Well, there's another innovation needed: make the doubled slide tubes flexibly mounted so that they adjust to the alignment in use. It may be the rigid mounting that makes them awful.LeTromboniste wrote: ↑Mon Nov 23, 2020 4:59 pmEven staying in close positions, I personally find it much easier with the handle than without. The positions are so far away from each other, I find it needlessly strenuous without a handle. The handle is clumsy at first and took me a while to get used to, but assuming it's a good universal/ball/3-axis joint, I find it improves rather than impedes agility.Burgerbob wrote: ↑Mon Nov 23, 2020 3:24 pm
Well, I'd say there's a reason we don't see widely-used double slides or long slides with handles. They both suck in different ways. My slide would have to be a foot longer with a handle to get 7th (as well as my bell section being radically shorter). And double slides are generally awful. It's a big trade off to play the couple glisses that might come up, instead of being able to play all the written music more easily.
Innovations you'd like to see
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Re: Innovations you'd like to see
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There was a guy that did this... did he call it the jazzbone or something? Had a spring mount on the second inner.baileyman wrote: ↑Tue Nov 24, 2020 6:32 amWell, there's another innovation needed: make the doubled slide tubes flexibly mounted so that they adjust to the alignment in use. It may be the rigid mounting that makes them awful.LeTromboniste wrote: ↑Mon Nov 23, 2020 4:59 pm
Even staying in close positions, I personally find it much easier with the handle than without. The positions are so far away from each other, I find it needlessly strenuous without a handle. The handle is clumsy at first and took me a while to get used to, but assuming it's a good universal/ball/3-axis joint, I find it improves rather than impedes agility.
They were not positively reviewed.
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Re: Innovations you'd like to see
German slide stays from the late 17th to well into the 20th century were often "floating", where the top outer is not actually soldered to the stay and it can follow the top inner regardless of its alignment with the bottom tubes. It kind of works in that slides that aren't super well aligned still run okay and much better than if the outer was rigid, but it also makes them bever truly great either. My guess is on a double contra slide it would be pretty bad.
Maximilien Brisson
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Re: Innovations you'd like to see
Ferromagnetic metals lose their polarity over time. Or, if it's driven by electricity, that requires wires and a battery which adds weight.ChadA wrote: ↑Sun Nov 22, 2020 4:50 pm If the inner and outer slides included materials with opposite magnetic polarities, would the slide ride like maglev trains? Not that I want iron/steel slides nor slides that slick magnetically to music stands/trombone stands/chairs/etc..... I doubt this hair-brained idea would ever work.
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Another thing I wish were more common - even more than left-handed triggers for the oddballs like me - are options for consistent slide widths between horns of different bore sizes. Playing left-handed, I need a wide slide on jazz and alto 'bones due to having a wider than average neck and an embouchure occlusion that causes the horn angle to go to the right. I don't know of any good reason why "small bore" horns are always constructed with narrow slides except that is what people are used to.
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Re: Innovations you'd like to see
Left handed trombone player? That's just crazy talk.
What's next, a left handed guitar player?
Seriously though, when you were learning to play, did you naturally start on your left hand or did you start "normal" and eventually switch?
Also, I envision a band director standing next to you and hitting you on your knuckles with a baton every time you put the horn in your left hand.
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Re: Innovations you'd like to see
Only if the BD was wearing a nun's habit and it was St. Somethingorother School Band.Vegastokc wrote: ↑Tue Nov 24, 2020 12:00 pm ...
Seriously though, when you were learning to play, did you naturally start on your left hand or did you start "normal" and eventually switch?
Also, I envision a band director standing next to you and hitting you on your knuckles with a baton every time you put the horn in your left hand.
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My band director was left-handed, and he was fine with however I felt was comfortable.Vegastokc wrote: ↑Tue Nov 24, 2020 12:00 pm Left handed trombone player? That's just crazy talk.
What's next, a left handed guitar player?
Seriously though, when you were learning to play, did you naturally start on your left hand or did you start "normal" and eventually switch?
Also, I envision a band director standing next to you and hitting you on your knuckles with a baton every time you put the horn in your left hand.
“All musicians are subconsciously mathematicians.”
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Re: Innovations you'd like to see
'My band director was left-handed, and he was fine with however I felt was comfortable.'
I'm also a leftie. The MD of a band I payed in a while back was also left handed and a trombone player.
