to dig up.

I own an E185 and have played a hand full of 185s, including an E185 that had the very same engraving and construction as my horn. Unfortunately the serial number on my horn is blocked by a trigger placement, but given how much variation was coming out of the factory, they could be very close in age.

To me, the earlier horns are more β€œorchestral.” The 169’s throat lends itself to broader attacks and gives a bit more uniform β€œBach” like sound, while the 185s I’ve played have a bit more malleable color and presence, as well as immediacy of attack. The most responsive 185 I’ve played is very late in the 185’s manufacturing life (1970-something), with a red brass bell that looks like it came off an early 180.
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Re: Differences Holton 169 verses E185 and TR185

Post by bellend »

Having owned and played both I would say the bells are identical, both copied from a Fuchs Conn like the Bach 50
Last edited by bellend on Sun Nov 11, 2018 5:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Differences Holton 169 verses E185 and TR185

Post by norbie2018 »

I know that Fuchs is German for Fox. Can anyone give a history on this model?
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Re: Differences Holton 169 verses E185 and TR185

Post by Tbarh »

Ngrinder , how much of a difference are we talking about in bell throatsizes ? I could not see any the last time i was in a room with these three models .. Maybe i did not look close enough . :idk:

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Re: Differences Holton 169 verses E185 and TR185

Post by bellend »

Originally knows as a "Fuchs" model, this single valve bass trombone was one of the first American made large bore and large bell bass trombones and featured tuning in the slide, which was very popular during the day. Designed with Robert Fuchs of the Chicago Grand Opera around 1915, it was marketed as the pinnacle of bass trombone development at the time.
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Re: Differences Holton 169 verses E185 and TR185

Post by norbie2018 »

bellend wrote: ↑Sun Nov 11, 2018 4:29 am Originally knows as a "Fuchs" model, this single valve bass trombone was one of the first American made large bore and large bell bass trombones and featured tuning in the slide, which was very popular during the day. Designed with Robert Fuchs of the Chicago Grand Opera around 1915, it was marketed as the pinnacle of bass trombone development at the time.
Is it known to be that spectacular?
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Re: Differences Holton 169 verses E185 and TR185

Post by Burgerbob »

norbie2018 wrote: ↑Sun Nov 11, 2018 8:43 am
bellend wrote: ↑Sun Nov 11, 2018 4:29 am Originally knows as a "Fuchs" model, this single valve bass trombone was one of the first American made large bore and large bell bass trombones and featured tuning in the slide, which was very popular during the day. Designed with Robert Fuchs of the Chicago Grand Opera around 1915, it was marketed as the pinnacle of bass trombone development at the time.
Is it known to be that spectacular?
Having played one, yes.
Aidan Ritchie, LA area player and teacher
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Re: Differences Holton 169 verses E185 and TR185

Post by ngrinder »

Holtons.jpg
Here's the picture I was talking about. The horn on the left is a 185 from the 70s, I believe, and on the right is a 169 (both D valve sections were modified by Terry Pierce).

This is actually the only 169 that I have played, and the throat is indeed much wider than my horn and the other 185s I have tried. It's very possible that it could be a one off or a fluke, but I always thought 169ss had different throats than later Holton basses - of course I could be mistaken.
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Re: Differences Holton 169 verses E185 and TR185

Post by blast »

Look at your picture and study the flare width... 185's were 9 1/2" or 10" in diameter whilst almost all 169's were 9 3/8" diameter, which makes the 169 look like a more open bell throat.
I have owned many 185's and 169's. 169 Holtons vary a lot.... thick bells and thin bells, different valve bores.... you have take each one as it comes. 185's are more consistent, have 9 1/2" or 10" bells that have a harder finish and generally have a slightly more commercial feel.
I have two 169's..... and a Conn Fuchs 70H.... and yes, the Fuchs is a bit special, and has a 9 3/8" bell.

Chris
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Re: Differences Holton 169 verses E185 and TR185

Post by imsevimse »

I now have two 9 1/2" bell TR185. Both from 1968 and both are great. One has the optional second valve in Eb and the original almost impossible thumb-setup to control both valves. What were they thinking? The other has a modernized D-valve which is manovered by the middle finger. Much more useful. Both trombones are very open and responsive.
One of my dream trombones is a 169. At least to give one a try to know the difference would be nice.

