Trombone Mute Variable Cork Thickness Solution, Seeking Input

[NathanSobieralski]

Hello Trombonists!

I am posting this under Modifications since this solution would ultimately require modification of a trombone mute. If this should be moved feel free to do so.

Below is a paper I wrote supporting my removable cork invention. Much of the extant research concerning the acoustic effects of inserting a mute into a brass instrument discusses the trombone and trombone mute, however, I have not heard much from trombonists on the matter especially as it would pertain to real-world situations. I could make adapters that the user would install onto the trombone mute so that any mute could accept my removable corks, but I am curious about how many would find this to be interesting or useful. I welcome your input.

https://s-mute.com/pages/research

[muschem]

Enthusiastic amateur, here (hopefully context helps in weighing responses). I would find this useful, and I'd be interested in retrofitting other mutes with your removable corks. I've experimented a bit in replacing fixed corks on a couple mutes with hook and loop strips for adjusting insertion depth, and I like your system better - it feels more stable and consistent once set.

What form would the adapters take? Would the adapter be a permanent modification or reversible? What level of effort would installation require?

[AtomicClock]

I have all the mutes I'll ever need. But as a younger trombonist, I was afraid to do any filing (a one-way operation). I would have embraced a system like this.

[ghmerrill]

... I was afraid to do any filing (a one-way operation). ...

Not if you're willing to embark on an approach using potentially multiple layers of duct tape strips (which also solves some problems with squeaky mute insertion syndrome). But I'm strongly in favor of this new technology being retrofitted to existing mutes.

[harrisonreed]

I have all the mutes I'll ever need. But as a younger trombonist, I was afraid to do any filing (a one-way operation). I would have embraced a system like this.

You gotta shave them corks down though! Does "today you" do it, at least?

[BGuttman]

I have all the mutes I'll ever need. But as a younger trombonist, I was afraid to do any filing (a one-way operation). I would have embraced a system like this.

You gotta shave them corks down though! Does "today you" do it, at least?

One of the problems for beginners and casual amateurs is not knowing what we are aiming for when shaving corks. Some is obvious, like a cup mute that has an inch clearance to the bell rim, but what other factors affect how much to shave corks?

[harrisonreed]

The things I've been able to get with shaving corks down:

1. On any mute, more notes speaking, especially from Ab down to low E (no valve). Or speaking with the valve, below the staff, but this is usually harder to get and riskier as far as running out of cork.

2. On any mute, getting the mute to play reasonably in tune, so you don't go way sharp or are suddenly flat when you put it in.

3. Especially on a straight metal mute, getting it to have a more piercing sound.

[Posaunus]

I'm very pleased (and impressed) with the replaceable cork system on my new (blue) Salt Shaker mute. It really works!

I would like to see designs for retrofittable kits for modifying existing trombone mutes - probably must useful for cup mutes.

[AtomicClock]

You gotta shave them corks down though! Does "today you" do it, at least?

I shaved my straights. Thrilled with the sound (especially the Tom Crown copper bottom). Didn't shave my cups, but they're adjustable (Wick). And anyway, there's no such thing as a good sounding cup mute. I use Harmon only once in a blue moon, and they're outside the scope of the invention anyway.

[harrisonreed]

And anyway, there's no such thing as a good sounding cup mute.

There is! The Ullvén triple straight plate mute is a fantastic sounding cup mute.

[OneTon]

Your idea is good. A simple kit that could be offered for repair, replacement, or modifications would be of use. The simpler it is and “one size is applicable to all” or a few ranges would be better. The path to success is to package the cork adapters and mutes up, and take them to NAMM. Get distributors, educators, and stores integrated in stocking and selling them. I would choose your proposal over current cork offerings. I have separate mutes for small and medium, large tenor, and bass trombones. Once I get them filed, I leave them alone. It seems that some people in this site may be pickier than I am about mutes. FYI, the mutes are Jo-Ral, Alessi LeBlanc, and Beversdorf. Nobody ever bugged me much except one conductor that didn’t want me to hold the cup mute in the bass trombone bell. I guess I would buy your kit and attempt to rectify that situation. The cup mute falls out of the bass trombone bell.

[NathanSobieralski]

Thank you all for your valuable insight and discussion, please continue.

I've finished the cad work on a prototype and will likely make some soon. These will be individual rail sections that you would affix to the outside of the mute, possibly separate sizes for wide or narrow mutes.