Slightly off topic but seeing as you mentioned it - I'd be interested to know if left handedness is more prevalent amongst trombone players than in the wider community. And how many of those play left handed.
Back to the topic - lubricating valves is a bit of a chore. The oil can go into places where its not needed like up into the F attachment tubing or down into the hand slide.
Would it be feasible to drill a small diameter bore into the valve shaft which connected with appropriately located drillings in the valve body.
To lubricate the valve you would undo the valve cap and inject oil into the hole in the shaft and the oil would end up exactly where it is needed.
I think it would reduce oil consumption quite a bit.
Thoughts?
I'm also a leftie. The MD of a band I payed in a while back was also left handed and a trombone player.
Slightly off topic but seeing as you mentioned it - I'd be interested to know if left handedness is more prevalent amongst trombone players than in the wider community. And how many of those play left handed.
Back to the topic - lubricating valves is a bit of a chore. The oil can go into places where its not needed like up into the F attachment tubing or down into the hand slide.
Would it be feasible to drill a small diameter bore into the valve shaft which connected with appropriately located drillings in the valve body.
To lubricate the valve you would undo the valve cap and inject oil into the hole in the shaft and the oil would end up exactly where it is needed.
I think it would reduce oil consumption quite a bit.
Thoughts?
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Re: Innovations you'd like to see
I suspect fewer lefties on trombone.
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Re: Innovations you'd like to see
Olds actually did this 70 years ago. I don't know why the idea never caught on. Maybe JohnL knows.PhilE wrote: ↑Wed Nov 25, 2020 3:38 am ...
Back to the topic - lubricating valves is a bit of a chore. The oil can go into places where its not needed like up into the F attachment tubing or down into the hand slide.
Would it be feasible to drill a small diameter bore into the valve shaft which connected with appropriately located drillings in the valve body.
To lubricate the valve you would undo the valve cap and inject oil into the hole in the shaft and the oil would end up exactly where it is needed.
I think it would reduce oil consumption quite a bit.
Thoughts?
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I haven't pulled one apart in a while, but I seem to recall that the Olds system only put oil on the back bearing (i.e., the one that's part of the casing). It was probably originally developed so you could get oil to the back bearing on those Olds rotors with the "hidden" bumpers, though you'll find it on Olds valves with conventional stop arms, too.BGuttman wrote: ↑Wed Nov 25, 2020 9:57 amOlds actually did this 70 years ago. I don't know why the idea never caught on. Maybe JohnL knows.PhilE wrote: ↑Wed Nov 25, 2020 3:38 am ...
Back to the topic - lubricating valves is a bit of a chore. The oil can go into places where its not needed like up into the F attachment tubing or down into the hand slide.
Would it be feasible to drill a small diameter bore into the valve shaft which connected with appropriately located drillings in the valve body.
To lubricate the valve you would undo the valve cap and inject oil into the hole in the shaft and the oil would end up exactly where it is needed.
I think it would reduce oil consumption quite a bit.
Thoughts?
Remember that it's common practice to use a different oil on the valve body than is used on the spindles. You'd need a separate oiling system for each. Not sure how that would work - maybe an oil port on the casing? Of course, that'd be a potential entry point for all kinds of crud.
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Requiring almost no dexterity, most lefties play the trombone right handed.
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How come these aren't more common. It would be very useful.
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Weight, complexity, fragility. One actually came on my contra slide (from '60s Germany) but was removed because it was so finicky.
I can see the upsides in some applications, but I'd rather have something simple and light than something fancy any day of the week.
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Re: Innovations you'd like to see
Controversial opinion: no water key at all is better than a bad water keyBurgerbob wrote: ↑Wed Nov 25, 2020 11:57 pmWeight, complexity, fragility. One actually came on my contra slide (from '60s Germany) but was removed because it was so finicky.
I can see the upsides in some applications, but I'd rather have something simple and light than something fancy any day of the week.
Maximilien Brisson
www.maximilienbrisson.com
Lecturer for baroque trombone,
Hfk Bremen/University of the Arts Bremen
www.maximilienbrisson.com
Lecturer for baroque trombone,
Hfk Bremen/University of the Arts Bremen
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Re: Innovations you'd like to see
That is probably true for some, but I suspect another reason applies also.harrisonreed wrote: ↑Wed Nov 25, 2020 7:26 pmRequiring almost no dexterity, most lefties play the trombone right handed.