/Tom
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Re: Differences Holton 169 verses E185 and TR185

Post by eatanick »

Unfortunately, I have no experience with 169s or E-185s, but I have owned two TR-185s and another TR-185 bell section (it was really beaten up and now has independent Rotaxes).

One TR-185 and the extra bell are both from 1966 (only three apart in serial number), have 9 1/2 inch bells, single radius tuning slides and fit an original slot in valve (acquired separately to all three horns). The other TR-185 I owned was from the early/mid seventies I think, had a 10 inch bell, dual radius tuning slide and the slot in valve wouldn't fit properly (the slot in valve body would hit the main tuning slide before you could push it in far enough to be in tune).

I found the '66 bell to be maybe a little more dense, warm and refined sounding when compared to the '70s bell, but the '70s bell was a bit snappier feeling. I couldn't feel or hear a difference between tuning slides. The playing slides were very different, though, with the '66 slide feeling much, much better to play. I assumed it was a bad leadpipe, but the action wasn't great so I didn't even look into getting it removed.

Anecdotally, I think I remember reading about and even seeing a photo on TTF of one E-185 that had another small oversleeve on an outer slide slide tube. I remember it looking a bit like a ferrule randomly placed part way down the slide, but I could be making that sleeve thing up entirely.
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Re: Differences Holton 169 verses E185 and TR185

Post by imsevimse »

blast wrote: ↑Sun Nov 11, 2018 2:07 pm Look at your picture and study the flare width... 185's were 9 1/2" or 10" in diameter whilst almost all 169's were 9 3/8" diameter, which makes the 169 look like a more open bell throat.
I have owned many 185's and 169's. 169 Holtons vary a lot.... thick bells and thin bells, different valve bores.... you have take each one as it comes. 185's are more consistent, have 9 1/2" or 10" bells that have a harder finish and generally have a slightly more commercial feel.
I have two 169's..... and a Conn Fuchs 70H.... and yes, the Fuchs is a bit special, and has a 9 3/8" bell.

Chris
Hi Chris!

Soon I can answer this question myself 😎

Okay, I stumbled over a Holton 169 from 1964 that I bought today. When I compare to one of my TR185 from 1968 they look about the same with the difference that the TR185 has the optional second valve in D.
When I compare bells the 169 is not 9 3/8". Both bells are 9 1/2".

Both are great trombones. I feel very fortunate to have them. If I should try to say something about the difference: Maybe the TR185 has a little "wider" sound. It "expands" more. The 169 has a more compact sound. Both horns resonate very well.

/Tom
Last edited by imsevimse on Fri Nov 30, 2018 8:10 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Differences Holton 169 verses E185 and TR185

Post by blast »

imsevimse wrote: ↑Thu Nov 29, 2018 3:29 pm
blast wrote: ↑Sun Nov 11, 2018 2:07 pm Look at your picture and study the flare width... 185's were 9 1/2" or 10" in diameter whilst almost all 169's were 9 3/8" diameter, which makes the 169 look like a more open bell throat.
I have owned many 185's and 169's. 169 Holtons vary a lot.... thick bells and thin bells, different valve bores.... you have take each one as it comes. 185's are more consistent, have 9 1/2" or 10" bells that have a harder finish and generally have a slightly more commercial feel.
I have two 169's..... and a Conn Fuchs 70H.... and yes, the Fuchs is a bit special, and has a 9 3/8" bell.

Chris
Hi Chris!

Soon I can answer this question myself 😎

Okay, I stumbled over a Holton 169 from 1964 that I bought today. When I compare to one of my TR185 from 1968 they look abiut the same with the difference that the TR185 has the optional second valve in D.
When I compare bells the 169 is not 9 3/8". Both bells are 9 1/2".

Both are great trombones. I feel very fortunate to have them. If I should try to say something about the difference: Maybe the TR185 has a little "wideer" sound. It "expands" more. The 169 has a more compact sound. Both horns resonate very well.

/Tom
Congrats Tom ! I did say that "almost" all 169's had 9 3/8" bells.... one of the two I have is a 9 1/2", so it does happen. You should find the throats to be the same.

Chris
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Re: Differences Holton 169 verses E185 and TR185

Post by Bonephilly »

Slightly off topic...

