It is very clear that on some instruments it is possible and on some it is not. So if the original poster wants to be able to play the C, he will have to make sure he is on an instrument that allows for this.
Can I get bottom C on single plug bass trombone?
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ttf_GetzenBassPlayer
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ttf_Geezerhorn
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Can I get bottom C on single plug bass trombone?
Quote from: GetzenBassPlayer on Aug 05, 2017, 07:40PMIt is very clear that on some instruments it is possible and on some it is not. So if the original poster wants to be able to play the C, he will have to make sure he is on an instrument that allows for this.
That does seem to be a take-away on this thread, doesn't it!
I'm with Harrison that I can make a pretty nice low C on an 88H if I understand how to tune it for a low F in tight closed 1st. But it doesn't follow that that would work on every single trigger horn out there.
...Geezer
That does seem to be a take-away on this thread, doesn't it!
I'm with Harrison that I can make a pretty nice low C on an 88H if I understand how to tune it for a low F in tight closed 1st. But it doesn't follow that that would work on every single trigger horn out there.
...Geezer
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ttf_svenlarsson
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Can I get bottom C on single plug bass trombone?
Quote from: GetzenBassPlayer on Aug 05, 2017, 07:40PMIt is very clear that on some instruments it is possible and on some it is not. So if the original poster wants to be able to play the C, he will have to make sure he is on an instrument that allows for this.
You can play low C on all basstrombones even singles, the written music for basstrombonehas called for low C:s long before the double pluggs.
A slight pull for just a couple centimeters is enough even for a short slide.
To slide from F to C on the attachment you need 63,5 cntimeters. Most arm are not long enough. Most slide are not long enough. Actually no problem, you do allready lip tones a lot without knowing it your self, I have many times played low C on T6 with a slightöy short slide and still played it in tune.
The attachment tuningslide is there to be used.
An investigation made ages ago on professional trombonists (Was it Robin Gregory?) shoved that to play B on 7th position nearly all of the played the tone on a to short position, still in tune.
Try for your self, it is so easy to lip down that you sometimes do it unknowenly.
You can play low C on all basstrombones even singles, the written music for basstrombonehas called for low C:s long before the double pluggs.
A slight pull for just a couple centimeters is enough even for a short slide.
To slide from F to C on the attachment you need 63,5 cntimeters. Most arm are not long enough. Most slide are not long enough. Actually no problem, you do allready lip tones a lot without knowing it your self, I have many times played low C on T6 with a slightöy short slide and still played it in tune.
The attachment tuningslide is there to be used.
An investigation made ages ago on professional trombonists (Was it Robin Gregory?) shoved that to play B on 7th position nearly all of the played the tone on a to short position, still in tune.
Try for your self, it is so easy to lip down that you sometimes do it unknowenly.
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ttf_svenlarsson
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Can I get bottom C on single plug bass trombone?
My older colleague (I am 73) used tune the attachent to a slightly flatt F and intue C on first, the F on the attachemt was only use in passages, in lobg tone the regular 6 was used. Tha wat the low C on T6 was in tune. (They all had long slides.)
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ttf_Geezerhorn
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Can I get bottom C on single plug bass trombone?
I think some of us would rather not have to pull the E slide to make a good low C?
...Geezer
...Geezer
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ttf_Pre59
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Can I get bottom C on single plug bass trombone?
What would be the point of making a single valve B/tbn that didn't extend to a good low C? The 2 single valves basses that I owned (from '69 to '74, an Olds and a Reynolds, both had good low C's when played with a VB 1.5G. It was a long time ago and so I can't recall exactly how far I pulled the F tuning slides out, but it was around the same as for the main. It wasn't an issue at the time.
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ttf_Geezerhorn
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Can I get bottom C on single plug bass trombone?
Quote from: Pre59 on Yesterday at 05:24 AMWhat would be the point of making a single valve B/tbn that didn't extend to a good low C? The 2 single valves basses that I owned (from '69 to '74, an Olds and a Reynolds, both had good low C's when played with a VB 1.5G. It was a long time ago and so I can't recall exactly how far I pulled the F tuning slides out, but it was around the same as for the main. It wasn't an issue at the time.
And here I thought "post deleted" was your finest post!
But yeah, why should it be an issue, just b/c we are calling it out. As Sven mentioned, we are probably all lipping it down subconsciously a bit anyway. Why not practice lipping it true and then practice hitting it square on lipped-down true. So let it be thought of. So let it be written. So let it be done.
...Geezer
And here I thought "post deleted" was your finest post!
But yeah, why should it be an issue, just b/c we are calling it out. As Sven mentioned, we are probably all lipping it down subconsciously a bit anyway. Why not practice lipping it true and then practice hitting it square on lipped-down true. So let it be thought of. So let it be written. So let it be done.
...Geezer
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ttf_harrison.t.reed
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Can I get bottom C on single plug bass trombone?
So, we used to have horns with short bells and long slides. It used to be common for professional instruments to have TIS. It used to be common to tune long on the slide, and bumper springs would be there to remind you "you idiot, if you want to play Ab close to the bell, tune your Bb here. Don't worry, you can still get a B in 7th". Players used to play lower on the pitch, it would seem, and didn't need to pull the main tuning slide out an inch or more like they do today to play in tune.
I think the trend in the US of grade school music teachers (who learned all brass in one semester ) of teaching kids to tune Bb in closed first is one reason for TIS and the springs (which are admittedly annoying and not needed) mostly dissappearing. A cycle of "tune to closed first -> not actually play the note in a closed position because it's not practical -> lip up -> try to play 3rd long at the bell -> lip up -> tune again tomorrow in first lipping up -> pull tuning slide even more" makes the bell longer and longer, and manufacters make the slide shorter because you don't need a full slide when the bell is pulled over an inch.
