Follow up to "WTB budget Bass Trombone"

[kdsstg]

Hey everyone. Awhile back I asked about getting an inexpensive bass trombone for a hobbyist. There was great feedback and I appreciate everyone's comments. I figured I'd follow up with what I went with and how I like it.

I had originally set my price point too low. I wanted an independent horn, and there aren't any reasonable options under under $1200 and any used mainstream brand is closer to 2k - more than double my original budget. Sure, there are some Chinese knock offs for less, but those are knockoffs of mid-level horns and I couldn't find anyone saying anything good about them. I did find a decent deal on a used Dillon bass trombone, but after shipping, the price wasn't far off of a new Mack Brass. I talked to Dillon and they said they had a hard time keeping/getting parts. Mack comes with a 14 day trial and free parts for life and they keep parts on hand. And, I have a Mack euphonium that plays really well and I've been happy with it.

So, I took a chance and went with the Mack. They were great to work with and had new inventory showing up within a couple weeks.

My take on the horn, as a hobbyist who has only ever played a straight tenor bone, euphonium and 3/4 tuba:

- build quality seems good. I didn't notice any bad solders or blemishes. Maybe a little swirling in the finish of the bell. The nut for attaching the bell does take a little extra umph to get it stable.
- Slide action is really good.
- Mack adjusted the 2nd trigger from the default angle to being a little more ergonomic. I like the adjustability of the second trigger paddle.
- It has a ring for the left index finger which helps with grip, but ultimately I needed a brace for my arthritic hands. I went with the neotec which is adequate, but may explore some others down the line.
- Not sure what the mouthpiece is (I heard its a bach 1.5 knockoff?) but too small for me regardless. I tried a schilke 58 which was better and kinda familiar since I play a 51D on my euphonium, but ultimately went with a Yeo replica. I may explore a larger/different mouthpiece down the line, but I think I need to stick with what I got for awhile to provide clarity on where my shortcomings are vs the mouthpiece (my guess it's mostly me)
- Sound is solid without triggers, - good tone and response but gets a little pinchy with one or both triggers. I am mostly able to get a satisfactory big band sound on most notes when I reset my embouchure and take a deep breath, so doable, but some notes take more than I've got mid phrase to get the sound I want.
- Valve action is a smooth, maybe a little more noise than I expected. I've never used rotary valves before, so I didn't have anything to compare. However, after testing multiple other horns today (more on that later), the valve noise was on on par with the Bachs I tried and quieter than the Xeno I tried.
- While the physical mechanism seems good, the transition from open to engaged results in a bit of a "thwap" if I am a little lazy on the press. It transitions cleanly when I am more deliberate about a firm press.
- Pedal tones could be better and again, so could I. I struggle with steady pitch and projection a bit at pedal Bb and lower. I am working on my lungs, but I think a higher quality instrument would make this process a little easier.

Today, I was visiting the Seattle area and took some time to visit an instrument store here, since we don't have any pro level instrument stores near me. Some quick notes on some bigger brand horns, noting that I didn't have my Yeo mp and so used their schilke 60. All instruments were gently used and professionally cleaned etc.
- Bach 50b, tried open and closed wrap, rotary and Hagman valves. Open wrap ones open blew easier than the Mack, slightly easier attack on pedals and clearer tones. Hagman had a similar "thwack" sound as my Mack occasionally. My preferred configuration was rotary valves, Open wrap. This is a better instrument than the Mack. The cost difference here, though, makes it hard to justify in my situation.
- Yamaha Xeno, silver finish. Sounded and played nearly identically to the Mack, which is maybe confirmation bias, since I know the Mack is patterned after it. However, the valves were significantly noisier than my Mack. I would prefer my Mack over this horn, cost aside.
- Jupiter XO with Thayer valves. I was thoroughly impressed here with the sound. Pedals came easily and clearly. Tone quality was really nice. Blew freely, projected well. Valves were smooth, though the second was in need of some oil. Slide was good. Of the ones I tried, I liked this one the best.

The Mack slide was better than all of them, but they were stored dry, so I suspect a little extra love beyond the quick lubing I gave them would help there.

Overall, I'm happy enough with my Mack and I'll be keeping it, but I think I have a better understanding of what my limits are vs the horn. I suspect as I improve, I'll have enough control to make it sound good enough. And if not, I have at least one model that I like enough to consider for an upgrade.

Now to find a Rath R9 to try....

Also, thanks to Amanda at The Mighty Quinn Brass and Winds. She was super helpful.

https://www.brassandwinds.com/collectio ... -ascending.

[Matt K]

You might want to have a tech look at your valves and make sure they’re properly aligned. Your description am about that can result from even a slight misalignment.

[kdsstg]

You might want to have a tech look at your valves and make sure they’re properly aligned. Your description am about that can result from even a slight misalignment.