We've had this discussion a number of times, and conventional wisdom is just force the lefties to play right handed. I think for a good share of them this is too frustrating and they quit. Depending on the reasons for left handedness, they may be more easily frustrated, though some of this is controversial.
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Re: Innovations you'd like to see
When I was younger, I used to have issues where when I would oil my valve, I would leave the horn put together, but then my slide would get really sticky and crappy. It seems a lot of valve oils do NOT mix well with the slide oils and can cause them to harden or thicken?paulyg wrote: ↑Sun Nov 22, 2020 3:28 pm I think the absolute biggest area for equipment improvement is with lubes.
There is NO lubrication system that works across all the temperatures and environments a reasonably busy trombone player encounters. Heck, most lubes from the same manufacturer don't play nice with each other.
I want slide lube that doesn't curdle from the heat, tuning slide grease that doesn't thin when it touches valve oil and gum up the whole horn, and some thin bearing oil that stays on for longer than 15 minutes. Don't get me started with body chemistry interactions.
Taking the horn apart was an easy solution, but in the event I need to oil my valve really quickly on a gig or something...
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I'm sure everyone here knows the anecdote about Slide Hampton playing lefty only because that's the way the trombone was handed to him when he started.
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Re: Innovations you'd like to see
He appears to have been right handed but played left handed. A bit odd
"They gave me the trombone left-handed and I played it that way. It's the only thing I do with my left hand."
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Last edited by imsevimse on Fri Nov 27, 2020 8:27 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Indeed!
But my observation about slide widths, wide necks, and embouchure occlusions has nothing to do with playing left-handed, except how the angles happen to line up for me. The same problems can happen to right-handed players.
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Re: Innovations you'd like to see
Okay, i might be going crazy, but i really have put some thought into modular slides and i really think it could work. If you just add one screw on part on each brace of the slide and have a tightening mechanism on the crook like saxes have for their necks, it’s a pretty simple idea. I mean, wouldnt having the option of changing between dual bore and single bore and different metals be so nice instead of buying a new slide.
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I feel like if this idea was cheaper than buying a new slide to the specifications that you want, or if the choice of slide materials wasn't already pretty much dictated by what the bell section is made of, this would already be a thing.Elow wrote: ↑Thu Nov 26, 2020 9:32 pm Okay, i might be going crazy, but i really have put some thought into modular slides and i really think it could work. If you just add one screw on part on each brace of the slide and have a tightening mechanism on the crook like saxes have for their necks, it’s a pretty simple idea. I mean, wouldnt having the option of changing between dual bore and single bore and different metals be so nice instead of buying a new slide.
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I'm not sure how you could keep everything in alignment with removable slide parts. It's hard enough with soldered slides! Not to mention the added weight and trying to keep it all from flying apart in use. Even TIS systems fail sometimes.
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Re: Innovations you'd like to see
Maybe my dreams are flawed I guess a lightweight slide could help, maybe a two piece brace instead of 3 piece. Crook would be a problem for alignment, so maybe having parts that have very tight tolerances like how edward bells had that flange that was threaded and had to be perfect to line up, but that would add more weight. Maybe on a rainy day ill order some parts and try some things
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Re: Innovations you'd like to see
My dad's lefty and he's always played his instruments (trombone and dulcimer) like a normal person.timothy42b wrote: ↑Thu Nov 26, 2020 7:46 amThat is probably true for some, but I suspect another reason applies also.harrisonreed wrote: ↑Wed Nov 25, 2020 7:26 pm
Requiring almost no dexterity, most lefties play the trombone right handed.
We've had this discussion a number of times, and conventional wisdom is just force the lefties to play right handed. I think for a good share of them this is too frustrating and they quit. Depending on the reasons for left handedness, they may be more easily frustrated, though some of this is controversial.
I do agree with @AndrewMeronek about the frustration of narrow slides on small bore horns. Uncomfortable, for me at least and apparently some others. A small bore tenor is still the same length of pipe as a large tenor or even bass, so I can't think of a particular reason why it has to have a narrower slide crook.
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Re: Innovations you'd like to see
I honestly have to say the opposite about wide slides- I'm one of the people who's fingers cannot comfortably get their finger to the mouthpiece with wide slides.