Ask any of the guys from Sweden here, and they'll tell you how they do it in grade school there. This "problem" is mostly born out of the poor way beginning brass has been taught in the US, to the point that they redesigned instruments to accomodate for it. The low C being 40c sharp is likely stemming from US players being systematically trained to play 40c sharp and pulling the tuning slide out, as well as manufacturers accomodating for this kind of playing. If that inch on the tuning was added to the slide instead, or especially if the players just didn't play so damn sharp on everything and require that inch of pull to begin with, the C wouldn't be 40c sharp.
I think the trend in the US of grade school music teachers (who learned all brass in one semester ) of teaching kids to tune Bb in closed first is one reason for TIS and the springs (which are admittedly annoying and not needed) mostly dissappearing. A cycle of "tune to closed first -> not actually play the note in a closed position because it's not practical -> lip up -> try to play 3rd long at the bell -> lip up -> tune again tomorrow in first lipping up -> pull tuning slide even more" makes the bell longer and longer, and manufacters make the slide shorter because you don't need a full slide when the bell is pulled over an inch.
Ask any of the guys from Sweden here, and they'll tell you how they do it in grade school there. This "problem" is mostly born out of the poor way beginning brass has been taught in the US, to the point that they redesigned instruments to accomodate for it. The low C being 40c sharp is likely stemming from US players being systematically trained to play 40c sharp and pulling the tuning slide out, as well as manufacturers accomodating for this kind of playing. If that inch on the tuning was added to the slide instead, or especially if the players just didn't play so damn sharp on everything and require that inch of pull to begin with, the C wouldn't be 40c sharp.
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ttf_BGuttman
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Can I get bottom C on single plug bass trombone?
Harrison, very few instruments actually came with springs. In fact, springs seem to be a way to deal with the low F on F-attachment trombones.
Modern tuning appears to be to F in the staff
which bugs me no end since that partial is actually a bit sharp on Bb brass instruments. Tuning F at the bumpers means everything else is flat.
Orchestras often don't help since the strings are constantly "hitching" the A higher and higher. 442 and even 445 sometimes.
For those of us with shorter arms, Doug Yeo showed a way to get a little more "throw" in T6: Sit with your body facing slightly left, but turn you head back to face the conductor. Your right shoulder is now just a little further along the slide. Of course you could always have the slide fitted with an extender handle like on the G and F Basses...
Modern tuning appears to be to F in the staff
which bugs me no end since that partial is actually a bit sharp on Bb brass instruments. Tuning F at the bumpers means everything else is flat.Orchestras often don't help since the strings are constantly "hitching" the A higher and higher. 442 and even 445 sometimes.
For those of us with shorter arms, Doug Yeo showed a way to get a little more "throw" in T6: Sit with your body facing slightly left, but turn you head back to face the conductor. Your right shoulder is now just a little further along the slide. Of course you could always have the slide fitted with an extender handle like on the G and F Basses...
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ttf_blast
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Can I get bottom C on single plug bass trombone?
The bass trombone.....
Three pages on how to play one note.....
It's gonna be a BIG book......
Chris Stearn
Three pages on how to play one note.....
It's gonna be a BIG book......
Chris Stearn
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ttf_schlitzbeer
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Can I get bottom C on single plug bass trombone?
Quote from: blast on Yesterday at 10:06 AMThe bass trombone.....
Three pages on how to play one note.....
It's gonna be a BIG book......
Chris Stearn
Pocket size edition for SMALL hands?
Three pages on how to play one note.....
It's gonna be a BIG book......
Chris Stearn
Pocket size edition for SMALL hands?
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ttf_Geezerhorn
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Can I get bottom C on single plug bass trombone?
Oh, we are just getting warmed up!
We have quite a ways to go to get to the same level as "Spit Valve Etiquette"!
Hey, how 'bout those low trigger pedals!
...Geezer
We have quite a ways to go to get to the same level as "Spit Valve Etiquette"!
Hey, how 'bout those low trigger pedals!
...Geezer
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ttf_Gabe Langfur
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Can I get bottom C on single plug bass trombone?
Quote from: harrison.t.reed on Yesterday at 06:56 AMSo, we used to have horns with short bells and long slides. It used to be common for professional instruments to have TIS. It used to be common to tune long on the slide, and bumper springs would be there to remind you "you idiot, if you want to play Ab close to the bell, tune your Bb here. Don't worry, you can still get a B in 7th". Players used to play lower on the pitch, it would seem, and didn't need to pull the main tuning slide out an inch or more like they do today to play in tune.
I think the trend in the US of grade school music teachers (who learned all brass in one semester ) of teaching kids to tune Bb in closed first is one reason for TIS and the springs (which are admittedly annoying and not needed) mostly dissappearing. A cycle of "tune to closed first -> not actually play the note in a closed position because it's not practical -> lip up -> try to play 3rd long at the bell -> lip up -> tune again tomorrow in first lipping up -> pull tuning slide even more" makes the bell longer and longer, and manufacters make the slide shorter because you don't need a full slide when the bell is pulled over an inch.
Ask any of the guys from Sweden here, and they'll tell you how they do it in grade school there. This "problem" is mostly born out of the poor way beginning brass has been taught in the US, to the point that they redesigned instruments to accomodate for it. The low C being 40c sharp is likely stemming from US players being systematically trained to play 40c sharp and pulling the tuning slide out, as well as manufacturers accomodating for this kind of playing. If that inch on the tuning was added to the slide instead, or especially if the players just didn't play so damn sharp on everything and require that inch of pull to begin with, the C wouldn't be 40c sharp.
Your observations are not wrong, but I din't think you are correct about the reasons instrument designers do what they do.
Having more of the overall length in the bell section gives the designer more taper to work with, and tapers are crucial to response and especially tuning of the partial relationships. Tuning in the slide gives the designer even more control of the taper, because now there's no need for the short sections of straight tubing in the tuning slide.
The Shires alto trombone is tuning in the slide because that was the best way Steve Shires found of achieving 7 usable positions and partial relationships that made sense at the same time. He was able to make a bell tuning version that had the partials in tune with the tuning slide all the way in, but as soon as it was pulled out a half inch everything went out of whack.
Slide tuning makes a trombone more like a trumpet, with the tuning in the straight section of the tubing and the taper after it fixed. It's still a tough sell for a broad market though.