I think the most economical way forward with the prototype phase is to offer these free of charge to Trombonechat members who have ordered a mute from me and are interested. This is due in part to the fact that those of you who have a salt shaker mute already have a number of cork thicknesses available to you.

Ill post some pics here as I finish the prototypes. In the long run, I envision this conversion kit to cost between $5- $10, plus the cost of a cork set. If you have one cork set you can swap corks around to any mute with the rails installed.

If you fit the criteria outlined above please message me through trombonechat so I can better keep track of things. I don't plan to advertise this pilot program elsewhere to keep it manageable.

[CalgaryTbone]

The Morningstar mutes have neoprene "corks" that have velcro on the underside of the corks and more velcro on the body of the mute. You can adjust the fit by moving the corks up or down. This fixes any fit issues, and can adjust the response and ability to play lower notes. Finding the 'sweet spot" for the corks made it easy to play all the way down into pedals for mine.

Jim Scott

[NathanSobieralski]

You gotta shave them corks down though! Does "today you" do it, at least?

One of the problems for beginners and casual amateurs is not knowing what we are aiming for when shaving corks. Some is obvious, like a cup mute that has an inch clearance to the bell rim, but what other factors affect how much to shave corks?

I think harrisonreed covered this very well. There are technical acoustic reasons behind some of these issues, but we don't need to worry about that so much. What I am aiming at is a solution that allows you to make these adjustments in the traditional way without needing to file/shave or add cork to the mute.

Thank you to all who have messaged me. I will leave this pilot program open for 2 weeks from today 3/25, If you know of someone who may be interested please pass it along.

[ghmerrill]

What I am aiming at is a solution that allows you to make these adjustments in the traditional way without needing to file/shave or add cork to the mute.

A problem (surely for anyone?) with cork shaving is "going too far". How do you know that you've gone too far until ... well ... you've gone too far? In addition, I have only one bass trombone and one little tenor, so once I get a mute set up, then it's set. I don't even have to think about moving the mute among different horns (with different dimensions in the bells, etc.). So I have no idea what people do about that. But it seems to me that if you shave corks to be perfect on one horn, that may or may not work on another you'd want to use the mute on. (?)

This system appears to solve those problems. I ordered a Salt Shaker mute just before this discussion hit the screen (anticipating using it as a bucket mute for a jazz band I'm being recruited into), and I'm really looking forward to playing with it (in both senses of "playing with" ). If I didn't have my other mutes already set up for my one horn, I'd also be looking for the add-on kit.

[NathanSobieralski]

Hey Gary,

Thanks for the order!

It certainly is a problem and you hit the nail on the head. Once configured for one horn the mute may not be suitable for another, and if you go too far you are back to square one. I always found the tradition of "filing the corks" archaic and imprecise, hence the invention. My hope is to usher in its adoption among the wider brass-playing community.

Unless you object I will put you down for a conversion kit anyway (it's free for you since you ordered a salt shaker). Maybe someday you will stumble onto a straight mute that's missing corks!

A problem (surely for anyone?) with cork shaving is "going too far". How do you know that you've gone too far until ... well ... you've gone too far? In addition, I have only one bass trombone and one little tenor, so once I get a mute set up, then it's set. I don't even have to think about moving the mute among different horns (with different dimensions in the bells, etc.). So I have no idea what people do about that. But it seems to me that if you shave corks to be perfect on one horn, that may or may not work on another you'd want to use the mute on. (?)

This system appears to solve those problems. I ordered a Salt Shaker mute just before this discussion hit the screen (anticipating using it as a bucket mute for a jazz band I'm being recruited into), and I'm really looking forward to playing with it (in both senses of "playing with" ). If I didn't have my other mutes already set up for my one horn, I'd also be looking for the add-on kit.

[ghmerrill]

Unless you object I will put you down for a conversion kit anyway (it's free for you since you ordered a salt shaker). Maybe someday you will stumble onto a straight mute that's missing corks!

Sure. Thanks. It might be useful for fitting my small H&B fiber mute to my bass bell -- which works better on my horn than the much larger "bass" mute, and I like to use it on occasion because it's much better at bouncing off hard surfaces you may drop it on than the DW aluminum mute.

[vetsurginc]

And anyway, there's no such thing as a good sounding cup mute.

There is! The Ullvén triple straight plate mute is a fantastic sounding cup mute.

Sold out for the moment.

