Shires Q Series Evolution?

[OldNobody]

I have a Shires Q30YR that I bought in the summer of 2017. There is no fancy engraving on the bell--just a simple, but nice, "Shires" and "Q Series" something or other. (I'm not looking at it now.)

At the time of Shires announcement of the Q Series (August 31, 2016), they said:

"...S.E. Shires fabricates the Q parts in Hopedale, Massachusetts, USA, then ships the parts to the Eastman factory in China where they are assembled, and then the instrument is sent back to Shires. The final finishes, quality checks and play-tests are then done in Hopedale before shipping to dealers..."

By at least sometime in 2018, possibly earlier, Shires was engraving the Q Series bells with a more elaborate "maker's mark." Ben Griffin had this to say on TTF in September 2017:

"The new Q is a marriage of these previous ideas. Shires has final say on the design and quality. It is built to our standards and we quality check and do final tweaking on every horn. There are many Eastman parts on the instrument, again, built to our standards and specifications. We make the machined parts and send them for assembly. We have sent and continue to regularly send our technicians to Eastman factories to inspect processes and teach techniques. They have enthusiastically adopted our suggestions and we've seen a tremendous jump in quality of what arrives at our shop." [My emphasis]

When I read these two quotes, the first (the announcement) seems to suggest (to me) that the bells, tuning slides, valve sections, handslide tubes, crooks, etc. were originally being made in MA, and assembly was the only part of production handled by Eastman. The second quote (by Ben G.) doesn't seem to quite fit with my understanding of the announcement, as "There are many Eastman parts on the instrument...," and "We make the machined parts."

A few questions:

1) What parts are "machined"--the ones Ben G refers to as being made by Shires in 9/2017? (I cannot decide whether a bell, for example, would be considered a machined part. I tend to think not, as I have something like a CNC machine in my head--something that is programmed, and no real hands-on work is happening. But, I'm ignorant on the subject, so I'm asking.)

2) Did the number of different parts made by Eastman increase between the Q Series introduction in August 2016 and Ben G's post in September 2017?

3) When did the Q Series begin getting the elaborate maker's mark?

4) Did the maker's mark coincide with a milestone, such as the movement of full production to Eastman, or other?

5) Has the mix of parts production and assembly between MA and Eastman evolved since the initial announcement, and since Ben G's 9/2017 post, and how? (I think I have gleaned from reading here at TC that the Q Series is only QC'd in MA now, but I'm not certain my facts are straight.)

6) If my Q30 does not have the elaborate maker's mark, then what information can I glean from its absence?

Louis

[TubaDavey]

I bought my Q30 in May 2018, and the bell has the full floral engraving. That would put the span within almost 9-12 months when they switched to the makers' mark.

[Dennis]

Everything on a trombone is either drawn, formed from sheet brass, or machined. So, what parts of a trombone are machined?

• Ferrules
  Valve casings
  Valve cores
  Rotor stop arms
  Braces
  Cork barrels and associated parts

It's possible that braces could be rod stock, but I'd be surprised if rod stock has sufficiently tight tolerances to be used without turning to diameter.

All of the tubing is drawn, straightened, and bent to shape, or in a very few cases (seamed leadpipes and tuning slides) formed from sheet stock and then bent (if necessary). Bells are formed from sheet stock, but bells are where a lot of the magic happens and bell spinning is definitely a highly skilled occupation.

Production of the Q series horns is now entirely at Eastman's facilities in China, and the quality control is in Pomona rather than Hopewell. Aidan (Burgerbob) and some others say they can tell the difference between Q parts and Custom parts. Shires doesn't try to hide Q components: they are all clearly marked so you can definitely tell by looking. Can you tell by playing? I don't know. Maybe I could tell if I played a Custom side-by-side with a nominally identical Q. I don't know.

Shires used to be a straight custom shop: they made bespoke trumpets and trombones, even as they tried to become a large-scale manufacturer. Now they are a manufacturer with production schedules and standard models. If you want a standard model you can have one by its availability on their current production schedule. If you want something different you have to wait until the next opening in their production schedule.

Weird stuff disrupts production processes. Back in the post-war period, Sigurd Rascher (the saxophonist) asked Buescher to make him a keyless alto saxophone. (He wanted to prove to everyone that the overtone series worked on saxes just like it works on other winds.) Buescher agreed--Rascher was their artist, after all. They produced two of them for him, and their plant managers said, "Never again," because it was so disruptive. (Incidentally, the overtone series works on keyless saxes just like it does on a keyless/valveless bugle. Big surprise, right?)