Another factor is that we now live in a global economy, and instruments need to be made to play in the tuning conventions of American wind ensembles (440), American orchestras (440-442), European orchestras (sometimes as high as 445 I believe), and who knows what else. Flute makers that build to order ask their customers what pitch level they want, because it changes where they put the tone holes.
I think the trend in the US of grade school music teachers (who learned all brass in one semester ) of teaching kids to tune Bb in closed first is one reason for TIS and the springs (which are admittedly annoying and not needed) mostly dissappearing. A cycle of "tune to closed first -> not actually play the note in a closed position because it's not practical -> lip up -> try to play 3rd long at the bell -> lip up -> tune again tomorrow in first lipping up -> pull tuning slide even more" makes the bell longer and longer, and manufacters make the slide shorter because you don't need a full slide when the bell is pulled over an inch.
Ask any of the guys from Sweden here, and they'll tell you how they do it in grade school there. This "problem" is mostly born out of the poor way beginning brass has been taught in the US, to the point that they redesigned instruments to accomodate for it. The low C being 40c sharp is likely stemming from US players being systematically trained to play 40c sharp and pulling the tuning slide out, as well as manufacturers accomodating for this kind of playing. If that inch on the tuning was added to the slide instead, or especially if the players just didn't play so damn sharp on everything and require that inch of pull to begin with, the C wouldn't be 40c sharp.
Your observations are not wrong, but I din't think you are correct about the reasons instrument designers do what they do.
Having more of the overall length in the bell section gives the designer more taper to work with, and tapers are crucial to response and especially tuning of the partial relationships. Tuning in the slide gives the designer even more control of the taper, because now there's no need for the short sections of straight tubing in the tuning slide.
The Shires alto trombone is tuning in the slide because that was the best way Steve Shires found of achieving 7 usable positions and partial relationships that made sense at the same time. He was able to make a bell tuning version that had the partials in tune with the tuning slide all the way in, but as soon as it was pulled out a half inch everything went out of whack.
Slide tuning makes a trombone more like a trumpet, with the tuning in the straight section of the tubing and the taper after it fixed. It's still a tough sell for a broad market though.
Another factor is that we now live in a global economy, and instruments need to be made to play in the tuning conventions of American wind ensembles (440), American orchestras (440-442), European orchestras (sometimes as high as 445 I believe), and who knows what else. Flute makers that build to order ask their customers what pitch level they want, because it changes where they put the tone holes.
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ttf_harrison.t.reed
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Can I get bottom C on single plug bass trombone?
Thanks Gabe. About your past paragraph though. Was it about TIS being useful for global playing, where you need a wide range of tunings, or was it about the fact that players who are used to playing long bells WITH the slide pulled on top of that have a ton of room to push in for A=445?
I could probably get to A=442 maybe 444 pushed in all the way and playing really short on the hand slide, but I've becom accustomed to playing long so it would be very difficult.
I feel like removing a half inch or more from the length of the tuning legs would give players more room in both directions?
I could probably get to A=442 maybe 444 pushed in all the way and playing really short on the hand slide, but I've becom accustomed to playing long so it would be very difficult.
I feel like removing a half inch or more from the length of the tuning legs would give players more room in both directions?
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ttf_Gabe Langfur
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Can I get bottom C on single plug bass trombone?
Quote from: harrison.t.reed on Today at 05:59 AMThanks Gabe. About your past paragraph though. Was it about TIS being useful for global playing, where you need a wide range of tunings, or was it about the fact that players who are used to playing long bells WITH the slide pulled on top of that have a ton of room to push in for A=445?
The latter.
QuoteI could probably get to A=442 maybe 440 pysged in all the way and playing really short on the hand slide, but I've becom accustomed to playing long so it would be very difficult.
I feel like removing a half inch or more from the length of the tuning legs would give players more room in both directions?
I also play with the tuning slide almost all the way in on my Shires, and I have had to cut down the tuning slide length on every Bach I've owned. I can just barely play 440 on my 70H, as long as I don't play a mouthpiece with a long shank.
Getzen/Edwards seem to be shorter overall than even my Shires. I see a lot of them with the tuning slides pulled very far out. Cutting off a half inch would be a huge problem for a lot of players.
The latter.
QuoteI could probably get to A=442 maybe 440 pysged in all the way and playing really short on the hand slide, but I've becom accustomed to playing long so it would be very difficult.
I feel like removing a half inch or more from the length of the tuning legs would give players more room in both directions?
I also play with the tuning slide almost all the way in on my Shires, and I have had to cut down the tuning slide length on every Bach I've owned. I can just barely play 440 on my 70H, as long as I don't play a mouthpiece with a long shank.
Getzen/Edwards seem to be shorter overall than even my Shires. I see a lot of them with the tuning slides pulled very far out. Cutting off a half inch would be a huge problem for a lot of players.
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ttf_svenlarsson
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Can I get bottom C on single plug bass trombone?
Yes I had to cut lots of tuning slides my self. I hate those high tunings whats wrong with 440?
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ttf_elmsandr
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Can I get bottom C on single plug bass trombone?
Quote from: svenlarsson on Today at 10:21 AMYes I had to cut lots of tuning slides my self. I hate those high tunings whats wrong with 440?
Same thing that was wrong with A=435 and A=460... nothing much. When you compare the two back to back, the slightly higher (by a Hz or two) will 'pop' or feel like it projects a little more. Meh. Not sure how valid this is, but we seem to be doing it every couple of generations, right?
Cheers,
Andy
Same thing that was wrong with A=435 and A=460... nothing much. When you compare the two back to back, the slightly higher (by a Hz or two) will 'pop' or feel like it projects a little more. Meh. Not sure how valid this is, but we seem to be doing it every couple of generations, right?
Cheers,
Andy
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ttf_savio
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Can I get bottom C on single plug bass trombone?
Quote from: svenlarsson on Today at 10:21 AMYes I had to cut lots of tuning slides my self. I hate those high tunings whats wrong with 440?