I put a 183 bell on my 180. Wow! Huge improvement. For my tastes the 180 10” bell is too big and spread out. The 9” 183 bell is much much better and fits more of my bass trombone needs. In general, I wouldnt be scared away from a 9” bass bell. It’s more to the smaller bass side than a bigger tenor if that makes sense.
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Re: Differences Holton 169 verses E185 and TR185

Post by blast »

Bonephilly wrote: ↑Fri Nov 30, 2018 10:51 am Slightly off topic...

I put a 183 bell on my 180. Wow! Huge improvement. For my tastes the 180 10” bell is too big and spread out. The 9” 183 bell is much much better and fits more of my bass trombone needs. In general, I wouldnt be scared away from a 9” bass bell. It’s more to the smaller bass side than a bigger tenor if that makes sense.
I know what you mean.... I inherited a 9" Rath ns bell and it is so nice to play. Incidentally, I have an early 183 with a 9 1/2" bell.

Chris
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Re: Differences Holton 169 verses E185 and TR185

Post by imsevimse »

This evening I put four Holton basses up to a test.
It is one 169 with 9 1/2" bell from 1964, two TR185 with 9 1/2" bell from 1968 and one TR183 with 9" bell from 1974.

I put them on four stands and switched repeatedly between them. First one comment about the trigger on the TR183 that has two plastic details in the trigger system. In each end of the brace between the rotor and the trigger it has a plastic device to hold the parts. One has cracked but it works anyway. The older Holtons have slight different details that do the same thing but they are in metal, much better.

The test is basically to play scales and arpeggios and some songs on all bones to see if I could come to some conclusions about the Holton sound - what that is -
and compare this to other basses and also to find differences between the Holton models. The other trombones I used was a couple of Conns (73h, 62h) Yamahas (321,322) a Martin bass and an Olds P24G.

My conclution is there is definitely a feel that unites all the Holtons. All have a broad sound, a sound that can expand more compared to any of the other models. I can feel that the Conns "lock in" to a sound more even though they have lots of colors and can be altered. I felt all Holtons to be "wavy" in the sound. I'm not sure if that term exists and if it can be understood, but what I mean by that is the playing characteristics helps me to broaden and spread the sound, so "wavy" is a positive word in my book :wink: . The Yamahas (321, 322) are more close to the Holton sound than to the Conn sound in soft nuances. The Martin is a .535 bass which means it is very tenor like in this test. The Olds P24-G has a full bodied fundamental with lots of high frequency above. In this test I would place the Holton sound between the Conns and the Olds sound I would place the Yamaha very close to the Holtons when played soft, but the sound in the Yamaha changes more when pushed. Not the same with the Holtons. They are full bodied and "wavy" in all nuances.

If I compare the Holtons to each other I find one of the TR185 to be more "mellow" and the other to have more high freq. It could be because one has the lacquer removed. The one without lacquer is the more mellow one The 169 is more close to the one with lacquer but it is a little less "wavy" or more "compact" and distinct if you prefer, but still it has a broad sound. The TR183 has a 9" bell. It is not as broad as the other Holtons. It is "wavy" but not as big in the sound and not as distinct as the 169. All the Holtons have great fake notes and notes in all registers pop out with ease. Easier low register than the Conns. I would say the TR185 and 169 are pretty close and it is only small things in character that diverse. I could due with a TR185 because it is a very good bass with a great sound. The two TR185 I have here are close in my opinion. I need to try both in a big band before I decide what to think.

I don't know if this makes sense to others who have not done similar tests. And they who have might disagree. Maybe you come to other conclusions. We are different so you probably will not agree to my test results, it would be strange if you did. I'm interested to hear your opinion.

/Tom
Last edited by imsevimse on Tue Dec 04, 2018 2:57 pm, edited 9 times in total.
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Re: Differences Holton 169 verses E185 and TR185

Post by sf105 »

imsevimse wrote: ↑Sat Dec 01, 2018 3:14 pm This evening I put four Holton basses up to a test.
It is one 169 with 9 1/2" bell from 1964, two TR185 with 9 1/2" bell from 1968 and one TR183 with 9" bell from 1974.

