Embouchure motion with articulations

ttf_Pancitcooker · Post by **ttf_Pancitcooker** » Wed Jul 26, 2017 7:01 pm

Hello All,

The last time I took a private lesson was back in Spring of 2015. Ever since then I haven't been as serious about my skills as I have been in the past and have been "busy" with working as a teacher in the public school system and as a private instructor. I still practice every once in awhile to keep up my chops, but not as consistently as I did in college. After attending ITF for the first time this summer, my motivation for improving on the trombone has come back. I remember one of things we were focusing on in my last semester of lessons was keeping the embouchure "quiet" and getting rid of the extra motion. I have attached a link to a video of me playing a C scale. I notice that I have a lot of motion in my embouchure as I articulate and as I move up and down partials. I think it sometimes hinders my accuracy with tone and the note overall..

Here is the video.

I have to admit that each time I try to keep it quiet, I lose motivation because (I believe) my tone suffers. I would like to know everyone's opinions on this. Is this much motion bad for my playing? What do you think of when you play in order to keep the embouchure quiet?

I look forward to hearing from everyone!

Best,
J

ttf_Doug Elliott · Post by **ttf_Doug Elliott** » Wed Jul 26, 2017 8:02 pm

Yes that much motion is bad for your playing.
One way to work on it is simply to watch yourself closely in a mirror and try to make your face look totally still as you play different things, slurring and articulating. Double and triple tongue may be easier to do that with than single tongue.
Your sound will probably suffer as you noted. Put up with it for the sake of stabilizing. You can work on that again later.

There are other techniques I use but I'm not going to get into it here.

ttf_svenlarsson · Post by **ttf_svenlarsson** » Thu Jul 27, 2017 3:50 am

You have a big motion in you attack, you have to work on your tonguing. Your jaw should not move in your attack. Practise attacks with only air, no tongue. Learn to use you tongue when you find out that your tongue is not needed to start any tone, the tongues only makes the attack clean. What I see is not a embouchure motion, it is an unnecessary attack motion. I watch the video agin to be sure.

Yes your worst problem is your tonguing. Besides that you need more controll in you chin. Try point your chin downwards, without pulling your lower lip down.

ttf_harrison.t.reed · Post by **ttf_harrison.t.reed** » Thu Jul 27, 2017 6:59 am

I thought it sounded pretty good though. It wasn't like if I heard it I'd be able to tell that the articulations looked weird.

ttf_Geezerhorn · Post by **ttf_Geezerhorn** » Thu Jul 27, 2017 7:34 am

Playing in front of a mirror could be of help if the OP wishes to identify and reduce or eliminate movement.

...Geezer

ttf_svenlarsson · Post by **ttf_svenlarsson** » Thu Jul 27, 2017 9:36 am

Quote from: harrison.t.reed on Today at 06:59 AMI thought it sounded pretty good though. It wasn't like if I heard it I'd be able to tell that the articulations looked weird.
Right, the sound is good except the high Bb that is a bit squeaky, but just the attacks can be better.

ttf_watermailonman · Post by **ttf_watermailonman** » Thu Jul 27, 2017 1:25 pm

Quote from: harrison.t.reed on Today at 06:59 AMI thought it sounded pretty good though. It wasn't like if I heard it I'd be able to tell that the articulations looked weird.

Yes the sound was good. If you play legato, is the same thing then happening with your embouchure? I also have some motions in my embouchure that I'm trying to get rid of but they are really minor compared to this. I think my motion is a micro-reminiscent of the old smile embouchure I had forty years ago. Yes FORTY years and still not having the problem completely solved.

Look in the mirror and see if you can do less of the motions. Sven has probably right in what he says, he usually has when it comes to helping with embouchure problems, but the highest note you played was a C not Bb

/Tom

ttf_baileyman · Post by **ttf_baileyman** » Fri Jul 28, 2017 5:38 am

As a simple thing to do, try the same exercise with no articulation and just gliss the notes. If the motion is due to tonguing then you may be able to gliss it with no weird motions.

ttf_Pre59 · Post by **ttf_Pre59** » Fri Jul 28, 2017 7:28 am

Quote from: svenlarsson on Jul 27, 2017, 09:36AMRight, the sound is good except the high Bb that is a bit squeaky, but just the attacks can be better.

Make that a C?

ttf_svenlarsson · Post by **ttf_svenlarsson** » Fri Jul 28, 2017 7:58 am

Quote from: Pre59 on Jul 28, 2017, 07:28AMMake that a C?