[hyperbolica]

I think if you look at this as not just an adjustable system, but also a replaceable cork system, you can open up more use cases and customers.

And if you could come up with a chart of a lot of popular trombone models showing bell/throat size vs how to place the corks on the mute, that would be a huge benefit.

[ghmerrill]

And if you could come up with a chart of a lot of popular trombone models showing bell/throat size vs how to place the corks on the mute, that would be a huge benefit.

Great idea. The easiest way might be to provide a simple form on a web page for people to report their bells and placements (maybe along with some directions for standardizing the measurement method) and then generate the chart from that. A kind of mute placement epidemiology.

[NathanSobieralski]

I really like the idea of making a "cork fit" database. I'll put some thought into how that should materialize and make a separate thread on it.

For this project, you all could help me immensely by measuring the mutes you have on hand. It would be best to have a micrometer available, but a close estimate with a tape measure is also fine. If you find a particular mute has been measured already feel free to take your own measurements and add it. The more the better.

What I need is the diameter of the mute in front and behind the corks that are installed on the mute, as well as the length of the corks. You can enter this data in the Google sheet linked below.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing

Thanks all.

[ithinknot]

Wouldn't you need to know the length of the currently installed corks too? Otherwise, those diameters are 5mm from.... somewhere?

[SimmonsTrombone]

With regard to the cork fit chart, you might look at the massive development chart for ideas. Film photographers input their development information for various film and developer combinations.
https://www.digitaltruth.com/devchart.php?mobile

[harrisonreed]

Wouldn't you need to know the length of the currently installed corks too? Otherwise, those diameters are 5mm from.... somewhere?

signal-2024-03-27-08-37-25-001.gif

[NathanSobieralski]

Wouldn't you need to know the length of the currently installed corks too? Otherwise, those diameters are 5mm from.... somewhere?

Thanks for noticing that! I've added a field for that measurement. The point of this is not for absolute precision, only to determine sizing that would reasonably fit a large variety of mutes. I will need the length between measurements.

I've gone ahead and removed the 5mm in front and behind, if I can get diameter measurements at the front and back of the corks, plus the length of the corks I will have the info I need.

[AtomicClock]

...I will have the info I need.

The beauty of trigonometry!

[NathanSobieralski]

...I will have the info I need.

The beauty of trigonometry!

Indeed! It was a silly omission, but in my defense, I was distracted by other mute-related things!

[harrisonreed]

Will the attachment system for the rails work on a curved mute, like the Tom Crown?

[NathanSobieralski]

Will the attachment system for the rails work on a curved mute, like the Tom Crown?

It depends on how pronounced the curve is, and also somewhat on the adhesive that's used. It's my hope to make these adapters in a few sizes/profiles that can fit a large number of mutes.

[NathanSobieralski]

Hey everyone,

Here is a draft adapter rail. The kit would include three of these that the end user would adhere to the mute. One of the three would have the patent number as shown, the others would be blank.

[ithinknot]

Obviously a nice idea when preinstalled, like on the Salt Shaker. In a lot of cases, though, aren't the people sufficiently confident/competent to remove their existing corks and install the adapters probably the sort of people who don't completely object to filing their corks anyway?

I'm not arguing the advantages re experimentation, being able to "overshoot" conveniently to find the sweet spot, and use on different instruments ...just something to think about in terms of marketing. Maybe you need a fairly aggressive multiple discount, with the suggestion that you can bring all your regular mutes to a tech and have them converted. And you probably need to supply the specific adhesive (though maybe not for international shipping); people often have some very odd ideas about how glues work, and "the system" as a whole will get blamed when something falls off.

[ghmerrill]

The world of modern adhesives is a marvelous place to live. I would imagine a "peel & stick" approach to the adhesive would be optimal and avoid any issues with "glues". I think the bigger problem here is not selecting too strong an adhesive so that the things could be removed without too much drama. I speak from experience, having just last night removed some peel & stick stuff from my bass trombone that required more time and effort than I'd anticipated. For these cases a "moderately strong" adhesive would probably be best. The peel & stick adhesives used on wall hangers and Velcro provide some good models.

[NathanSobieralski]

These are all great observations, thank you. I agree those who would be competent to install this system would also likely be those who could adjust the mute in the traditional way. I think the advantages are in the predictability of adjustment, the ability to reverse course when you find the mute has been moved too far in either direction, and the ability to swap out corks for various bell sizes. I plan to experiment with double-stick and epoxy-based adhesives. I have several 3M double-stick products on hand for testing.