My 70h works best with 440, but when the horn is warm 442 goes OK with the tuning all the way in. Why cant all use 440? I remember I had to cut my Bach 50bl long time ago. Strange thing is the 60h I have need to be pulled a little out, but not my Holton. I think most things here are tuned 442. My ears like it best in 440.
Leif
My 70h works best with 440, but when the horn is warm 442 goes OK with the tuning all the way in. Why cant all use 440? I remember I had to cut my Bach 50bl long time ago. Strange thing is the 60h I have need to be pulled a little out, but not my Holton. I think most things here are tuned 442. My ears like it best in 440.
Leif
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ttf_harrison.t.reed
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Can I get bottom C on single plug bass trombone?
[Edited my post, I meant I might be able to get to 442 or 444 pushed in 100% and playing short on the slide.]
Good stuff Gabe. Thanks for the insight.
It's odd but the shires I have at work usually needs the slide out farther than my Edwards (1cm vs 2mm), but that's likely due to the bass slide that's on it, and the 3 pipe that I have to use on it to get the right feel.
Good stuff Gabe. Thanks for the insight.
It's odd but the shires I have at work usually needs the slide out farther than my Edwards (1cm vs 2mm), but that's likely due to the bass slide that's on it, and the 3 pipe that I have to use on it to get the right feel.
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ttf_mr.deacon
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Can I get bottom C on single plug bass trombone?
Quote from: harrison.t.reed on Today at 02:40 PM[Edited my post, I meant I might be able to get to 442 or 444 pushed in 100% and playing short on the slide.]
Good stuff Gabe. Thanks for the insight.
It's odd but the shires I have at work usually needs the slide out farther than my Edwards (1cm vs 2mm), but that's likely due to the bass slide that's on it, and the 3 pipe that I have to use on it to get the right feel.
Gabe is referencing the Getzen/Edwards bass trombones. The tenors don't seem to be built sharp in the same the way the basses are built.
Good stuff Gabe. Thanks for the insight.
It's odd but the shires I have at work usually needs the slide out farther than my Edwards (1cm vs 2mm), but that's likely due to the bass slide that's on it, and the 3 pipe that I have to use on it to get the right feel.
Gabe is referencing the Getzen/Edwards bass trombones. The tenors don't seem to be built sharp in the same the way the basses are built.
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ttf_Gabe Langfur
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Can I get bottom C on single plug bass trombone?
Also, the new Edwards designs with Rotax valves (396 Alessi and 502 basses) have longer slides than the older designs.
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ttf_mr.deacon
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Can I get bottom C on single plug bass trombone?
Quote from: Gabe Langfur on Today at 02:55 PMAlso, the new Edwards designs with Rotax valves (396 Alessi and 502 basses) have longer slides than the older designs.
Really? I didn't know that! Is it the handslide that's longer or the main tuning slide?
Really? I didn't know that! Is it the handslide that's longer or the main tuning slide?
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ttf_harrison.t.reed
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Can I get bottom C on single plug bass trombone?
The handslide seems long to me. Perfect for the way I play. F and C without adjusting the F attach.
Alessi was harping on students for playing too short on the slide as well at his master class. But they were just plain out of tune.
Alessi was harping on students for playing too short on the slide as well at his master class. But they were just plain out of tune.
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ttf_Gabe Langfur
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ttf_Posaunus
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Can I get bottom C on single plug bass trombone?
I'm not quite sure that I understand the premise of this entire thread. Of course you can get a low C on a single-valve bass trombone.
I subbed in a 2-hour big band rehearsal today with my Yamaha single valve (YBL-421G) bass trombone. Charts had lots of low Cs. (Fortunately no low Bs !) And quite a few pedal notes. Got many compliments on my tone quality, low range in general - and the intonation of the low Cs (which I felt pretty good about myself - must have been having a good day!). Yes it's a long reach to T6, but it's there when you need it. And the Yamaha is light enough that it doesn't tire my aging arms.
I subbed in a 2-hour big band rehearsal today with my Yamaha single valve (YBL-421G) bass trombone. Charts had lots of low Cs. (Fortunately no low Bs !) And quite a few pedal notes. Got many compliments on my tone quality, low range in general - and the intonation of the low Cs (which I felt pretty good about myself - must have been having a good day!). Yes it's a long reach to T6, but it's there when you need it. And the Yamaha is light enough that it doesn't tire my aging arms.
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ttf_Geezerhorn
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Can I get bottom C on single plug bass trombone?
Cutting down tuning slides? Wow! Seems like a fast way to totally devalue an otherwise good horn. Unless... I am very hard-pressed to see how that could later be undone, IOW's - restored to it's factory length. 
I tried a 4G mpc in a King 4B/F this evening. I had to close the tuning slide to get the horn in tune. Unless I wrap Teflon tape around the mpc shank so it doesn't seat in as far, I wouldn't risk taking that set-up to a rehearsal, for fear I wouldn't be able to tune to the rest of the ensemble. But having it cut down? I'll pass on that. There are Forumites who would do that to a high-end horn or an otherwise prized horn such as a great Elkie? Whew!
...Geezer
I tried a 4G mpc in a King 4B/F this evening. I had to close the tuning slide to get the horn in tune. Unless I wrap Teflon tape around the mpc shank so it doesn't seat in as far, I wouldn't risk taking that set-up to a rehearsal, for fear I wouldn't be able to tune to the rest of the ensemble. But having it cut down? I'll pass on that. There are Forumites who would do that to a high-end horn or an otherwise prized horn such as a great Elkie? Whew!
...Geezer
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ttf_Gabe Langfur
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Can I get bottom C on single plug bass trombone?
Quote from: Geezerhorn on Aug 07, 2017, 06:03PMCutting down tuning slides? Wow! Seems like a fast way to totally devalue an otherwise good horn. Unless... I am very hard-pressed to see how that could later be undone, IOW's - restored to it's factory length.
