The vast majority of professional Conn trombones use a reverse tuning slide. The exceptions are the 71H, 72H, 73H, and 83H bass trombones. The 110H, 111H, and 112H have a reverse tuning slide. I'm not sure about the new version of the 62H. The Bach Artisan trombones also have reverse tuning slides. The question is "Why do the aformentioned Conn bass trombones have a non reversed tuning slide and would there be an improvement if the tuning slides were reversed on these models?" I realize the difference would probably be subtle, but I haven't heard of anyone altering an instrument to get rid of the reverse tuning slide, though I have heard of people (especially trumpet players) modifying their horns to have a reverse tuning slide.
Conn bass trombone tuning slides
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ttf_wayne88ny
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ttf_daveyboy37
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Conn bass trombone tuning slides
The way it was explained to me, with a trumpet reverse tuning slide, you can have a longer leadpipe. A trombone tuning slide is farther down the line, so that doesn't apply.
I have never really had the chance to compare the same horn with the two different types of tuning slides. either way, the tuning slide has the least changes in diameter when it is fully closed. Once you pull it out, it will have a wider air column at two places.
I have never really had the chance to compare the same horn with the two different types of tuning slides. either way, the tuning slide has the least changes in diameter when it is fully closed. Once you pull it out, it will have a wider air column at two places.
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ttf_greenbean
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Conn bass trombone tuning slides
I can't tell you why those particular Conn models did not have reserve slides.
But I can say that the supposed advantages of a reverse tuning slide have always struck me as BS.
But I can say that the supposed advantages of a reverse tuning slide have always struck me as BS.
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ttf_mr.deacon
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Conn bass trombone tuning slides
Quote from: greenbean on Jul 11, 2017, 09:31PMI can't tell you why those particular Conn models did not have reserve slides.
But I can say that the supposed advantages of a reverse tuning slide have always struck me as BS.
Honestly they do play differently... but not enough for me to ever hack up a horn. A leadpipe or mouthpiece swap makes much more of a difference without having to hack up your horn. Heck even a valve swap will have more positive effect then reversing a tuning slide.
But I can say that the supposed advantages of a reverse tuning slide have always struck me as BS.
Honestly they do play differently... but not enough for me to ever hack up a horn. A leadpipe or mouthpiece swap makes much more of a difference without having to hack up your horn. Heck even a valve swap will have more positive effect then reversing a tuning slide.
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ttf_Blowero
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Conn bass trombone tuning slides
Quote from: daveyboy37 on Jul 11, 2017, 07:42PMThe way it was explained to me, with a trumpet reverse tuning slide, you can have a longer leadpipe. A trombone tuning slide is farther down the line, so that doesn't apply.
That always struck me as a weird "trumpet player" way of putting it. They call it a "reverse leadpipe", but in my opinion, "reverse leadpipe" is a poor descriptor of what it is. A true reversed leadpipe would be a leadpipe that starts out large and then narrows. But a "reversed" trumpet leadpipe is actually the same as a standard trumpet leadpipe. What's different is that the inner tuning slide leg comes first, and the outer tuning slide leg slides over it. It's really the same thing as a reversed trombone tuning slide, except for some reason trumpet players call it a reversed leadpipe. It's not actually a longer leadpipe; it's a long tapered section and then a short cylindrical tuning slide leg. The only difference is whether that tuning slide leg is on the outside or the inside.
Theoretically, the reason a reversed tuning slide is better is that it allows for continuous expansion of the bore, whereas a standard tuning slide has a section where the bore decreases due to the inner tuning slide leg coming after the outer tuning slide leg. That's what many players call a "choke point". Of course that theory assumes constant bore expansion is desirable, and that's not necessarily true.
That always struck me as a weird "trumpet player" way of putting it. They call it a "reverse leadpipe", but in my opinion, "reverse leadpipe" is a poor descriptor of what it is. A true reversed leadpipe would be a leadpipe that starts out large and then narrows. But a "reversed" trumpet leadpipe is actually the same as a standard trumpet leadpipe. What's different is that the inner tuning slide leg comes first, and the outer tuning slide leg slides over it. It's really the same thing as a reversed trombone tuning slide, except for some reason trumpet players call it a reversed leadpipe. It's not actually a longer leadpipe; it's a long tapered section and then a short cylindrical tuning slide leg. The only difference is whether that tuning slide leg is on the outside or the inside.