The test is basically to play scales and arpeggios and some songs on all bones to see if I could come to some conclusions about the Holton sound - what that is -
and compare this to other basses and also to find differences between the Holton models. The other trombones I used was a couple of Conns (73h, 62h) Yamahas (321,322) a Martin bass and an Olds P24G.
[...]
I'm struggling to explain to my wife why I need all the trombones that I have, but I'm way behind you. What's your secret :wink:

S
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Re: Differences Holton 169 verses E185 and TR185

Post by imsevimse »

sf105 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 04, 2018 7:46 am I'm struggling to explain to my wife why I need all the trombones that I have, but I'm way behind you. What's your secret :wink:

S
Me and my trombones don't need no wife :-)

More testing...
Yesterday I took the 169 to a big band. I got a lot of positive comments on my sound from the other bone-players and the leader who is a trombone player said "that's the sound I want from a bass trombone". Of course I took that to my heart. I did not tell them what instrument I had until afterwords.

This evening I took the horn to another band, strengthened by yesterdays comments :pant: The songs we played had a few C's and B's, and they worked all right. No complaints anyway. I do know the fake-notes fairly well and I use them on every C and B if they are short. It's the sustained C's and B's in fortissimo that worries. The gig is Saturday.

/Tom
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Re: Differences Holton 169 verses E185 and TR185

Post by HawaiiTromboneGuy »

Picked up a TR185 with the second rotor this morning and am hoping the shipping time won’t be too long as it’s coming international. Excited to receive the horn as I’ve never played a Holton bass before.
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Re: Differences Holton 169 verses E185 and TR185

Post by mrdeacon »

HawaiiTromboneGuy wrote: ↑Mon Aug 24, 2020 4:14 pm Picked up a TR185 with the second rotor this morning and am hoping the shipping time won’t be too long as it’s coming international. Excited to receive the horn as I’ve never played a Holton bass before.
You get all the toys! I think you'll like it.
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Re: Differences Holton 169 verses E185 and TR185

Post by bassboneman69 »

I have often wondered about the unique idiosyncrasies between the different 169’s...let alone the 185’s!
I find it interesting no one has mentioned the hand slide materials and moreover the leadpipe.
I am soooo hoping Mr. Schatz will chime in as well.
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Re: Differences Holton 169 verses E185 and TR185

Post by WGWTR180 »

imsevimse wrote: ↑Tue Dec 04, 2018 8:55 am
sf105 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 04, 2018 7:46 am I'm struggling to explain to my wife why I need all the trombones that I have, but I'm way behind you. What's your secret :wink:

S
Me and my trombones don't need no wife :-)

More testing...
Yesterday I took the 169 to a big band. I got a lot of positive comments on my sound from the other bone-players and the leader who is a trombone player said "that's the sound I want from a bass trombone". Of course I took that to my heart. I did not tell them what instrument I had until afterwords.

This evening I took the horn to another band, strengthened by yesterdays comments :pant: The songs we played had a few C's and B's, and they worked all right. No complaints anyway. I do know the fake-notes fairly well and I use them on every C and B if they are short. It's the sustained C's and B's in fortissimo that worries. The gig is Saturday.

/Tom
If you're a bass trombonist there are no "fake note" low Bs and Cs. :)
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Re: Differences Holton 169 verses E185 and TR185

Post by Basbasun »

WGWTR180 wrote: ↑Tue Aug 25, 2020 6:08 am If you're a bass trombonist there are no "fake note" low Bs and Cs. :)
What? :horror:
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Re: Differences Holton 169 verses E185 and TR185

Post by imsevimse »

WGWTR180 wrote: ↑Tue Aug 25, 2020 6:08 am If you're a bass trombonist there are no "fake note" low Bs and Cs. :)
I'm not sure I follow you here. I guess you mean if you are a real bass trombone player you need two valves. I could not disagree more. The factitious notes are my buddies :good:

/Tom
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Re: Differences Holton 169 verses E185 and TR185

Post by RConrad »

HawaiiTromboneGuy wrote: ↑Mon Aug 24, 2020 4:14 pm Picked up a TR185 with the second rotor this morning and am hoping the shipping time won’t be too long as it’s coming international. Excited to receive the horn as I’ve never played a Holton bass before.
I'm hoping one day in the future I can find me a TR185 and my wife won't kick me out for getting another trombone. Would love to see some pictures and hear your thoughts on the one you picked up once you get some time with it!
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Re: Differences Holton 169 verses E185 and TR185