I purchased a new Q36YR last December, along with a Custom bell. (A BI7RGLW, a lightweight red brass tail and gold brass flare. I still haven't played the Q bell. I'm told that the equivalent Custom bell is a BII7YM.) I thought seriously about it, and I didn't want to wait 14- 18 months for Hopewell to get around to making an in-line rotary valve set to pair with that bell and bog-standard tuning and hand slides. If you want a straight .562 yellow brass slide with nickel crook I know that Q slide and Custom slide cannot be distinguished if both are properly set up. I know this because my large tenor is a pre-Eastman Shires Custom. Both slides are properly set up by very good techs. There just isn't much difference at all in the action.

It's a great horn and I saved about $1500 and a year to a year and a half.

[OldNobody]

Thanks for the replies.

Dennis,
Thank you for the thorough explanation and personal thoughts. It seems that you may have read something into my post that isn't there, that being any opinions about the quality--or changes in quality--of the Q Series through time. I like mine, and I have no opinion(s) on the rest. I simply wanted to clear up when the Q Series went through various changes, because there are conflicting statements on this forum and elsewhere. I also want to know where mine fits, exactly.

Just the other day, I was told on this forum, regarding my early 2017 Q30, "The parts for Q series instruments were never made in MA." Just one example of many.

So far, what I've gleaned is that A) the first Q iteration was (almost?) entirely made in MA and assembled at Eastman, with final QC and any needed adjustments coming in MA; B) at some point, the drawing and forming of parts went to Eastman, apparently between 8/2016 and 9/2017, when Ben G said MA was making the machined parts; C) at some point all production of all parts moved to Eastman; D) at some point, the "elaborate" bell engraving was added--prior to May 2018, per TubaDavey; and E) at some point, QC went from MA to CA. I may not have these in proper order.

Realizing that some of these transitions took place over time, but that at some date certain each transition was complete.

One curiosity to me is about the bell engraving. My guess would be that the more elaborate engraving was added at the point when the full production transition was complete, perhaps for two reasons: 1) Shires was then saving money vis-a-vis transition production and could afford to "give back" by adding the engraving; and 2) the engraving marks the modern Q Series in its final intended production format, separating it from the pre-engraving, transition horns. That's just a guess.

Anymore information out there? I'm simply looking for the facts and don't care if I'm wrong in my guessing.

I'm 99% sure that Shires could tell me everything about my horn based on the serial number, but I'm looking for other possible sources of info that might be apparent on the horn, itself, or by the date. Information we could all use to clear up conflicting statements out there.

[OldNobody]

One further thought...

Ben G, in the same post from which I quoted earlier, also mentioned that Q products out of Eastman had improved over time--as of 9/2017.

My early 2017 Q30 has a couple of places where the solder welds are not clean, in that the solder is obvious and a little messy. I assume that, if an improper solder joint was causing abnormal stress, Shires QC would have corrected the problem, and, perhaps, that is what I am seeing. I would think this kind of thing would be a primary check of the assembly.

I've read of people having their horns "de-stressed," and it made me wonder.

Louis

[harrisonreed]

What does the Q actually stand for though?

[Burgerbob]

What does the Q actually stand for though?

Quantity

[harrisonreed]

For real tho?

I thought maybe it stood for "Qian Ni"

[Burgerbob]

Oh I have no idea. I assume it's just a cool letter. Xeno trombones aren't aliens, Xeno just sounds neat

[OldNobody]

Thanks for the useful input, guys. I'll have to say that I've come across you guys in many threads on many subjects, and I've never found your brand of arrogant humor funny or interesting. Glad to provide another thread where you can entertain yourselves, though.

Louis

[walldaja]

I have a Q that dates to 2014 and it has the floral engraving on the bell. You can add that to your data base.

[Kbiggs]

IMG_0251.jpeg

[harrisonreed]

Thanks for the useful input, guys. I'll have to say that I've come across you guys in many threads on many subjects, and I've never found your brand of arrogant humor funny or interesting. Glad to provide another thread where you can entertain yourselves, though.

Louis

Qian Ni is the CEO of Eastman, and therefore Shires, FWIW. I wasn't trying to be arrogant.

[SamBTbrn]

Quan Ni is the CEO of Eastman, and therefore Shires.
[/quote]

That might track actually. Y-fort is named after the director Yang Fan. So the Q might be for Qian.

As for the subject topic, I'm afraid that it might be a bit hard to find visual elements on the instruments themselves that plot the various changes in the production and company structure. The big things such as bell engraving are easy markers, but on small parts that would be very difficult.

If you really want to know, then perhaps this is indeed a detailed question for the Eastman/Shires team. They may be able to supply you with serial number batches that line up with the differnt periods you are looking to define. From there I imagine it would be possible to make an visual database of what the differences are.

I'm not sure any one person outside of the company would be able to give you the detailed answer you are looking for.