Theoretically, the reason a reversed tuning slide is better is that it allows for continuous expansion of the bore, whereas a standard tuning slide has a section where the bore decreases due to the inner tuning slide leg coming after the outer tuning slide leg. That's what many players call a "choke point". Of course that theory assumes constant bore expansion is desirable, and that's not necessarily true.
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ttf_daveyboy37
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Conn bass trombone tuning slides
I wonder if anyone has been able to develop a "constant bore" main slide for a trombone. I wonder if that would even be possible.
It seems sometimes that people think a hell of a lot more air is going through the trombone than actually is. Pretty much every "choke point" in a trombone is much bigger than the mouthpiece throat and backbore.
It seems sometimes that people think a hell of a lot more air is going through the trombone than actually is. Pretty much every "choke point" in a trombone is much bigger than the mouthpiece throat and backbore.
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ttf_Blowero
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Conn bass trombone tuning slides
Quote from: daveyboy37 on Jul 12, 2017, 01:10PMI wonder if anyone has been able to develop a "constant bore" main slide for a trombone. I wonder if that would even be possible.
It seems sometimes that people think a hell of a lot more air is going through the trombone than actually is. Pretty much every "choke point" in a trombone is much bigger than the mouthpiece throat and backbore.
I think it's less about the physical volume of air that goes through and more about how the bore profile affects the sound wave. The air doesn't create the sound; it's the vibration of the lips. But the bore profile affects the pitch and timbre of the sound. So even subtle changes like whether the inner or outer tuning slide tube comes first can have an effect.
It seems sometimes that people think a hell of a lot more air is going through the trombone than actually is. Pretty much every "choke point" in a trombone is much bigger than the mouthpiece throat and backbore.
I think it's less about the physical volume of air that goes through and more about how the bore profile affects the sound wave. The air doesn't create the sound; it's the vibration of the lips. But the bore profile affects the pitch and timbre of the sound. So even subtle changes like whether the inner or outer tuning slide tube comes first can have an effect.
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ttf_Bruce the budgie
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Conn bass trombone tuning slides
Quote from: Blowero on Jul 12, 2017, 01:47PM... more about how the bore profile affects the sound wave.
That is my understanding of it as well. Similar effect to that of a dual-bore hand slide, but more subtle. Better to have the bore diameter increase on the way towards the bell, as a restriction may provide the "wrong" kind of impedance discontinuity.
That is my understanding of it as well. Similar effect to that of a dual-bore hand slide, but more subtle. Better to have the bore diameter increase on the way towards the bell, as a restriction may provide the "wrong" kind of impedance discontinuity.
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ttf_Duffle
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Conn bass trombone tuning slides
Cost?...... Design constraints?..........
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ttf_Blowero
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Conn bass trombone tuning slides
Here's a theory: The 70H didn't have a tuning slide in the bell. The 72H was basically a 70H with tuning in the bell. The Conn Loyalist shows a 72H with a 70H below it, but the 70H has tuning in the bell. So this may be the prototype for the 72H. https://cderksen.home.xs4all.nl/Conn72H1957image.html
Note that the 70H in that picture has a reversed tuning slide. Perhaps they discovered that the reversed tuning slide wasn't stable enough, given the extra width of a bass tuning slide and the necessary location of the brace out of the way of the tuning slide leg. Maybe it didn't operate as smoothly as the 88H tuning slide. So maybe they redesigned it so they could get that brace higher up and make it more stable? Did Conn make ANY bass trombones with reversed tuning slides at that time? The 110H was much later, wasn't it? And it has an open wrap with a brace all the way across, so that issue wouldn't apply.
I have reversed the tuning slide on a 72H. I can't really say it made a huge difference.
Note that the 70H in that picture has a reversed tuning slide. Perhaps they discovered that the reversed tuning slide wasn't stable enough, given the extra width of a bass tuning slide and the necessary location of the brace out of the way of the tuning slide leg. Maybe it didn't operate as smoothly as the 88H tuning slide. So maybe they redesigned it so they could get that brace higher up and make it more stable? Did Conn make ANY bass trombones with reversed tuning slides at that time? The 110H was much later, wasn't it? And it has an open wrap with a brace all the way across, so that issue wouldn't apply.