Post by HawaiiTromboneGuy »

RConrad wrote: ↑Tue Aug 25, 2020 12:10 pm
HawaiiTromboneGuy wrote: ↑Mon Aug 24, 2020 4:14 pm Picked up a TR185 with the second rotor this morning and am hoping the shipping time won’t be too long as it’s coming international. Excited to receive the horn as I’ve never played a Holton bass before.
I'm hoping one day in the future I can find me a TR185 and my wife won't kick me out for getting another trombone. Would love to see some pictures and hear your thoughts on the one you picked up once you get some time with it!
I’ll definitely get some photos up once the horn arrives!
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Re: Differences Holton 169 verses E185 and TR185

Post by WGWTR180 »

imsevimse wrote: ↑Tue Aug 25, 2020 10:23 am
WGWTR180 wrote: ↑Tue Aug 25, 2020 6:08 am If you're a bass trombonist there are no "fake note" low Bs and Cs. :)
I'm not sure I follow you here. I guess you mean if you are a real bass trombone player you need two valves. I could not disagree more. The factitious notes are my buddies :good:

/Tom
Uh, No that's not what I meant. What "fake notes" are you talking about. Can't you play low B and Low C on a single valve as well as a double valve. Please don't put words in my mouth.
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Re: Differences Holton 169 verses E185 and TR185

Post by WGWTR180 »

Basbasun wrote: ↑Tue Aug 25, 2020 8:12 am
WGWTR180 wrote: ↑Tue Aug 25, 2020 6:08 am If you're a bass trombonist there are no "fake note" low Bs and Cs. :)
What? :horror:
You as well. You play "fake notes" on the bass trombone? What are your fake notes?
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Re: Differences Holton 169 verses E185 and TR185

Post by BGuttman »

I think they are referring to "falset tones".

Much bass trombone literature does not go below D or C which should be playable on a single valve instrument (provided the slide is suitably long).

Sometimes there is plenty of time to pull to E, but sometimes not. Having a good falset B or C can be a lifesaver when you don't want to tote a full double to the gig.
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Re: Differences Holton 169 verses E185 and TR185

Post by imsevimse »

WGWTR180 wrote: ↑Tue Aug 25, 2020 1:14 pm
imsevimse wrote: ↑Tue Aug 25, 2020 10:23 am

I'm not sure I follow you here. I guess you mean if you are a real bass trombone player you need two valves. I could not disagree more. The factitious notes are my buddies :good:

/Tom
Uh, No that's not what I meant. What "fake notes" are you talking about. Can't you play low B and Low C on a single valve as well as a double valve. Please don't put words in my mouth.
I did not mean to put words into your mouth I'm trying to understand what you mean. I understand now THAT was not what you meant. Problem is I still don't know exactly what you mean and maybe it is a barrier in language.

As you probably can imagine it has it limitations to not communicate in ones native language. To not make things worse I want to tell you that my comment is not meant to be snarky. I'm prepared to explain better if I'm asked to do that.

I now guess you think "fake notes" is just a silly name for them. Is that it? I don't mean to put words into your mouth but I'm guessing here and I'm trying to explain. :good:

Is it more clear if I just call them factitious notes?
In Swedish language we sometimes refer to them as "fake notes". I guess that is a silly name and we should always call them factitious notes or falsettos or false tones and never suggest they are fake because it is nothing fake about them. It is just another skill. Haven't thought much about that until now. You are right it is nothing fake about them.

/Tom
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Re: Differences Holton 169 verses E185 and TR185

Post by Bach5G »

Eb down to B on a straight horn; B, maybe C, on single trigger. Fake notes. As in, β€œHow did Watrous play that low D?” He faked it.
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Re: Differences Holton 169 verses E185 and TR185

Post by WGWTR180 »

Bach5G wrote: ↑Tue Aug 25, 2020 2:54 pm Eb down to B on a straight horn; B, maybe C, on single trigger. Fake notes. As in, β€œHow did Watrous play that low D?” He faked it.

Right! on a Bach 16M!!! Not a bass trombone.
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Re: Differences Holton 169 verses E185 and TR185

Post by imsevimse »

WGWTR180 wrote: ↑Tue Aug 25, 2020 3:53 pm
Bach5G wrote: ↑Tue Aug 25, 2020 2:54 pm Eb down to B on a straight horn; B, maybe C, on single trigger. Fake notes. As in, β€œHow did Watrous play that low D?” He faked it.
Right! on a Bach 16M!!! Not a bass trombone.