It's a very simple thing on a Bach, and there's really no reason to undo it. If I can't play it, it's useless to me. In my professional life it's a very good thing to have the option of playing a Bach with a section of Bach players, so I have to cut it down. The horn I'm talking about has been around the block many times as well, and has the battle scars of several bell repairs. It's no museum piece, and it plays so much better than almost any other Bach 50 of any configuration I've played...cutting the tuning slide only made it better for me.
On the slide tuning Conn 70H it would be a very different operation that would likely require replacing the inner slide tubes. That one I won't modify that way (though it's seen a couple of surgeries in its lifetime, too).
It's a very simple thing on a Bach, and there's really no reason to undo it. If I can't play it, it's useless to me. In my professional life it's a very good thing to have the option of playing a Bach with a section of Bach players, so I have to cut it down. The horn I'm talking about has been around the block many times as well, and has the battle scars of several bell repairs. It's no museum piece, and it plays so much better than almost any other Bach 50 of any configuration I've played...cutting the tuning slide only made it better for me.
On the slide tuning Conn 70H it would be a very different operation that would likely require replacing the inner slide tubes. That one I won't modify that way (though it's seen a couple of surgeries in its lifetime, too).
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ttf_Geezerhorn
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Can I get bottom C on single plug bass trombone?
I get it. If you're paid to do what you do, then you do what you have to do to do it well. And if it isn't a "collector" horn, wall-hanger, etc then what the heck.
But for me, all I would accomplish would be to make a tough re-sale some day for either me or my widow.
...Geezer
But for me, all I would accomplish would be to make a tough re-sale some day for either me or my widow.
...Geezer
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ttf_elmsandr
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Can I get bottom C on single plug bass trombone?
Quote from: Geezerhorn on Aug 07, 2017, 06:49PMI get it. If you're paid to do what you do, then you do what you have to do to do it well. And if it isn't a "collector" horn, wall-hanger, etc then what the heck.
But for me, all I would accomplish would be to make a tough re-sale some day for either me or my widow.
...Geezer
No.
Older Bachs had longer tuning slides. My MtV and NY horns have tuning slides that the straight legs are 1/2" longer each than current production. Hand slides are the same length, all the other parts are nominally the same. But the tuning slide legs are 1/2" longer each. Puts the horn 1" longer.
Cut away, takes but a couple of minutes.
Cheers,
Andy
But for me, all I would accomplish would be to make a tough re-sale some day for either me or my widow.
...Geezer
No.
Older Bachs had longer tuning slides. My MtV and NY horns have tuning slides that the straight legs are 1/2" longer each than current production. Hand slides are the same length, all the other parts are nominally the same. But the tuning slide legs are 1/2" longer each. Puts the horn 1" longer.
Cut away, takes but a couple of minutes.
Cheers,
Andy
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ttf_svenlarsson
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- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:35 pm
Can I get bottom C on single plug bass trombone?
There are so many older Bach horns with cut tuning slides, if it is done by a good tech you can not see it. When I first played with symphonyorchestras the tuning A was 440. No problem then. Now it is at least 442. or higher.
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ttf_Geezerhorn
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- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am
Can I get bottom C on single plug bass trombone?
Well, at least it's coming out that it should be done by a tech.
A couple years ago when I posted about reaming out the bore and back-bore on some of my mouthpieces, there was a bum's rush of warnings on how I shouldn't be posting about that and about how "worried" a few Forumites were that kids would be ruining their mouthpieces by trying this at home.
Only problem is, I have a small plumber's pipe cutter. Anyone can buy one. What's to stop someone from trying this at home and botching it?
Shouldn't there be warnings about trying this at home?
...Geezer
A couple years ago when I posted about reaming out the bore and back-bore on some of my mouthpieces, there was a bum's rush of warnings on how I shouldn't be posting about that and about how "worried" a few Forumites were that kids would be ruining their mouthpieces by trying this at home.
Only problem is, I have a small plumber's pipe cutter. Anyone can buy one. What's to stop someone from trying this at home and botching it?
Shouldn't there be warnings about trying this at home?
...Geezer
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ttf_elmsandr
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- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:00 pm
Can I get bottom C on single plug bass trombone?
Quote from: Geezerhorn on Aug 08, 2017, 03:51AMWell, at least it's coming out that it should be done by a tech.
A couple years ago when I posted about reaming out the bore and back-bore on some of my mouthpieces, there was a bum's rush of warnings on how I shouldn't be posting about that and about how "worried" a few Forumites were that kids would be ruining their mouthpieces by trying this at home.
Only problem is, I have a small plumber's pipe cutter. Anyone can buy one. What's to stop someone from trying this at home and botching it?
Shouldn't there be warnings about trying this at home?
...Geezer
Well, like the mouthpiece in the drill press, if you are dumb enough to try the tubing cutter, you deserve the results. Cutting tubes is a fairly novice repair job, with the right tools. Heck, I usually do it with a dremel cutoff wheel rather than the jewlers saw. Either way, deburring and cleaning at the end is paramount.
Cheers,
Andy
A couple years ago when I posted about reaming out the bore and back-bore on some of my mouthpieces, there was a bum's rush of warnings on how I shouldn't be posting about that and about how "worried" a few Forumites were that kids would be ruining their mouthpieces by trying this at home.
Only problem is, I have a small plumber's pipe cutter. Anyone can buy one. What's to stop someone from trying this at home and botching it?
Shouldn't there be warnings about trying this at home?
...Geezer
Well, like the mouthpiece in the drill press, if you are dumb enough to try the tubing cutter, you deserve the results. Cutting tubes is a fairly novice repair job, with the right tools. Heck, I usually do it with a dremel cutoff wheel rather than the jewlers saw. Either way, deburring and cleaning at the end is paramount.
Cheers,
Andy
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ttf_Geezerhorn
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- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am
Can I get bottom C on single plug bass trombone?
Quote from: elmsandr on Aug 08, 2017, 04:32AMWell, like the mouthpiece in the drill press, if you are dumb enough to try the tubing cutter, you deserve the results. Cutting tubes is a fairly novice repair job, with the right tools. Heck, I usually do it with a dremel cutoff wheel rather than the jewlers saw. Either way, deburring and cleaning at the end is paramount.