Yes yes yes as Tomas said it is a C.

ttf_Pre59 · Post by **ttf_Pre59** » Fri Jul 28, 2017 8:07 am

It seems to me that you're using a lot of air, and there's a lot of movement on the lips which is wasted energy. I'm out of step with modern teaching materials but I have found that practicing close harmonic intervals like Bb to D, D to F, F to G, slow to fast, to be very good for efficiency and flexibility.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Trombone-Advanced-Lip-Flexibilities-book-/371910711216

There's been a few er, unfavourable comments about it on here but it was extremely popular once.. I don't have a copy any more but I still use a lot of the ex's on a daily basis, and tend to break up the patterns after a while: positions 1 to 4, 2 to 5, etc etc, also reverse the direction of travel of the harmonic sequence.

Also, at only $12 you can take a punt on it without a major loss, if you can't find the good in it..

ttf_timothy42b · Post by **ttf_timothy42b** » Fri Jul 28, 2017 8:24 am

Quote from: harrison.t.reed on Jul 27, 2017, 06:59AMI thought it sounded pretty good though. It wasn't like if I heard it I'd be able to tell that the articulations looked weird.

Yeah, I agree. Good tone, reasonably clean start to the note, though I don't think he's starting notes with the tongue. I think it's all lip motion.

He really chips the G descending badly, and I think that's because of the motion.

His corners move up and down with register. Interesting.

ttf_Geezerhorn · Post by **ttf_Geezerhorn** » Fri Jul 28, 2017 8:26 am

I am coming to believe it is also possible to increase playing range by working on minimizing or even eliminating unnecessary movement. By "increase playing range", I mean actually adding some top notes and making all the existing ones sound better.

...Geezer

ttf_svenlarsson · Post by **ttf_svenlarsson** » Fri Jul 28, 2017 9:01 am

The OP use the tongue, but he is chewing when tounging. He probably have a better range then most members here. He has a good sound, the attack is not that bad, if he can learn how to tongue without the chewing it be super. He use the air in a good way. The corners and lips mowe in sympathy with his chin.
The C is a problem because of the smile, that might has to do with the chewing.

The most obvious problem is the chewing.

ttf_watermailonman · Post by **ttf_watermailonman** » Sat Jul 29, 2017 12:12 pm

Since this is a problem I also struggle with I made a study to help. It is something I did to help my bad legato but I realize it also can be used to help reducing lip movements in this case.

Yesterday I picked up the study again, and decided to made a video about it. The sheets (if anyone needs them) is on two separate links in the thread below.

Here is the helping thread: http://tromboneforum.org/index.php/topic,101391.msg1205498.html#msg1205498

If not interested in the study you could go there and guess my emboshure type

/Tom

ttf_harrison.t.reed · Sat Jul 29, 2017 12:15 pm

Same as Christian Lindberg's embouchure. Swedish! Sounds good Tom!

ttf_mr.deacon · Post by **ttf_mr.deacon** » Sat Jul 29, 2017 10:33 pm

Ha! You do the same thing I used to do!!! In middle school I learned to articulate notes with my face instead of my tongue and it's been a bad habit I've been fighting ever since. I never even realized this was a problem till someone pointed this out in a lesson last year

The key is to use your tongue!!! Well I'm sure you're saying duhhh. But you have to be VERYYYYY conscious about using your tongue.

Be conscious of where you are placing your tongue in your mouth. High notes usually the articulation is higher, low notes the articulation is lower. Keep the airflow constant. Remember, to articulate your tongue is just simply interrupting the air stream.

The other key is to experiment and use a mirror. Shifts and jaw movement are fine of course but make sure you are not chewing notes!!!

Make sure you articulate comfortably and that your articulations are clean. Be VERY engaged in your practice, you're relearning some real fundamentals here and you want to get things right. Trust me, once you get past the awkward phase of "where hell does my tongue go?" things are going to start feeling goooood. Keep experimenting and find what works!!! This is not a quick thing that is going to be fixed in one or two practice sessions.

Something that also helped me a lot, oddly enough, was Brad Edwards natural slurs books. Not sure why it helped... better air flow? more conscious thought about articulations? I dunno but it helped me haha.

ttf_svenlarsson · Post by **ttf_svenlarsson** » Tue Aug 01, 2017 6:25 am

Quote from: mr.deacon on Jul 29, 2017, 10:33PMHa! You do the same thing I used to do!!! In middle school I learned to articulate notes with my face instead of my tongue and it's been a bad habit I've been fighting ever since. I never even realized this was a problem till someone pointed this out in a lesson last year

The key is to use your tongue!!! Well I'm sure you're saying duhhh. But you have to be VERYYYYY conscious about using your tongue.

Be conscious of where you are placing your tongue in your mouth. High notes usually the articulation is higher, low notes the articulation is lower. Keep the airflow constant. Remember, to articulate your tongue is just simply interrupting the air stream.

The other key is to experiment and use a mirror. Shifts and jaw movement are fine of course but make sure you are not chewing notes!!!