I wish they'd return to the age of pointer finger rings on trombones, if done well they work.
I wish they'd return to the age of pointer finger rings on trombones, if done well they work.
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CL might be the most famous left handed trombonist. He did all right.spencercarran wrote: ↑Thu Nov 26, 2020 11:54 pmMy dad's lefty and he's always played his instruments (trombone and dulcimer) like a normal person.timothy42b wrote: ↑Thu Nov 26, 2020 7:46 am
That is probably true for some, but I suspect another reason applies also.
We've had this discussion a number of times, and conventional wisdom is just force the lefties to play right handed. I think for a good share of them this is too frustrating and they quit. Depending on the reasons for left handedness, they may be more easily frustrated, though some of this is controversial.
I do agree with @AndrewMeronek about the frustration of narrow slides on small bore horns. Uncomfortable, for me at least and apparently some others. A small bore tenor is still the same length of pipe as a large tenor or even bass, so I can't think of a particular reason why it has to have a narrower slide crook.
Small bores having a narrow crook changes the way it plays, of that I'm certain.
It also lets you have a longer overall slide (especially if the design also shortens the bell section), which might explain the slide vibrato you can get in first on a lot of small bore horns. I wonder if a Bb length slide with a 1 inch wide crook would get 8 positions?
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Re: Innovations you'd like to see
The Getzen Slide Trumpet has a crook like that and it's a PITA to maneuver.harrisonreed wrote: ↑Fri Nov 27, 2020 6:06 am ...
It also lets you have a longer overall slide (especially if the design also shortens the bell section), which might explain the slide vibrato you can get in first on a lot of small bore horns. I wonder if a Bb length slide with a 1 inch wide crook would get 8 positions?
If you make the crook about 1 inch (2.5 cm) you still won't make 8 positions unless you shorten the bell quite a bit (and add that to the slide).
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Re: Innovations you'd like to see
Changes the way it plays, sure. Changes it in a way that's uniformly bad for small tenor, but not for large tenor or bass? I guess I don't know, since I've never encountered a small tenor with wide crook. Maybe it would wreck the acoustics of the instrument somehow.harrisonreed wrote: ↑Fri Nov 27, 2020 6:06 amSmall bores having a narrow crook changes the way it plays, of that I'm certain.
Wide Bach and Holton bass slides still have 7 positions with room to spare. IME they also have a usable 6th position on the F side, provided the player's arm is long enough. It's got to be a tiny number of trombonists who can physically use, much less feel any need for, a longer slide than is already standard on wider crook instruments.harrisonreed wrote: ↑Fri Nov 27, 2020 6:06 amIt also lets you have a longer overall slide (especially if the design also shortens the bell section), which might explain the slide vibrato you can get in first on a lot of small bore horns. I wonder if a Bb length slide with a 1 inch wide crook would get 8 positions?
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Re: Innovations you'd like to see
It doesn't. I have a wide-slide .508 Shires, and it plays great. In many ways, the best jazz horn I've ever seen. The only quirk that I've found so far is that the 13th partial up in trumpet land is a bit squirrelly. But on trombone, that's not an issue at all, as we're used to using the slide to dial things in anyway, pitch-wise. And I'm sure this is a solveable problem for someone who won't mind throwing a lot of $$$ at multiple prototypes.spencercarran wrote: ↑Fri Nov 27, 2020 11:46 am Maybe it would wreck the acoustics of the instrument somehow.
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Changing crook width does change the sound and response of an instrument. I have a Bach 36 (which starts out... Medium wide?) which I had converted to wide with a Shires crook. Same .525 size, same material, and I think even the same overall length (so not longer). It now plays a bit larger and sounds more 42ish.
I know that the Wide Glide crook was quite popular, converting .508 horns to a much wider slide.
I know that the Wide Glide crook was quite popular, converting .508 horns to a much wider slide.
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Re: Innovations you'd like to see
Re: lefties, a leftie friend who is also an engineer converted his Holton bass so he could play it left-handed. The valves were the tricky part.
Re: innovations, I like to see a small case in which to keep my collection of Elliott mpc parts. I realized this morning that I’m up to about six combinations: C, E4 and E8, G, H, and K, along with a bunch of rims.
Re: innovations, I like to see a small case in which to keep my collection of Elliott mpc parts. I realized this morning that I’m up to about six combinations: C, E4 and E8, G, H, and K, along with a bunch of rims.
