What is rose brass?

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norbie2018
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What is rose brass?

Post by norbie2018 » Sun Apr 15, 2018 10:59 am

I get different results from visiting different sites. Is it just another name for gold brass or for red brass, or is it something entirely different?

Man, do I miss the old TTF when it comes to a question like this!
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BGuttman
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Re: What is rose brass?

Post by BGuttman » Sun Apr 15, 2018 11:11 am

I would have answered it there and I'll answer it here:

There is a sort of interchangeability between gold brass and rose brass.

Yellow brass is 70% copper 30% zinc.
Red brass is 90% copper and 10% zinc.
Coprion is electroformed (electroplated thick) pure copper.

In between Yellow Brass and Red Brass is considered gold or rose brass. Sometimes there is a physical difference between them with 85/15 being rose and 80/20 being gold. Other times either metal is called by either name.
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JohnL
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Re: What is rose brass?

Post by JohnL » Sun Apr 15, 2018 11:27 am

There is no "official" definition of rose brass, so you'll find it applied to 90/10 and 85/15 alloys somewhat indiscriminately.

This might be a sticky-worthy topic...
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Matt K
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Re: What is rose brass?

Post by Matt K » Sun Apr 15, 2018 11:51 am

I concur about a sticky for the subject. The TTF had a lot of information but it was heavily fragmented. Let me make another topic that I can use as a sticky and update with newer information.
norbie2018
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Re: What is rose brass?

Post by norbie2018 » Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:02 pm

So, there may be a difference between the gold brass off my xeno and rose brass of my Holton. They just didn't look quite the same; I wondered if it was the lacquer changing color on the nearly 50 year old Holton.
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BGuttman
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Re: What is rose brass?

Post by BGuttman » Mon Apr 16, 2018 8:30 pm

The way to tell is to scan with X-Ray Fluorescence. You could have 85/15 or 80/20. The scan could tell. I used to be able to do that when I worked in the lab.
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blast
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Re: What is rose brass?

Post by blast » Tue Apr 17, 2018 1:29 am

80/20 looks yellow in it's raw state.

Chris
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Inspector71
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Re: What is rose brass?

Post by Inspector71 » Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:04 am

The 'general" numbers: (many makers have their own recipe)

yellow brass 70/30
gold brass 80/20
Rose brass 85/15
Red brass 90/10
Last edited by Inspector71 on Wed Apr 18, 2018 10:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What is rose brass?

Post by blast » Tue Apr 17, 2018 2:19 pm

Inspector71 wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:04 am
The 'general" numbers: (many makers have their own recipe)

yellow brass 70/30
gold brass 75/25
Rose brass 80/20
Red brass 90/10
Have you used 80/20 Mike ? It's quite a rare alloy over here.

Chris
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Inspector71
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Re: What is rose brass?

Post by Inspector71 » Wed Apr 18, 2018 4:46 am


Have you used 80/20 Mike ? It's quite a rare alloy over here.

Chris
We have used rose with some of the M/K leadpipes but with not with bells or tubing...yet

<Edit by BG: Fixed Quote>
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Matt K
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Re: What is rose brass?

Post by Matt K » Wed Apr 18, 2018 6:32 am

Thanks Michael! I'll be updating our matrix in the other thread with the information. :good:
Mikebmiller
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Re: What is rose brass?

Post by Mikebmiller » Wed Apr 18, 2018 7:25 am

Kinda like the difference in ground chuck and ground round. It all tastes good when you put it on a grill.
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Inspector71
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Re: What is rose brass?

Post by Inspector71 » Wed Apr 18, 2018 10:41 am

I tweeked the above numbers a bit after I got some more coffee onboard. Should have been 80/20 for gold and 85/15 for rose.
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JohnL
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Re: What is rose brass?

Post by JohnL » Wed Apr 18, 2018 10:48 am

Mikebmiller wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 7:25 am
Kinda like the difference in ground chuck and ground round. It all tastes good when you put it on a grill.
An excellent simile, given that how the meat is prepared is at least as important as what part of the cow it came from.
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Re: What is rose brass?