Make sure you articulate comfortably and that your articulations are clean. Be VERY engaged in your practice, you're relearning some real fundamentals here and you want to get things right. Trust me, once you get past the awkward phase of "where hell does my tongue go?" things are going to start feeling goooood. Keep experimenting and find what works!!! This is not a quick thing that is going to be fixed in one or two practice sessions.

Something that also helped me a lot, oddly enough, was Brad Edwards natural slurs books. Not sure why it helped... better air flow? more conscious thought about articulations? I dunno but it helped me haha.
I do think I understand what you are saying even though you could word it differenntly.

ttf_svenlarsson · Post by **ttf_svenlarsson** » Tue Aug 01, 2017 6:36 am

The OP close his jaw and open it together with his tounging, he does it very good. He is not really chewing the tones, he is chewing the attack.

When I recommended no tongue, I did think of just starting the tones with airflow like hoo. Find the Caruso practising, look at Sam burtis letter, do both the "ha da ta and ta da ha" ( for swedish ho do to, to do ho) Or practise triads and scales and start every tone with just air. When you have practised that enough just add the toungue, the tounge is placed on very different for different persons.

ttf_Pancitcooker · Post by **ttf_Pancitcooker** » Wed Aug 02, 2017 9:24 am

Thank you all for your responses! I have been reading them as you guys have been posting and I have been trying to practice with the most quiet embouchure I can. I plan on doing a video practice journal to assess the embouchure motion. I have had about 8 good hours of practice on trying to keep the embouchure quiet so far and this is what I have noticed.

1. It is really hard! My tone is ugly. My wife is a musician as well and she was hearing me practice.. she told me, "You were making some interesting sounds!" (She knows I'm going through this change)
2. Looking in the mirror and my phone (when it was working) I noticed only the slightest motion when I would go to tongue. The motion was only around the mouthpiece and you wouldn't be able to see it from 5 feet away, but with the phone zoomed in all the way, it is quite noticeable. I am trying to quiet that down even more! I have noticed my chewing motion has gone away.. however, it only happens when I try to tongue the first initial note.. so I am strictly on hoo attacks at least on the first note of any sequence.
3. The first couple hours, I believe I was engaging the wrong muscles in my face and was feeling quite fatigued around my jaw's joints.. I then focused more on just keeping the lower jaw dropped and it got rid of the fatigue. However, my tone is now wobbly.. perhaps I am not supporting my air? I guess my question for this bullet point is this: Which muscles do you feel engaged, if any, when you are focusing on keeping the jaw dropped?

I think that is all for now. I will keep you all posted on more things I find from my own assessments and look forward to everyone's feedback/comments.

J

ttf_timothy42b · Post by **ttf_timothy42b** » Wed Aug 02, 2017 10:13 am

I don't drop my jaw. I do try to stay still, except of course for the "motion."

If I get a chance I'll video myself doing your scale.

ttf_Doug Elliott · Post by **ttf_Doug Elliott** » Wed Aug 02, 2017 12:09 pm

Quote from: JB Trombone on Aug 02, 2017, 09:24AM3. The first couple hours, I believe I was engaging the wrong muscles in my face and was feeling quite fatigued around my jaw's joints.. I then focused more on just keeping the lower jaw dropped and it got rid of the fatigue. However, my tone is now wobbly.. perhaps I am not supporting my air? I guess my question for this bullet point is this: Which muscles do you feel engaged, if any, when you are focusing on keeping the jaw dropped?
The reason you felt fatigued around you jaw joints was because you were starting to use those muscles for the first time, and that's what you need to develop.
Keeping your jaw dropped is a REALLY bad idea.

ttf_svenlarsson · Post by **ttf_svenlarsson** » Thu Aug 03, 2017 9:35 am

Maybe we have a semantic missunderstanding here. When you say the "jaw droped" does tha mean that you jaw is lower then it need for normal tones? Maybe not, my sugestion is that you should avoid raising your jaw for the attack, the tongue do the tonguing without the help of the jaw.
In other words, don´t close your jaw in order to attack a tone.

How low the bottom jaw should be is absolutely impossible for us to say, it depends on so may things like size of teeth, lips and tongue, and more.

You jaw should be just enough open to make a good sound, not more not less. And it stays like that when attack a tone.

May guess is that your airflow is wobling.

ttf_svenlarsson · Post by **ttf_svenlarsson** » Thu Aug 03, 2017 9:44 am

I just looked at you video again. You sound is good, don´t make a bigger problem the nessesary.
The bottom jaw obviosly find its best place right after the attack (VERY FAST impressing) so you can produce a good sound, the jaw is in place.

ttf_svenlarsson · Post by **ttf_svenlarsson** » Thu Aug 03, 2017 9:44 am

I just looked at you video again. You sound is good, don´t make a bigger problem the nessesary.
The bottom jaw obviosly find its best place right after the attack (VERY FAST impressing) so you can produce a good sound, the jaw is in place.