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Re: Innovations you'd like to see
Of course. "Change" does not necessarily mean "wreck" - that's what I was contextualizing.Burgerbob wrote: ↑Fri Nov 27, 2020 12:37 pm Changing crook width does change the sound and response of an instrument. I have a Bach 36 (which starts out... Medium wide?) which I had converted to wide with a Shires crook. Same .525 size, same material, and I think even the same overall length (so not longer). It now plays a bit larger and sounds more 42ish.
I know that the Wide Glide crook was quite popular, converting .508 horns to a much wider slide.
Compared to a "narrow slide" trombone, my horn does play more open, with a bit of a warmer sound. But it retains characteristics of small-bore horns that people like, particularly the better high-range stability and endurance. And because it's more open, I feel it's easier to control dynamics.
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Re: Innovations you'd like to see
I think we're all in agreement on that point. It will certainly change the instrument's response, but not necessarily for the worse, depending on what you want to use it for and the player's individual preferences. Which just gets back to the question of why wide slides on small tenors are so uncommon.AndrewMeronek wrote: ↑Sun Nov 29, 2020 2:39 pmOf course. "Change" does not necessarily mean "wreck" - that's what I was contextualizing.
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Because there is almost no demand, and the designers must likely think the trade-off would not work as well. Even Shires/Edwards do not produce a trombone with this option, and if anyone could it would be them. For reference they make such weird options as extra large dual-bore bass slides, and bass bore tenor slides -- stuff that only works well for a few people on the whole earth.spencercarran wrote: ↑Sun Nov 29, 2020 2:48 pmI think we're all in agreement on that point. It will certainly change the instrument's response, but not necessarily for the worse, depending on what you want to use it for and the player's individual preferences. Which just gets back to the question of why wide slides on small tenors are so uncommon.AndrewMeronek wrote: ↑Sun Nov 29, 2020 2:39 pmOf course. "Change" does not necessarily mean "wreck" - that's what I was contextualizing.
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Re: Innovations you'd like to see
I agree that those work well for very few people. Many more people choose to use them though, so guess it's all about market demand.harrisonreed wrote: ↑Sun Nov 29, 2020 4:16 pmFor reference they make such weird options as extra large dual-bore bass slides, and bass bore tenor slides -- stuff that only works well for a few people on the whole earth.
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Re: Innovations you'd like to see
...harrisonreed wrote: ↑Sun Nov 29, 2020 4:16 pm Even Shires/Edwards do not produce a trombone with this option, and if anyone could it would be them.
Anyway, it's certainly a bit of a pain to tool up for a different crook width, but no more so than any tuning slide or valve wrap curve. I imagine most custom builders would do so if asked, but they aren't asked all that often, and some of those requests are then probably set aside when a price is mentioned.AndrewMeronek wrote: ↑Fri Nov 27, 2020 12:07 pm I have a wide-slide .508 Shires, and it plays great.
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I mean, I have a 36H with a mechanical linkage . Doesn't mean that is on the menu lol.ithinknot wrote: ↑Sun Nov 29, 2020 5:33 pm...harrisonreed wrote: ↑Sun Nov 29, 2020 4:16 pm Even Shires/Edwards do not produce a trombone with this option, and if anyone could it would be them.
Anyway, it's certainly a bit of a pain to tool up for a different crook width, but no more so than any tuning slide or valve wrap curve. I imagine most custom builders would do so if asked, but they aren't asked all that often, and some of those requests are then probably set aside when a price is mentioned.AndrewMeronek wrote: ↑Fri Nov 27, 2020 12:07 pm I have a wide-slide .508 Shires, and it plays great.
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Re: Innovations you'd like to see
I thought one of the attractions of the Elliott system was that it would get you off the mouthpiece merry-go-round, and that you'd be playing everything on a similar rim, with perhaps varying cup depths, thus vastly reducing your collection?
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Re: Innovations you'd like to see
Just keep the appropriate mouthpiece with each horn.
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Re: Innovations you'd like to see
Well, I’m mulling over ordering a LB 113 rim because, you know, that 2/10ths of a millimetre might be the answer.
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- Location: California
Re: Innovations you'd like to see
Makes sense!