Cheers,
Andy
See, fellow Forumites!
Let that be a "warning" to those who would botch it up by attempting to "all-thumbs" it at home!
OBTW: it's not just a matter of applying a drill press to open up a mpc bore. The bottom of the cup should be shaped as well, so it's probably a job best left for a competent tech. I acquired a vintage Bach 7C mpc where the bore was professionally opened. That mpc will help produce a far better low C for me than my standard Bach 7C mpc.
...Geezer
Cheers,
Andy
See, fellow Forumites!
Let that be a "warning" to those who would botch it up by attempting to "all-thumbs" it at home!
OBTW: it's not just a matter of applying a drill press to open up a mpc bore. The bottom of the cup should be shaped as well, so it's probably a job best left for a competent tech. I acquired a vintage Bach 7C mpc where the bore was professionally opened. That mpc will help produce a far better low C for me than my standard Bach 7C mpc.
...Geezer
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ttf_Exzaclee
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- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:53 am
Can I get bottom C on single plug bass trombone?
Quote from: svenlarsson on Aug 08, 2017, 01:13AMThere are so many older Bach horns with cut tuning slides, if it is done by a good tech you can not see it. When I first played with symphonyorchestras the tuning A was 440. No problem then. Now it is at least 442. or higher.
I wanted to add a little to this and Gabe's comments regarding cut tuning slides..
King 2Bs are notorious for being too long for guys who play larger pieces. Bachs as well as Sven and Gabe can attest to.
I've had tuning slides cut on my 2Bs - not all of them, if I don't decide to keep a horn for myself I won't cut it. I've always played on 6.5AL sized-pieces and king 2Bs were designed for much smaller mpcs - at least this was the reason given for my tuning issues when I talked to the repairmen I frequented at the time. I never had the same issues on large bores so it made sense. Getting the tuning slide cut solved a lot of issues, although on some horns it can mess up the partials a little bit.
I usually keep at least one horn around (usually a 2B or 2B+) that hasn't been cut. It gets hot during the summers in the caribbean, it gets even hotter in Oklahoma. As anyone who has had to play outdoor gigs in 100º+ weather can tell you, no one makes a tuning slide long enough for that.
Quote from: Geezerhorn on Aug 08, 2017, 03:51AMWell, at least it's coming out that it should be done by a tech.
I can't believe anyone would assume that one should do this without a tech, unless one just has an endless supply of horns (and money) and just wants to experiment.
Cutting a tuning slide isn't the most difficult repair job, but it needs to be done right or you just end up with a horn that doesn't play as well as it used to and you have to learn all new positions. Usually when done right, the positions are all the same relatively, just further out. When it's botched this may not be the case, the tubes may not seal as well, you may have a new "buzz" that wasn't there before, you may find some "dead notes" that sound like the spit valve is open when you play them. You may even lose 7th position... not a big deal on a small horn but a huge problem on a large bore.
When I have mine cut, I send them to good repairmen who know what's up, who've done it enough to know how to do it right. This usually doesn't detract from re-sale unless you're doing it to a "white elephant" - basically any horn with extreme collector value like a Williams, a mint condition 2BSS or 3BSS, a NY Bach.... and if you have such a horn that has been cut, you can still get good money for it as long as you're selling it to someone who needs a cut horn. Provided the job was done right.
Quote from: Geezerhorn on Aug 08, 2017, 03:51AMShouldn't there be warnings about trying this at home?
Whether stated or implied, the warnings are there. If you need to remove your gall bladder, are you gonna call uncle ralph, grab a bottle of Jamison and a carpet knife and have at her? As someone who has performed mild surgery on his own foot, I can save you the trouble and tell you it's just better to go to a doctor. Yes, an exacto knife and a scalpel are similar enough to do the same job, but the hands wielding that tool are not.
I wanted to add a little to this and Gabe's comments regarding cut tuning slides..
King 2Bs are notorious for being too long for guys who play larger pieces. Bachs as well as Sven and Gabe can attest to.
I've had tuning slides cut on my 2Bs - not all of them, if I don't decide to keep a horn for myself I won't cut it. I've always played on 6.5AL sized-pieces and king 2Bs were designed for much smaller mpcs - at least this was the reason given for my tuning issues when I talked to the repairmen I frequented at the time. I never had the same issues on large bores so it made sense. Getting the tuning slide cut solved a lot of issues, although on some horns it can mess up the partials a little bit.
I usually keep at least one horn around (usually a 2B or 2B+) that hasn't been cut. It gets hot during the summers in the caribbean, it gets even hotter in Oklahoma. As anyone who has had to play outdoor gigs in 100º+ weather can tell you, no one makes a tuning slide long enough for that.
Quote from: Geezerhorn on Aug 08, 2017, 03:51AMWell, at least it's coming out that it should be done by a tech.
I can't believe anyone would assume that one should do this without a tech, unless one just has an endless supply of horns (and money) and just wants to experiment.
Cutting a tuning slide isn't the most difficult repair job, but it needs to be done right or you just end up with a horn that doesn't play as well as it used to and you have to learn all new positions. Usually when done right, the positions are all the same relatively, just further out. When it's botched this may not be the case, the tubes may not seal as well, you may have a new "buzz" that wasn't there before, you may find some "dead notes" that sound like the spit valve is open when you play them. You may even lose 7th position... not a big deal on a small horn but a huge problem on a large bore.
When I have mine cut, I send them to good repairmen who know what's up, who've done it enough to know how to do it right. This usually doesn't detract from re-sale unless you're doing it to a "white elephant" - basically any horn with extreme collector value like a Williams, a mint condition 2BSS or 3BSS, a NY Bach.... and if you have such a horn that has been cut, you can still get good money for it as long as you're selling it to someone who needs a cut horn. Provided the job was done right.
Quote from: Geezerhorn on Aug 08, 2017, 03:51AMShouldn't there be warnings about trying this at home?