I have reversed the tuning slide on a 72H. I can't really say it made a huge difference.
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ttf_mr.deacon
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Conn bass trombone tuning slides
Quote from: Blowero on Jul 13, 2017, 11:57PMHere's a theory: The 70H didn't have a tuning slide in the bell. The 72H was basically a 70H with tuning in the bell. The Conn Loyalist shows a 72H with a 70H below it, but the 70H has tuning in the bell. So this may be the prototype for the 72H. https://cderksen.home.xs4all.nl/Conn72H1957image.html
Note that the 70H in that picture has a reversed tuning slide. Perhaps they discovered that the reversed tuning slide wasn't stable enough, given the extra width of a bass tuning slide and the necessary location of the brace out of the way of the tuning slide leg. Maybe it didn't operate as smoothly as the 88H tuning slide. So maybe they redesigned it so they could get that brace higher up and make it more stable? Did Conn make ANY bass trombones with reversed tuning slides at that time? The 110H was much later, wasn't it? And it has an open wrap with a brace all the way across, so that issue wouldn't apply.
Just to play devils advocate... What about the 71H? Still tuning in bell but only two braced spots are the solder points on the tuning legs.
Wouldn't that make your theory moot? Or does it just go to show that the 71H was designed using whatever parts were had on hand?
Personally, I think your theory makes a lot of sense as to why the 72H has a tuning slide with two male ends instead of a reversed tuning slide like most other Conn instruments of the time
Note that the 70H in that picture has a reversed tuning slide. Perhaps they discovered that the reversed tuning slide wasn't stable enough, given the extra width of a bass tuning slide and the necessary location of the brace out of the way of the tuning slide leg. Maybe it didn't operate as smoothly as the 88H tuning slide. So maybe they redesigned it so they could get that brace higher up and make it more stable? Did Conn make ANY bass trombones with reversed tuning slides at that time? The 110H was much later, wasn't it? And it has an open wrap with a brace all the way across, so that issue wouldn't apply.
Just to play devils advocate... What about the 71H? Still tuning in bell but only two braced spots are the solder points on the tuning legs.
Wouldn't that make your theory moot? Or does it just go to show that the 71H was designed using whatever parts were had on hand?
Personally, I think your theory makes a lot of sense as to why the 72H has a tuning slide with two male ends instead of a reversed tuning slide like most other Conn instruments of the time
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ttf_Blowero
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Conn bass trombone tuning slides
Quote from: mr.deacon on Jul 14, 2017, 12:35AMJust to play devils advocate... What about the 71H? Still tuning in bell but only two braced spots are the solder points on the tuning legs.
On the 71H, the outer tuning slide tube is braced all the way at the top against the F-attachment tubing, so actually is even more heavily braced than the 72H.
Whatever the reason, it would seem that up until the 110H, Conn seemed to think that bass trombones shouldn't have reversed tuning slides.
On the 71H, the outer tuning slide tube is braced all the way at the top against the F-attachment tubing, so actually is even more heavily braced than the 72H.
Whatever the reason, it would seem that up until the 110H, Conn seemed to think that bass trombones shouldn't have reversed tuning slides.
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ttf_harrison.t.reed
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Conn bass trombone tuning slides
If it's just that the tuning slide goes over the leg, rather than into it, I don't really know, an advantage would be that oil won't touch the slide grease when you drop it into the valve.
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ttf_Pieter
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Conn bass trombone tuning slides
With a standard tuning slide, the bore size increases as it goes into the tuning slide, then decreases again after the tuning slide.
With a reverse tuning slide, there are only bore increases, not a decrease.
Now if and how this changes the sound - who knows
With a reverse tuning slide, there are only bore increases, not a decrease.
Now if and how this changes the sound - who knows
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ttf_Pieter
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Conn bass trombone tuning slides
With a standard tuning slide, the bore size increases as it goes into the tuning slide, then decreases again after the tuning slide.
With a reverse tuning slide, there are only bore increases, not a decrease.
Now if and how this changes the sound - who knows
With a reverse tuning slide, there are only bore increases, not a decrease.
Now if and how this changes the sound - who knows