As far as cost goes, in their simplest form, I envision these sets costing very little, in the $5-$10 range.

[AtomicClock]

Based on the above photo, I estimate the adapter is about 6 mm thick. That's already thicker than some of my corks. Is my estimate off?

[NathanSobieralski]

Based on the above photo, I estimate the adapter is about 6 mm thick. That's already thicker than some of my corks. Is my estimate off?

With the 0.5 cork installed the cork face will be about 5mm above the mute body.

I may be able to shave a half millimeter off the flange, just need to balance strength vs thickness. Once I make some prototypes I'll know how far I can push it.

[ithinknot]

With the 0.5 cork installed the cork face will be about 5mm above the mute body.

Yup, that's going to be a problem. This might be why others went down the velcro route.

If you're choosing the body dimensions, no prob, but once you're dealing with generic tenor mutes on a tight bell throat like a 3B, I'm sure I've filed corks closer to 4mm. I'm away from home right now so can't give you any measurements. (For using a trumpet straight as a pixie, I think I might have fitted 3mm cork sheet, though admittedly that's an exception of sorts...)

[AtomicClock]

With the 0.5 cork installed the cork face will be about 5mm above the mute body.

On the 4 mutes I care about (haphazardly tuned, as I mentioned above), 5 mm is right on the edge. My cork thicknesses are (in mm):
Tom Crown straight (tenor): 4.8, 4.6, 5.0
Tom Crown straight (bass): 4.8, 5.0, 4.0
Denis Wick cup (tenor): 3.6, 3.9, 3.2
Denis Wick cup (bass): 5.8, 6.8, 6.3

And of course, my corks will compress a little when in use; unlike your plastic.

[NathanSobieralski]

Yup, that's going to be a problem. This might be why others went down the velcro route.

If you're choosing the body dimensions, no prob, but once you're dealing with generic tenor mutes on a tight bell throat like a 3B, I'm sure I've filed corks closer to 4mm. I'm away from home right now so can't give you any measurements. (For using a trumpet straight as a pixie, I think I might have fitted 3mm cork sheet, though admittedly that's an exception of sorts...)

Velcro has its own set of issues, but yes this will not be a solution for all use cases. Part of the reason I am developing this product this way is to flesh out these issues before investing significant resources in it. The input is greatly appreciated.

[NathanSobieralski]

Looks like I need to shoot for 4mm or slightly under, ill see how far I can push it.

[AtomicClock]

As another point of reference, fresh Humes and Berg replacement corks start out at 3/16" (4.8mm) before filing.

https://www.hickeys.com/music/brass/tro ... -mutes.php

[AtomicClock]

I don't use mutes a lot. But I count a lot of rests, and have to daydream about something... I always thought that those quick-draw mute holders made a lot of sense, but if I ever needed to use one, I'd have to shave the "bulb" end of the corks, to make a ramp so it wouldn't get caught on the ring. You might consider building a slope into your design.

[muschem]

I don't use mutes a lot. But I count a lot of rests, and have to daydream about something... I always thought that those quick-draw mute holders made a lot of sense, but if I ever needed to use one, I'd have to shave the "bulb" end of the corks, to make a ramp so it wouldn't get caught on the ring. You might consider building a slope into your design.

I use one of those mute holders. That never occurred to me, but it sounds like a great idea.

[hyperbolica]

I added some measurements to your file, bass and tenor.

[AtomicClock]

I added some measurements to your file, bass and tenor.

You and I disagree on which measurement is above, and which is below!

[hyperbolica]

I added some measurements to your file, bass and tenor.

You and I disagree on which measurement is above, and which is below!

No, I just got the first one backwards somehow. Smaller measurement is at the top, larger is at the bottom.

[NathanSobieralski]

Hello everyone,

I've had some time to work on this project. Below you will see some real-world dimensions I can achieve. The 4mm example is actually a "size 0" cork with a super thin cork material. The 4.95mm example is size 0.5 with the standard cork material. I plan to supply you with a set of size 0 corks with your adapter sets for those participating in the trial.

Some of you have remarked that you need thinner than 4mm, and while I may be able to shave off an additional .2mm or so, 3.8-4mm seems to be about the practical limit. Also below you will find a pic of generally how the system will look installed on a mute. It seems based on the feedback you have provided, this system may work for some mutes/applications and not others. Feel free to discuss further if you like.