Post by blast » Wed Apr 18, 2018 11:30 am

Inspector71 wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 10:41 am
I tweeked the above numbers a bit after I got some more coffee onboard. Should have been 80/20 for gold and 85/15 for rose.
Yes, I agree with that....except that gold is not what Bach call gold. Mick Rath got hold of a sheet of 80/20 around 2003 and made some bells from it. They came out a sort of darker yellow. I think some of the older Kings have that sort of metal. My 1934 Conn 70H has a bell and J bend that is darker than the valve tube.... almost yellowy pink....one of the Thein brothers looked at it and said something about it being a commonly used alloy before WW2 and talked around a 82/18 as a mix. I cannot remember exactly what he said but it was only slightly higher copper content than 80/20.
I expect different foundries will produce slightly different products under the same headline formula.... that's just the way of things.

Chris
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Neo Bri
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Re: What is rose brass?

Post by Neo Bri » Wed Apr 18, 2018 11:42 am

JohnL wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 10:48 am
Mikebmiller wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 7:25 am
Kinda like the difference in ground chuck and ground round. It all tastes good when you put it on a grill.
An excellent simile, given that how the meat is prepared is at least as important as what part of the cow it came from.
But I keep wondering how much the material really matters...
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JohnL
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Re: What is rose brass?

Post by JohnL » Wed Apr 18, 2018 2:04 pm

Neo Bri wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 11:42 am
But I keep wondering how much the material really matters...
Depends on how close to identical the manufacturing process is.

Using the "ground chuck vs. ground round" comparison...

If you prepared both using the same method, any difference in taste between the two would be attributable to them being different cuts.

If, OTOH, you prepared one using worcestershire sauce the other using teriyaki sauce, it's a lot less likely that you'd notice any difference that resulted from them being different cuts.
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Neo Bri
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Re: What is rose brass?

Post by Neo Bri » Wed Apr 18, 2018 9:19 pm

JohnL wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 2:04 pm
Neo Bri wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 11:42 am
But I keep wondering how much the material really matters...
Depends on how close to identical the manufacturing process is.

Using the "ground chuck vs. ground round" comparison...

If you prepared both using the same method, any difference in taste between the two would be attributable to them being different cuts.

If, OTOH, you prepared one using worcestershire sauce the other using teriyaki sauce, it's a lot less likely that you'd notice any difference that resulted from them being different cuts.
Of course. And I don't think anyone's really done a comprehensive identical comparison. Too many variables changing. I recall Schilke did a big test with different bell materials...
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Re: What is rose brass?

Post by blast » Thu Apr 19, 2018 12:37 am

You can go to any of the custom makers a do your own comparison. Same bell maker and mandrel... just get the same thickness spec. and try theem out.

Chris

Yes, but I don't trust myself - I may judge with my eyes rather than my ears, or the feel.
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Re: What is rose brass?

Post by GabeLangfur » Fri Apr 20, 2018 6:59 am

But the feel is essential. The feel of the instrument affects how we play. You can't separate it from the sound entirely.
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Neo Bri
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Re: What is rose brass?

Post by Neo Bri » Fri Apr 20, 2018 8:27 am

GabeLangfur wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 6:59 am
But the feel is essential. The feel of the instrument affects how we play. You can't separate it from the sound entirely.
No, of course not. I think feel is the MOST important factor, because like you said it'll affect how I sound. But it's important to try to isolate all of the different variables as much as is practical. And that's a tall order.

I think red brass is pretty, though. And that's something.
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StevenC
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Re: What is rose brass?

Post by StevenC » Fri Apr 20, 2018 8:54 am

Neo Bri wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 8:27 am

I think red brass is pretty, though. And that's something.
and it's something that affects how you think about the instrument. If I were to do a blind test, my brain would be on overdrive trying to figure out what I am testing. Maybe some of you could test more dispassionately.
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