Well, would you look at that. Thanks for the info! I googled what to look for and sure enough - a slight misalignment on the second valve when engaged. I ever-so-carefully trimmed the stopper a tiny bit and now it is square on. Maybe I'm imagining it, but the sound with the second valve engaged has cleared up a bit and I didn't hear the thwap either, granted I only played for a little bit.

Thanks for the advice!

[Matt K]

While you're at it, you might want to experiment with some oils of varying thickness. On some of the instruments with less precision, sometimes a thicker oil helps seal too! On the other hand, it might not help at all.

[kdsstg]

Thanks, I actually did lube up the bearings, linkage and valves with a new types of oil as well. Maybe that was what helped. In any case, a nice improvement. Still have to work on my skills, though

[boneagain]

Thanks, I actually did lube up the bearings, linkage and valves with a new types of oil as well. Maybe that was what helped. In any case, a nice improvement. Still have to work on my skills, though

When you oil do you drop oil:
1) down the bore onto the rotor core
and
2) onto the axle under the valve cap and near the stop arm?

#2 can often benefit from a slightly heavier oil. THIS is the oil that slows the rate of wear on the valve.

#1 is what will help with the seal.

With my Mack Brass I found I needed a light oil, like ultra-pure, on the rotor core. Machining was surprisingly tight. It was a REAL challenge to pull the plate under the valve cap, for instance, when I was doing a complete cleaning. Takes NO corrosion at all to jam the valve!

RE: aligning the valve: remember that the rotor can NOT be misaligned in just one position! (well, it COULD if the machining were complete crap... but that's not the case on the Mack. Matt's recommendation should help whether valve #2 is engaged or not

RE: the thwap: I bet this has NOT gone away. If you look carefully at the Yamaha on which the Mack is based you'll note that Yamaha changed the direction of rotationof the second valve over the years. Mack patterned after the original direction. This has the "webbing" of the core crossing the air path on the way to engaging. The result is annoying enough that Yamaha changed it, but not so annoyign that Yamaha would even consider a recall. Just requires more careful second valve technique.

Thanks for the update on your quest!

[kdsstg]

When you oil do you drop oil:
1) down the bore onto the rotor core
and
2) onto the axle under the valve cap and near the stop arm?

....

RE: aligning the valve: remember that the rotor can NOT be misaligned in just one position! (well, it COULD if the machining were complete crap... but that's not the case on the Mack. Matt's recommendation should help whether valve #2 is engaged or not

RE: the thwap: I bet this has NOT gone away. If you look carefully at the Yamaha on which the Mack is based you'll note that Yamaha changed the direction of rotationof the second valve over the years. Mack patterned after the original direction. This has the "webbing" of the core crossing the air path on the way to engaging. The result is annoying enough that Yamaha changed it, but not so annoyign that Yamaha would even consider a recall. Just requires more careful second valve technique.

Thanks for the update on your quest!

Tom at Mack recommended synthetic valve oil - Blue Juice or Ultra Pure by name. I originally used Blue Juice on the cores through the slide receiver, as this is what I had on hand for my Euphonium. After learning a little about rotary valve maintenance, I realized I needed more that that, so I went ahead and bought the Ultra Pure Valve oil for Pistons and Rotors, as well as the Ultra Pure Light Bearing oil for the axle under the cap, and then the Ultra Pure Linkage oil for the other moving parts. I used these on their respective parts this time around.

Regarding the alignment, I was going off of the right angle marker under the cap, relative to the notch that was in there. When open, it was lined up perfectly, when engaged it was short by a tiny bit. After trimming the bumper for the open position, it now lines up perfectly in both positions. As a rotary valve newb, what does having it aligned by a tech actually do? Something other than adjusting the bumpers?

And good to know about the thwap. Sounds like more practice is in order! Interestingly, the Xeno I tried had it as well. I thought it was a newer one, but maybe not?

[boneagain]

The "witness marks" under the valve case are not always trustworthy
Even when they are, geometry is working against you.
Let's say the axle part is 5mm and the outer diameter of the core is 20mm. A .5mm error reading or adjusting to the witness mark at the axle will be a 2mm misplacement in the bore.

Another way of checking is with a borescope.

Try this part of the thread on "borescope endoscope"
viewtopic.php?p=189479#p189479

It kinda steps you through what you (or a tech) would be looking at inside the valves.

Once you get used to eyeballing the trajectory of the parts inside the bore it makes MUCH more sense than the static pictures!

[kdsstg]

The "witness marks" under the valve case are not always trustworthy
...
Another way of checking is with a borescope.
...

I meant to respond to this earlier to thank you for the suggestion! I finally got around to purchasing an endoscope on Amazon. It was really interesting to see! The alignment wasn't terrible, but I did need to shave a little off the F valve when open and add a little to Gb valve when pressed (which is what I had shaved off previously while following the witness marks ). It seems to blow a little easier, with the jury still out on the "thwap" sound.