Best of luck with your information search!

Best
Sam

[Dennis]

Thanks for the replies.

Dennis,
Thank you for the thorough explanation and personal thoughts. It seems that you may have read something into my post that isn't there, that being any opinions about the quality--or changes in quality--of the Q Series through time. I like mine, and I have no opinion(s) on the rest. I simply wanted to clear up when the Q Series went through various changes, because there are conflicting statements on this forum and elsewhere. I also want to know where mine fits, exactly.

<SNIP>

I'm 99% sure that Shires could tell me everything about my horn based on the serial number, but I'm looking for other possible sources of info that might be apparent on the horn, itself, or by the date. Information we could all use to clear up conflicting statements out there.

Louis,

No, I wasn't reading any opinions about quality into your post. I was just trying to note pre-emptively that some people do hold that there is a difference in quality between Q series and Custom series instruments.

Why don't you inquire about your instrument with Shires.

Incidentally, I'm pretty sure that all the Shires engraving (in Hopewell and China) is done with a computer controlled diamond stylus. Adding engraving to the Q instruments appears to have been a matter of putting in a new (relatively) inexpensive machine.

[OldNobody]

I have a Q that dates to 2014 and it has the floral engraving on the bell. You can add that to your data base.

I noticed your 2014 Q a while back in my reading, hence I made sure to cite the August 31, 2016 Shires announcement in dating the Q Series I was discussing. I have no idea how yours fits. Anyone?

Qian Ni is the CEO of Eastman, and therefore Shires, FWIW. I wasn't trying to be arrogant.

I apologize for my jump to conclusion. I guess BB's reply made it seem like you guys were making fun of the instrument being discussed. I initially thought your question was tangential at best, in a thread-derailing sort of way. Who knows where these brand names come from? If anyone happens to know why Shires chose "Q," then I would be interested.

...If you really want to know, then perhaps this is indeed a detailed question for the Eastman/Shires team. They may be able to supply you with serial number batches that line up with the differnt periods you are looking to define. From there I imagine it would be possible to make an visual database of what the differences are.

I'm not sure any one person outside of the company would be able to give you the detailed answer you are looking for.

Best of luck with your information search!

Best
Sam

Thanks for the input, Sam. A serial number database would be the most straightforward way of cataloging the information. I suspect I would be limited to my own horn with any inquiry to Shires. It would have to be a large group effort. I've seen SN lists with respect to various guitars.

And, really, I'm not trying to find out where every part on my instrument was made. I was just wondering if, for example, we could refer to horns with the simple engraving one way, and horns with the elaborate engraving in another way that is meaningful beyond the engraving itself. Or, if there was a date when we could say, "This horn was produced entirely at the Eastman facility," or "This horn is an early transition horn," etc.

It doesn't have to be too heavy on the specifics of all the parts transitions. I just mentioned those to see if anyone had information about those time periods--out of curiosity. If someone with authority on the subject could shed light on some aspects of the transition--such as what Ben G wrote on 9/1/2017--then some of the misinformation that side tracks us could be resolved.

Louis,

No, I wasn't reading any opinions about quality into your post. I was just trying to note pre-emptively that some people do hold that there is a difference in quality between Q series and Custom series instruments.

Why don't you inquire about your instrument with Shires.

Incidentally, I'm pretty sure that all the Shires engraving (in Hopewell and China) is done with a computer controlled diamond stylus. Adding engraving to the Q instruments appears to have been a matter of putting in a new (relatively) inexpensive machine.

Understood. I probably will call Shires about my trombone one day. And, yes, I understand the engraving has become a simple machine programming exercise these days, due to the brilliance of many who've come before. So, the average cost per horn is probably not much. But, I suspect there are many buyers and potential buyers for whom the engraving carries non-trivial value.

Best to all,
Louis

[Burgerbob]

I have a Q that dates to 2014 and it has the floral engraving on the bell. You can add that to your data base.

I have to call this into question as well... Eastman only bought Shires in May 2014. I don't think they had time to set up production in China for much of anything in the span of 7 months. The earliest ones I remember seeing were at 2017 ITF.

[harrisonreed]

Does the bell say Q, or is it a shires engraved custom bell mounted on Q hardware?

[SamBTbrn]

Hey Louis,

I think I understand what your getting at.
I feel as it is, unfortunately or not, that any trombone branded Qshires will be considered to be the same as any other Qshires regardless of which point in the Eastman merger it was built.