Whether stated or implied, the warnings are there. If you need to remove your gall bladder, are you gonna call uncle ralph, grab a bottle of Jamison and a carpet knife and have at her? As someone who has performed mild surgery on his own foot, I can save you the trouble and tell you it's just better to go to a doctor. Yes, an exacto knife and a scalpel are similar enough to do the same job, but the hands wielding that tool are not.
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ttf_Geezerhorn
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- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am
Can I get bottom C on single plug bass trombone?
Quote from: Exzaclee on Aug 08, 2017, 06:29AMI wanted to add a little to this and Gabe's comments regarding cut tuning slides..
King 2Bs are notorious for being too long for guys who play larger pieces. Bachs as well as Sven and Gabe can attest to.
I've had tuning slides cut on my 2Bs - not all of them, if I don't decide to keep a horn for myself I won't cut it. I've always played on 6.5AL sized-pieces and king 2Bs were designed for much smaller mpcs - at least this was the reason given for my tuning issues when I talked to the repairmen I frequented at the time. I never had the same issues on large bores so it made sense. Getting the tuning slide cut solved a lot of issues, although on some horns it can mess up the partials a little bit.
I usually keep at least one horn around (usually a 2B or 2B+) that hasn't been cut. It gets hot during the summers in the caribbean, it gets even hotter in Oklahoma. As anyone who has had to play outdoor gigs in 100º+ weather can tell you, no one makes a tuning slide long enough for that.
I can't believe anyone would assume that one should do this without a tech, unless one just has an endless supply of horns (and money) and just wants to experiment.
Cutting a tuning slide isn't the most difficult repair job, but it needs to be done right or you just end up with a horn that doesn't play as well as it used to and you have to learn all new positions. Usually when done right, the positions are all the same relatively, just further out. When it's botched this may not be the case, the tubes may not seal as well, you may have a new "buzz" that wasn't there before, you may find some "dead notes" that sound like the spit valve is open when you play them. You may even lose 7th position... not a big deal on a small horn but a huge problem on a large bore.
When I have mine cut, I send them to good repairmen who know what's up, who've done it enough to know how to do it right. This usually doesn't detract from re-sale unless you're doing it to a "white elephant" - basically any horn with extreme collector value like a Williams, a mint condition 2BSS or 3BSS, a NY Bach.... and if you have such a horn that has been cut, you can still get good money for it as long as you're selling it to someone who needs a cut horn. Provided the job was done right.
Whether stated or implied, the warnings are there. If you need to remove your gall bladder, are you gonna call uncle ralph, grab a bottle of Jamison and a carpet knife and have at her? As someone who has performed mild surgery on his own foot, I can save you the trouble and tell you it's just better to go to a doctor. Yes, an exacto knife and a scalpel are similar enough to do the same job, but the hands wielding that tool are not.
I can and with less qualifiers.
Anyway, I think this aside has been a valuable consciousness-raising dialog on the subject, since it was mentioned. Thanks for your input! And since you mentioned everything that could go wrong, even if done by a competent tech, it re-enforces my reluctance to either experiment on my own or have it done for me. Instead, I'll simply either experiment with positioning the mouthpiece in the lead pipe shorter or use a mouthpiece on a given horn where there is enough latitude on the tuning slide to cover a multitude of playing situations. But I can do that. I don't need to play in an outside group. I do so for fun and if it's no longer fun, I quit. Lots of others perhaps may not have that luxury.
Thanks again...
...Geezer
King 2Bs are notorious for being too long for guys who play larger pieces. Bachs as well as Sven and Gabe can attest to.
I've had tuning slides cut on my 2Bs - not all of them, if I don't decide to keep a horn for myself I won't cut it. I've always played on 6.5AL sized-pieces and king 2Bs were designed for much smaller mpcs - at least this was the reason given for my tuning issues when I talked to the repairmen I frequented at the time. I never had the same issues on large bores so it made sense. Getting the tuning slide cut solved a lot of issues, although on some horns it can mess up the partials a little bit.
I usually keep at least one horn around (usually a 2B or 2B+) that hasn't been cut. It gets hot during the summers in the caribbean, it gets even hotter in Oklahoma. As anyone who has had to play outdoor gigs in 100º+ weather can tell you, no one makes a tuning slide long enough for that.
I can't believe anyone would assume that one should do this without a tech, unless one just has an endless supply of horns (and money) and just wants to experiment.
Cutting a tuning slide isn't the most difficult repair job, but it needs to be done right or you just end up with a horn that doesn't play as well as it used to and you have to learn all new positions. Usually when done right, the positions are all the same relatively, just further out. When it's botched this may not be the case, the tubes may not seal as well, you may have a new "buzz" that wasn't there before, you may find some "dead notes" that sound like the spit valve is open when you play them. You may even lose 7th position... not a big deal on a small horn but a huge problem on a large bore.
When I have mine cut, I send them to good repairmen who know what's up, who've done it enough to know how to do it right. This usually doesn't detract from re-sale unless you're doing it to a "white elephant" - basically any horn with extreme collector value like a Williams, a mint condition 2BSS or 3BSS, a NY Bach.... and if you have such a horn that has been cut, you can still get good money for it as long as you're selling it to someone who needs a cut horn. Provided the job was done right.
Whether stated or implied, the warnings are there. If you need to remove your gall bladder, are you gonna call uncle ralph, grab a bottle of Jamison and a carpet knife and have at her? As someone who has performed mild surgery on his own foot, I can save you the trouble and tell you it's just better to go to a doctor. Yes, an exacto knife and a scalpel are similar enough to do the same job, but the hands wielding that tool are not.
I can and with less qualifiers.
Anyway, I think this aside has been a valuable consciousness-raising dialog on the subject, since it was mentioned. Thanks for your input! And since you mentioned everything that could go wrong, even if done by a competent tech, it re-enforces my reluctance to either experiment on my own or have it done for me. Instead, I'll simply either experiment with positioning the mouthpiece in the lead pipe shorter or use a mouthpiece on a given horn where there is enough latitude on the tuning slide to cover a multitude of playing situations. But I can do that. I don't need to play in an outside group. I do so for fun and if it's no longer fun, I quit. Lots of others perhaps may not have that luxury.