As an aside, I also took the scope to my Mack Brass Euphonium and found its valves to be significantly out of alignment. I removed 2 of the 3 felts under the valve cap to fix it. THAT change made a huge difference!

In any case, thanks again for the suggestion!

[WGWTR180]

The "witness marks" under the valve case are not always trustworthy
...
Another way of checking is with a borescope.
...

I meant to respond to this earlier to thank you for the suggestion! I finally got around to purchasing an endoscope on Amazon. It was really interesting to see! The alignment wasn't terrible, but I did need to shave a little off the F valve when open and add a little to Gb valve when pressed (which is what I had shaved off previously while following the witness marks ). It seems to blow a little easier, with the jury still out on the "thwap" sound.

As an aside, I also took the scope to my Mack Brass Euphonium and found its valves to be significantly out of alignment. I removed 2 of the 3 felts under the valve cap to fix it. THAT change made a huge difference!

In any case, thanks again for the suggestion!

Which endoscope did you purchase?

[kdsstg]

I bought this one:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07PBF6DX5?

[WGWTR180]

I bought this one:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07PBF6DX5?

Thank you.

[WGWTR180]

I bought this one:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07PBF6DX5?

I have an iMac. Did you have to download an app for this? Directions are a bit vague.

[kdsstg]

I'm not an Apple user, so I'm not 100% sure. I connected it directly to my Android phone and downloaded an app per the instructions in the box.

On my Windows laptop, it was immediately recognized as a normal webcam. The default "Camera" app worked without issue, I just had to hit the 🗘 button that would normally switch from the front camera to back, and it switched to the endoscope camera. I suspect Mac would be similar. The camera has a usb-c connecter, but comes with a usb-A (the big one) adapter, so should work just fine connection-wise.

[Sesquitone]

Well, would you look at that. Thanks for the info! I googled what to look for and sure enough - a slight misalignment on the second valve when engaged. I ever-so-carefully trimmed the stopper a tiny bit and now it is square on. Maybe I'm imagining it, but the sound with the second valve engaged has cleared up a bit and I didn't hear the thwap either, granted I only played for a little bit.

Thanks for the advice!

This applies to all folks trying to align the stops by 'trimming' the cork (or Neoprene, &c,) with an X-Acto knife (or equivalent)—and then starting over when trimming too much! [After the required amount of cursing!]

In addition to a hex key (or equivalent) for removing the machine bolts holding in the cradle arc, you'll need a fine-toothed hacksaw, a small flat file and a tiny rat-tail file. And some polishing cloth. This is a do-it-yourself project; no need for a professional tech.

(i) remove the cradle arc.
(ii) cut a small 'strip' out of the middle with the hacksaw.
(iii) round-off the sharp edges of each piece with the flat file.
(iv) elongate the holes with the rat-tail file—following a circular path.
(v) reassemble everything with new (full sized) corks (Neoprene, &c.)
(vi) adjust the (now) individually adjustable stops. [Use the witness marks (if accurate)—or other means, if not.] Do not trim!

[You won't need that razor-blade any more; so pack it away.]

The result should look something like the following—as used on the CAIDEX valve (not patented).

You'll note the 'ring' around the individual cradles (as part of the end-cap on the CAIDEX). This is desirable because, with two right-hand-threaded bolts, there is a (remote) possibility that, on the back-stroke, one cradle might tend to loosen up with repeated 'pounding'. The ring (or something equivalent holding things tight) will eliminate this problem. This will require a friendly tech to mock up and solder on.

Precise alignment (of any kind of valve) is of the utmost importance. As has been pointed out, a very slight misalignment can degrade tone quality (or cause wolf tones)—and is probably the most likely culprit of brass instruments' less-than-satisfactory behaviour. But easily fixed!

Good luck. Let me know if you have any questions.

PS By the way, valves (of any kind: rotary, piston, . . .) should never be (metal-on-metal) 'noisy'. If you hear this kind of noise, it needs to be eliminated. On a rotary valve, first check linkage backlash (including within the spring-loaded spatula axle): hold the toggle arm fixed and (lightly) try to operate the linkage. Identify backlash point(s). Fix, if adjustable (do not bind). Replace, if not. Sometimes a little (slightly heavier) oil (like '3-in-1' sewing machine oil) can help out until fixed by a tech. If the linkage is noise-free, check axial end-play of the rotor spindle—you should not be able to move it by hand. The internal (flat) bearing should be 'flush' but (of course) not binding. Ideally, your valve should have an end-play adjustment screw (with a set-screw in the toggle arm to hold the spindle in place) so that this can be done precisely. [Again see the CAIDEX end-play screw (same as on the Willson Rotax). This is an important, often overlooked adjustment. If adjusted correctly, the valve should need only minimal lubrication.] If you still have (metal-on-metal) noise, the rotor needs to be sent for plating and re-lapping.



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