I don't want to hijack this thread, but here is an example of false notes and "fake notes" on a single valved bass. There are plenty of threads at this forum about this. You can search. These notes exists on the bass trombone too both on the straight horn and on the valve. They can be a bless if learned.

/Tom

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Re: Differences Holton 169 verses E185 and TR185

Post by Posaunus »

Perhaps WGWTR180 overlooks that some bass trombones have only a single valve? : :horror:

Or is a single valve bass trombone not a "real" bass trombone? :idk:
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Re: Differences Holton 169 verses E185 and TR185

Post by droffilcal »

Damn good! I love it -- I too am fascinated by the false tones on both tenors and basses. I'm good at them, but not THAT good, wow!

Jeff Reynolds (ret. LA Phil bass tbn) believed that working on false tones was really beneficial to playing the notes with the valves; I remember some hand-written exercises where you play valve notes and false tones one after the other and try to make them sound exactly the same. So, low B w/ two valves, low B with one valve in 7th, low B with one valve in flat 3rd, low B in flat 6th with no valve. It's very satisfying to lock those notes in with a good sound!
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Re: Differences Holton 169 verses E185 and TR185

Post by mrdeacon »

WGWTR180 wrote: ↑Tue Aug 25, 2020 3:53 pm
Bach5G wrote: ↑Tue Aug 25, 2020 2:54 pm Eb down to B on a straight horn; B, maybe C, on single trigger. Fake notes. As in, β€œHow did Watrous play that low D?” He faked it.

Right! on a Bach 16M!!! Not a bass trombone.
Wait are you suggesting that false tones aren't possible on bass trombone? Or at least what most people associate as false tones on bass trombone are actually something else? I assumed your first post that started all this was a joke but now I'm not sure...

In Los Angeles Flase notes and Fake notes are the same thing so maybe I'm missing something here.
Rath R1 2000s, Elliott XT
Bach 42 1974, Elliott XT
Holton 169 1965, Elliott LB
Minick Bass Trombone 1980s, Elliott LB
Thrawn22
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Re: Differences Holton 169 verses E185 and TR185

Post by Thrawn22 »

False tones, fake tones, fake notes, false notes are all the same thing correct? They're apart of my routine on tenor and bass. They help in so many ways. I practice false low B and C on my 72H and alternate between trigger notes below staff and false tones.

Puts hair in your chest it does.
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Basbasun
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Re: Differences Holton 169 verses E185 and TR185

Post by Basbasun »

Ha the thread is hijaked! False tones (falsettstimme in 1618 Sytagma Musikum) has ben used for ages. Many players around the world use them. They are god for doubble bone players too. The low C and B work much better if you practise the fake tones.
Basbasun
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Re: Differences Holton 169 verses E185 and TR185

Post by Basbasun »

WGWTR180 wrote: ↑Tue Aug 25, 2020 1:15 pm
Basbasun wrote: ↑Tue Aug 25, 2020 8:12 am

What? :horror:
You as well. You play "fake notes" on the bass trombone? What are your fake notes?



Low Gb/#F on first and following chrimaticly down to low C on 7.

With the F atachment: Low Db/C# on first and following down to low Ab/#G on 6 (the placement as a much lowered tenor 7) if you can reach it.

So, low C on V2, low B onV3.

Those positions has pretty good resonance, there another method that are easier to remember (!) that uses the positions as one octave up, maybe god for practising but don resonate as good. Many trumpeters practise on those.

Sorry about this.
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Re: Differences Holton 169 verses E185 and TR185

Post by WGWTR180 »

mrdeacon wrote: ↑Tue Aug 25, 2020 5:47 pm
WGWTR180 wrote: ↑Tue Aug 25, 2020 3:53 pm


Right! on a Bach 16M!!! Not a bass trombone.
Wait are you suggesting that false tones aren't possible on bass trombone? Or at least what most people associate as false tones on bass trombone are actually something else? I assumed your first post that started all this was a joke but now I'm not sure...