As you noted, engraved / non engraved would be the only factor I could see making a difference, and that difference would be purely from an aesthetic standpoint when it comes to re-selling the instrument. It's would be a tough sell to say that a non-engraved bell is better or not, since shires have been engraving the horns the same way since i can remember. (I bought my shires in 2009)

If it is however a combination of Q shires and Custom shires parts, then you're perhaps into a different discussion. (Something something ship of Theseus). But as shires purposely decided they would be two seperate lines, I don't think most people will be drawing lines within the Qseries itself saying that one years batch is beter than another.

The authoritative figure that you are searching for, as most of us have suggested, can only be Shires. I am sure they would be happy to answer questions that are not just related to your specific instrument. That is the only way I'm afraid, to clear up any "misinformation" on the topic.

Best of luck,
Sam

[walldaja]

This is what Shires sent in response to asking when my Q was built.

Hi David,
Thank you so much for reaching out, we’re so glad to hear that you love the horn! The number on the tenon is the serial number and it looks like your horn was built before we kept digital records, but based on some of the serial numbers we know, most likely your horn was built around 2013 or 2014.
All the best,

The S. E. Shires Sales Team
S. E. Shires Instruments
508-634-6805
www.seshires.com

[Burgerbob]

Where's the serial? It sounds like a custom part, perhaps with a q bell.

[sungfw]

I have a Q that dates to 2014 and it has the floral engraving on the bell. You can add that to your data base.

I have to call this into question as well... Eastman only bought Shires in May 2014. I don't think they had time to set up production in China for much of anything in the span of 7 months. The earliest ones I remember seeing were at 2017 ITF.

For what it's worth, given the previous collaboration between Eastman and Shires (touted on front and center on the Shires website in the runup to the 2008 Beijing Olympics) on the "Andreas Eastman" line of instruments (as I've noted before, I purchased an Andreas Eastman Shires British style Baritone on the strength of Shires involvement in the design and QC); that Eastman bought Shires out of bankruptcy; that Shires had, for some time preceding the takeover, been only been kept afloat by borrowing from factoring lenders at extortionate interest rates (reportedly 20-40%); and [url=https://www.telegram.com/story/news/loc ... 410057007/]Eastman was already a creditorurl], if is far from inconceivable that Eastman was in negotiations to purchase Shires and had already been gearing up for a takeover well before the purchase transpired.

All that aside, given a modest inventory of parts from which to assemble horns, or Q horns nearing completion or already in the pipeline, at the time of the takeover, and a floral engraved bell dating to 2014 is far from improbable, much less impossible.

[Bonferroni]

I find their brand of humor quite funny and interesting. They’re not just entertaining themselves. It’s one of the reasons I enjoy this forum. Thanks guys!

[mcphatty00]

As someone who has never tried a "Q", how are they compared to the stuff Steve did before? My stuff all dates back to the mid-2000s.

[walldaja]

Burgerbob,

S/N is 060xx. I just play it. Tuning slide is marked Q as is the bell.

[JKBone85]

For real tho?

I thought maybe it stood for "Qian Ni"

This is correct. Our sister companies also offer a Q Series line. Qian's idea has been to provide each of the companies with support to maintain the individual brand, while creating a mixed lineup of largely Eastman made products under the watchful eyes of each brand. This in turn makes the Eastman products better, and helps the individual brands expand their offerings. The crossing over of the intellectual property is a huge benefit to everyone involved. For the trombone world this means yes, the vast majority of the Q Series trombones are now produced at the Shires China factory, and arrive in Pomona where a few Shires Pomona employees QC them. Shires Holliston is purely the Custom line, showroom, R&D, and Willson distribution. We also do work for each other. Our machine shop here in Holliston machines parts for Shires Customs, Shires Q's (trumpets, trombones, and euphoniums), Haynes, Backun and Willson (yes, that rotor too). Machined parts are CNC parts. Basically, any part of the horn that you really couldn't consider a tube, is machined.

[Posaunus]

For real tho?

I thought maybe it stood for "Qian Ni"

This is correct. Our sister companies also offer a Q Series line. Qian's idea has been to provide each of the companies with support to maintain the individual brand, while creating a mixed lineup of largely Eastman made products under the watchful eyes of each brand. This in turn makes the Eastman products better, and helps the individual brands expand their offerings. The crossing over of the intellectual property is a huge benefit to everyone involved. For the trombone world this means yes, the vast majority of the Q Series trombones are now produced at the Shires China factory, and arrive in Pomona where a few Shires Pomona employees QC them. Shires Holliston is purely the Custom line, showroom, R&D, and Willson distribution. We also do work for each other. Our machine shop here in Holliston machines parts for Shires Customs, Shires Q's (trumpets, trombones, and euphoniums), Haynes, Backun and Willson (yes, that rotor too). Machined parts are CNC parts. Basically, any part of the horn that you really couldn't consider a tube, is machined.

Thanks, Josh for the informed clarification. So much better than blind speculation!