Thanks again...
...Geezer
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ttf_Geezerhorn
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am
Can I get bottom C on single plug bass trombone?
Quote from: Exzaclee on Aug 08, 2017, 06:29AMI wanted to add a little to this and Gabe's comments regarding cut tuning slides..
King 2Bs are notorious for being too long for guys who play larger pieces. Bachs as well as Sven and Gabe can attest to.
I've had tuning slides cut on my 2Bs - not all of them, if I don't decide to keep a horn for myself I won't cut it. I've always played on 6.5AL sized-pieces and king 2Bs were designed for much smaller mpcs - at least this was the reason given for my tuning issues when I talked to the repairmen I frequented at the time. I never had the same issues on large bores so it made sense. Getting the tuning slide cut solved a lot of issues, although on some horns it can mess up the partials a little bit.
I usually keep at least one horn around (usually a 2B or 2B+) that hasn't been cut. It gets hot during the summers in the caribbean, it gets even hotter in Oklahoma. As anyone who has had to play outdoor gigs in 100º+ weather can tell you, no one makes a tuning slide long enough for that.
I can't believe anyone would assume that one should do this without a tech, unless one just has an endless supply of horns (and money) and just wants to experiment.
Cutting a tuning slide isn't the most difficult repair job, but it needs to be done right or you just end up with a horn that doesn't play as well as it used to and you have to learn all new positions. Usually when done right, the positions are all the same relatively, just further out. When it's botched this may not be the case, the tubes may not seal as well, you may have a new "buzz" that wasn't there before, you may find some "dead notes" that sound like the spit valve is open when you play them. You may even lose 7th position... not a big deal on a small horn but a huge problem on a large bore.
When I have mine cut, I send them to good repairmen who know what's up, who've done it enough to know how to do it right. This usually doesn't detract from re-sale unless you're doing it to a "white elephant" - basically any horn with extreme collector value like a Williams, a mint condition 2BSS or 3BSS, a NY Bach.... and if you have such a horn that has been cut, you can still get good money for it as long as you're selling it to someone who needs a cut horn. Provided the job was done right.
Whether stated or implied, the warnings are there. If you need to remove your gall bladder, are you gonna call uncle ralph, grab a bottle of Jamison and a carpet knife and have at her? As someone who has performed mild surgery on his own foot, I can save you the trouble and tell you it's just better to go to a doctor. Yes, an exacto knife and a scalpel are similar enough to do the same job, but the hands wielding that tool are not.
I can and with less qualifiers.
Anyway, I think this aside has been a valuable consciousness-raising dialog on the subject, since it was mentioned. Thanks for your input! And since you mentioned everything that could go wrong, even if done by a competent tech, it re-enforces my reluctance to either experiment on my own or have it done for me. Instead, I'll simply either experiment with positioning the mouthpiece in the lead pipe shorter or use a mouthpiece on a given horn where there is enough latitude on the tuning slide to cover a multitude of playing situations. But I can do that. I don't need to play in an outside group. I do so for fun and if it's no longer fun, I quit. Lots of others perhaps may not have that luxury.
Thanks again...
...Geezer
King 2Bs are notorious for being too long for guys who play larger pieces. Bachs as well as Sven and Gabe can attest to.
I've had tuning slides cut on my 2Bs - not all of them, if I don't decide to keep a horn for myself I won't cut it. I've always played on 6.5AL sized-pieces and king 2Bs were designed for much smaller mpcs - at least this was the reason given for my tuning issues when I talked to the repairmen I frequented at the time. I never had the same issues on large bores so it made sense. Getting the tuning slide cut solved a lot of issues, although on some horns it can mess up the partials a little bit.
I usually keep at least one horn around (usually a 2B or 2B+) that hasn't been cut. It gets hot during the summers in the caribbean, it gets even hotter in Oklahoma. As anyone who has had to play outdoor gigs in 100º+ weather can tell you, no one makes a tuning slide long enough for that.
I can't believe anyone would assume that one should do this without a tech, unless one just has an endless supply of horns (and money) and just wants to experiment.
Cutting a tuning slide isn't the most difficult repair job, but it needs to be done right or you just end up with a horn that doesn't play as well as it used to and you have to learn all new positions. Usually when done right, the positions are all the same relatively, just further out. When it's botched this may not be the case, the tubes may not seal as well, you may have a new "buzz" that wasn't there before, you may find some "dead notes" that sound like the spit valve is open when you play them. You may even lose 7th position... not a big deal on a small horn but a huge problem on a large bore.
When I have mine cut, I send them to good repairmen who know what's up, who've done it enough to know how to do it right. This usually doesn't detract from re-sale unless you're doing it to a "white elephant" - basically any horn with extreme collector value like a Williams, a mint condition 2BSS or 3BSS, a NY Bach.... and if you have such a horn that has been cut, you can still get good money for it as long as you're selling it to someone who needs a cut horn. Provided the job was done right.
Whether stated or implied, the warnings are there. If you need to remove your gall bladder, are you gonna call uncle ralph, grab a bottle of Jamison and a carpet knife and have at her? As someone who has performed mild surgery on his own foot, I can save you the trouble and tell you it's just better to go to a doctor. Yes, an exacto knife and a scalpel are similar enough to do the same job, but the hands wielding that tool are not.
I can and with less qualifiers.
Anyway, I think this aside has been a valuable consciousness-raising dialog on the subject, since it was mentioned. Thanks for your input! And since you mentioned everything that could go wrong, even if done by a competent tech, it re-enforces my reluctance to either experiment on my own or have it done for me. Instead, I'll simply either experiment with positioning the mouthpiece in the lead pipe shorter or use a mouthpiece on a given horn where there is enough latitude on the tuning slide to cover a multitude of playing situations. But I can do that. I don't need to play in an outside group. I do so for fun and if it's no longer fun, I quit. Lots of others perhaps may not have that luxury.
Thanks again...
...Geezer