In Los Angeles Flase notes and Fake notes are the same thing so maybe I'm missing something here.
No I'm not. I'm done with this. You guys go ahead and practice your whatever tones on the bass trombone.
Have fun!
WGWTR180
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Re: Differences Holton 169 verses E185 and TR185

Post by WGWTR180 »

Posaunus wrote: ↑Tue Aug 25, 2020 5:07 pm Perhaps WGWTR180 overlooks that some bass trombones have only a single valve? : :horror:

Or is a single valve bass trombone not a "real" bass trombone? :idk:
What a load of BS.
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Re: Differences Holton 169 verses E185 and TR185

Post by Posaunus »

WGWTR180 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 26, 2020 5:53 am
Posaunus wrote: ↑Tue Aug 25, 2020 5:07 pm Perhaps WGWTR180 overlooks that some bass trombones have only a single valve? : :horror:

Or is a single valve bass trombone not a "real" bass trombone? :idk:
What a load of BS.
It may sound like BS to Mr WGWTR, but I was genuinely confused by his comments and aggressive reactions to what seemed to me helpful explanations of "false tones." I am not an academically trained trombonist, and had really never heard of or been taught false tones, so I was trying to figure out WGWTR's rants. I thought perhaps he was indicating that some of the notes produced (the hard way) by false tones could be better played (the easy way) on a bass trombone by using the second valve. My fault for not understanding his point, and I apologize for that, but I object to the characterization as "BS."

Apparently I'm not the only one who was confused by WGWTR's assertions. Perhaps if he wants to make his point and educate all of us amateurs, he could take a more congenial and collegial approach to his commentary. :idk:
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Re: Differences Holton 169 verses E185 and TR185

Post by WGWTR180 »

Posaunus wrote: ↑Wed Aug 26, 2020 9:28 am
WGWTR180 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 26, 2020 5:53 am
What a load of BS.
It may sound like BS to Mr WGWTR, but I was genuinely confused by his comments and aggressive reactions to what seemed to me helpful explanations of "false tones." I am not an academically trained trombonist, and had really never heard of or been taught false tones, so I was trying to figure out WGWTR's rants. I thought perhaps he was indicating that some of the notes produced (the hard way) by false tones could be better played (the easy way) on a bass trombone by using the second valve. My fault for not understanding his point, and I apologize for that, but I object to the characterization as "BS."

Apparently I'm not the only one who was confused by WGWTR's assertions. Perhaps if he wants to make his point and educate all of us amateurs, he could take a more congenial and collegial approach to his commentary. :idk:
Insinuating that I don't think that a single valve bass trombone is a real bass trombone is insulting and BS. I've overlooked the fact that there are single valve bass trombones?? Nah that's not aggressive or insulting at all. I actually love the sound I get on some single valve basses but for my work I need a double valve bass trombone for 85% of my work. Rants?? Aggressive? LOL! Rants area bit longer than a few sentences but I'll leave that at that. So if you want to discuss then engage me. If you want to insult, which is what you did, then leave that for someone else.
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Re: Differences Holton 169 verses E185 and TR185

Post by imsevimse »

WGWTR180 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 26, 2020 9:46 am
Posaunus wrote: ↑Wed Aug 26, 2020 9:28 am

It may sound like BS to Mr WGWTR, but I was genuinely confused by his comments and aggressive reactions to what seemed to me helpful explanations of "false tones." I am not an academically trained trombonist, and had really never heard of or been taught false tones, so I was trying to figure out WGWTR's rants. I thought perhaps he was indicating that some of the notes produced (the hard way) by false tones could be better played (the easy way) on a bass trombone by using the second valve. My fault for not understanding his point, and I apologize for that, but I object to the characterization as "BS."

Apparently I'm not the only one who was confused by WGWTR's assertions. Perhaps if he wants to make his point and educate all of us amateurs, he could take a more congenial and collegial approach to his commentary. :idk:
Insinuating that I don't think that a single valve bass trombone is a real bass trombone is insulting and BS. I've overlooked the fact that there are single valve bass trombones?? Nah that's not aggressive or insulting at all. I actually love the sound I get on some single valve basses but for my work I need a double valve bass trombone for 85% of my work. Rants?? Aggressive? LOL! Rants area bit longer than a few sentences but I'll leave that at that. So if you want to discuss then engage me. If you want to insult, which is what you did, then leave that for someone else.
I'm sorry if you felt also insulted when I first did not understand your comment. I actually thought you made a joke, but I wasn't sure. As I said I had difficulties to follow.