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Re: Innovations you'd like to see
It’s not quite that simple. The C can go in my alto, and small and medium tenors, the Es can go in my medium and large tenor, the F and G can fit into my medium and large tenors and the K into either of two basses. 101, 102 and 104 rims.
Maybe I misunderstood the concept?
Maybe I misunderstood the concept?
- BGuttman
- Posts: 6295
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- Location: Cow Hampshire
Re: Innovations you'd like to see
Doug's suggestion is that you have one combination that works best with each horn and you keep that one with the horn.
I find that a LT E cup works best on most of my small and medium bore horns, so I have a pouch with a 102N rim on an E cup with E2, E4, and EI6 shanks (the latter one works on a Chino-Bone that has a Medium receiver -- neither small nor large).
I find that a LT E cup works best on most of my small and medium bore horns, so I have a pouch with a 102N rim on an E cup with E2, E4, and EI6 shanks (the latter one works on a Chino-Bone that has a Medium receiver -- neither small nor large).
Bruce Guttman
Merrimack Valley Philharmonic Orchestra
"Almost Professional"
Merrimack Valley Philharmonic Orchestra
"Almost Professional"
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Re: Innovations you'd like to see
I’m with Doug. I have enough parts that I keep a full mouthpiece with each horn. Except some of them have silver rather than Lexan rims. In case I manage to get somewhere and discover that I borrowed the rim for another horn, I also have a spare non-Elliott mouthpiece in each case. But maybe that works because I only have one alto (c), small bore (c), medium bore (e), and large bore (g). Clearly I’m a slacker on owning trombones. I also have a small, solo alto horn (a) and a bass trumpet. The latter does not have an Elliott mouthpiece dedicated to it because it is only used for traveling when I want a compact, beater to keep up my chops. To me the concept was staying on the same rim for all of them.
However, if you want to minimize buying parts and maximize the chance of leaving all your mouthpieces at home, take a look at pelican or other foamed lined cases for cameras or astronomy eyepieces. They are easily customized. I suggest a lining that can be cut with a box knife rather than the pick and pluck foam. Those choices might be too coarse for rims and shanks.
However, if you want to minimize buying parts and maximize the chance of leaving all your mouthpieces at home, take a look at pelican or other foamed lined cases for cameras or astronomy eyepieces. They are easily customized. I suggest a lining that can be cut with a box knife rather than the pick and pluck foam. Those choices might be too coarse for rims and shanks.
The user formerly known as amichael on TTF.
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- Posts: 123
- Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2018 5:10 pm
- Location: Tacoma, WA
Re: Innovations you'd like to see
Bring back the fluted slides.
Stop fooling around with so many lead pipe options. (Just one is enough).
Stop naming trombone materials after famous people, in hope that it's going to sell the product ("This is the new Frank Rosolino slide spray!!")
Stop fooling around with so many lead pipe options. (Just one is enough).
Stop naming trombone materials after famous people, in hope that it's going to sell the product ("This is the new Frank Rosolino slide spray!!")
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Re: Innovations you'd like to see
I'd like to see quarter turn mechanism for valve caps and mouthpieces, or other places you might cross-thread really fine threads.
- harrisonreed
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- Location: Fort Riley, Kansas
- Contact:
Re: Innovations you'd like to see
Lol, here's what I want, before another valve type or bell material comes on the market:
Bumper pads that are silent, not squishy, and don't compress even after 100 years of non-stop valve activation.
Witness marks that actually work. Seriously, I don't even know why they bother on a lot of the horns. The witness mark itself must be actually in the right place, and then also thinner than the acceptable margin of error. Even on a really expensive well built trombone the mark is in the wrong spot and is a millimeter wide.
Bumper pads that are silent, not squishy, and don't compress even after 100 years of non-stop valve activation.
Witness marks that actually work. Seriously, I don't even know why they bother on a lot of the horns. The witness mark itself must be actually in the right place, and then also thinner than the acceptable margin of error. Even on a really expensive well built trombone the mark is in the wrong spot and is a millimeter wide.
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Re: Innovations you'd like to see
Sounds like you may want polyurethane. Lots of hardnesses available to get what you want it to feel like.harrisonreed wrote: ↑Thu Dec 03, 2020 6:45 pm ...
Bumper pads that are silent, not squishy, and don't compress even after 100 years of non-stop valve activation.
...
What's a "witness mark"?