Since my first language is not English I know I can not pick up nuances in language. Things that can be difficult to understand is subtle insinuations, sarcasm and naturally jokes. I think it is sad we do not know much from the background from the ones we discuss with. It would be easier to discuss if we knew the context. At this site there are all types of people; students, amateurs, retired pros, teachers and a few professionals. I always try to interpret every post as positive as I can because I'm here to share and to learn not to fight. I mean; There are plenty of opportunities where I can choose to be insulted but I don't.

All professional tromboneplayers I know over here knows about the factitious notes. Even the ones who do not use them. I assumed the only professional basstrombone players who do not know about them or bother to learn them must use a double trigger or switch to a double trigger when those patterns show up. On a single there are sometimes patterns that are very difficult if you can't use them. At least that is true when I'm on the single. One example to show that is that pattern I posted. I do not see a need to use the factitious notes on a double even though I can see it would reduce trigger work if I do not need to switch between triggers, but that must be a very rare occasion. When I play a double I do not use the factitious notes because I don't have to.

I hope this discussion had some good points.

/Tom
Last edited by imsevimse on Wed Aug 26, 2020 11:19 am, edited 4 times in total.
JoeStanko
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Re: Differences Holton 169 verses E185 and TR185

Post by JoeStanko »

Speaking of low D's..starting at 5:40 -

Regarding the topic - some 185's have a 10" bell and feel more like a 180. I prefer my 169's to the 185 but the 169 was also variable - some have a more Bach-like quality.

Joe
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Re: Differences Holton 169 verses E185 and TR185

Post by imsevimse »

imsevimse wrote: ↑Tue Aug 25, 2020 4:22 pm I don't want to hijack this thread ....
I just realise it is my thread :wink: . I started this thread 2018 it is an old old one. I forgive.

Now we can return to subject


The two TR185 I have are from 1968 and they are both 9 1/2". Was the size of bell a special order or was it a change they did when they made the TR180? I realise I do not even know what order they came.

It seams logical the TR180 was made before the TR185 because of the lower model number but I'm not sure with Holtons. Mike Suter had written a lot about the Holtons on the old forum. I hate we lost all that :x


/Tom
Last edited by imsevimse on Wed Aug 26, 2020 2:11 pm, edited 3 times in total.
WGWTR180
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Re: Differences Holton 169 verses E185 and TR185

Post by WGWTR180 »

Every 185, E185, and 169 are different from each other. Even the older 180s are each different. Holtons were consistently inconsistent. I have 3 180s sitting in my house and the playing slides aren't exactly interchangeable. Bell weights can vary on all of the horns the OP mentioned and even playing slides are different weights while using the same materials. Frustrating on one hand as their playing consistencies are also different. All I know is once you've found one that's good you'll know!!! I love mine.
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Re: Differences Holton 169 verses E185 and TR185

Post by btone »

"Every 185, E185, and 169 are different from each other. Even the older 180s are each different. Holtons were consistently inconsistent."
Exactly right. Tuning slides that don't interchange, some bells are heavy, some super light. Variations in slide tenons/ receivers make slide interchangeability not a sure thing. Some great horns made, though. As to chronological order- I remember from Trombone Forum threads- 169 made early? to mid 60's, a more orchestral horn. 185E was made next, and perhaps only briefly. These were reportedly much like the 169 in some cases. The TR185 followed by 1966 or 7?- it looked much the same but was ostensibly less orchestral in nature. Some of these had a 9.5 inch bell, some 10". About the same time dependent valve instruments began to be made which evolved into the 180. I have experience with a 9.5" 180, my first bass, and I still own a good condition TR185 that plays very well, and a rescue 169, a victim of mistreatment that sounds and plays great, against all odds. It must have originally been really incredible, because it is still great.
Last edited by btone on Thu Aug 27, 2020 10:09 am, edited 2 times in total.
Thrawn22
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Re: Differences Holton 169 verses E185 and TR185

Post by Thrawn22 »

I'm glad i didn't get into Holtons.
6H (K series)
6H (early 60s)
4H/5H custom bell
78H ('53)
78H (K series)
78H/36BG /2547 slide
8H
88HN
71H (dependant valves)
72H
35H alto (K series)
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