Is it okay to go to college for a music education degree later in life? Is the virus going to change music education?

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galderto
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Is it okay to go to college for a music education degree later in life? Is the virus going to change music education?

Post by galderto » Tue May 12, 2020 9:09 pm

Hi y'all.

So I recently dropped out of school last fall semester. I had a bit of a rough semester with people and how I was doing grade wise, plus I just lost the motivation currently to deal with classes or even regularly practice my horn. I just don't feel ready for school and if I were to go back it would not be the university I recently attended. I still love playing and being involved in community ensembles. I'm also nervous of going into music education and have it deteriorate my passion for music. Has anyone not gone the traditional college route (going right out of high school) and had success? I'm concerned about the future of education with the virus outbreak and if it is going to shape it differently.

Also I don't exactly want to spend the money for school at the moment or don't have the money to leave my hometown for school. I do plan on going out to get a Class A CDL when I turn 21 this coming January and try truck driving. It's good money and I enjoy traveling and driving. It's something to try out and to make money while I'm deciding if to go back to school one day.

Yes, I am still young, only 20. I'm definitely going through that "I'm an adult who is conflicted on what to do with his/her life" phase. I don't want to drop music and I plan on keeping it in my life either as a hobby or career. My big concerns are: how is it being an educator in today's world (and if it's going to change? Is going to college later in life okay? How is the pay and can you live comfortably on a teacher salary?

Thank you to all who reply,

GA
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Re: Is it okay to go to college for a music education degree later in life? Is the virus going to change music education

Post by AndrewMeronek » Tue May 12, 2020 9:16 pm

I think that regarding music education (specifically with the goal to become a band director), it's pretty wise to do that degree later in life. It's not so much the technical knowledge, but you don't know if you can handle a classroom multiple times every day when you're young, and if you get that degree when you're young, you might lock yourself into something you don't do well. Handling classrooms is hard; it's not for everyone.
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Re: Is it okay to go to college for a music education degree later in life? Is the virus going to change music education

Post by BGuttman » Tue May 12, 2020 9:41 pm

Your problem is not uncommon. You need a while to sort out your career ambitions. Sometimes a year trying to get a job with little education and seeing what you can achieve can be motivation to go back to school. Or maybe to find a different thing to do that you find you like. Sometimes a stint working for Uncle Sam can help clear up your plans.

Keep an open mind and see what you like.

I should point out that as a long haul trucker you won't have a lot of opportunity to join a community band. You won't be able to commit to regular rehearsals.
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Re: Is it okay to go to college for a music education degree later in life? Is the virus going to change music education

Post by AndrewMeronek » Tue May 12, 2020 9:53 pm

As for career paths, mine has been circuitous. Out of high school, I went to West Point and left after 2 years. I spent a year getting my bearings doing some factory work, and went back to a public state school to get a double-major in music and computer science, then went to get a Master's in jazz studies, joined the Army to pay off my student loans, and now I'm out of the Army and am currently a controls engineer with a specialty in PLC programming, thanks to that computer science degree.

Based on what I've seen though, one of the absolute best degrees to pursue if you have the discipline is mathematics. Pay scales are pretty good, and it's pretty easy to transition to some other degree if you decide you like something else more, because mathematics is so useful in a huge variety of disciplines. You don't have to be a 'gifted' math whiz; just willing to put in the work. Pretty much like anything.
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Re: Is it okay to go to college for a music education degree later in life? Is the virus going to change music education

Post by imsevimse » Tue May 12, 2020 11:00 pm

I made my choice to do a carrer in music when I choose the only existing music program in high school. The only existing one in Sweden at that time. After that I continued to college to study trombone and brass teaching at The Royal Accademy of Music in Stockholm. When I graduated I worked 13 years as a music teacher and a freelance musician.

In the beginning I thought this was what I would do but soon I came to a turningpoint where I felt I had to do a complete change in carrer. At that time I was 28. The year was 1991 and I had only worked as a music teacher for four years. I started to take small steps to get another carrer. It took another eight years from that decision to make it happen.

First I studied mathematics and some other prepariing courses from 1991 to 1996. Since we had two children this took some time. After that I bought a private education in programming at college level. I attended courses in the evenings after my day job as a music teacher during three years 1996-1999.

I got a new job as a programmer from the first January 2000. Unfortunately this was when the It-business had a big crisis so in 2003 all employees lost their jobs.

In the crisis I could not get a new job and had to go study again. I studied full time for four years to get a bachelors degree in electronics and engineering.

Before I could be accepted at that program at college I had to do a year of preparing courses in maths, chemistry and physics. I had to do that because I hadn't the nessecary degrees. I then studied three years at college from 2005-2008 and after this I got a job as a programmer again. I've worked as a programmer since.

What I'm telling here is the path to change a carrer later in life can be long and not very easy, especially if you have a family and children to take care of. I had to take a brake from playing for four years 1996-2000 and then again from 2004-2008 but after that I now play more than ever.

I had a lot of help from my mother who made it possible for me to study late in life. She helped me and took care of my children when I attended courses in 1996-1999. I also had to pay a lot for the courses so the economy was not the best.

I have never regretted my decision to change carrer. Now I play as much as I want and have a steady job that make it possible to live a good life.

I have often thought of if I could have done the opposite. What if I had first studied to be a programmer and later had took on music. I think for me it had meant I had not been able to play at the level I am right now. The first years in music did give a lot of experience and musical contacts that I could pick up later when I was ready to play again. If I had not focused on my music studies I would probably not have had any contact with any professional players and not had that same experience.

A double degree had been the best choice, but that was never on my mind back when I was 20.

/Tom
Last edited by imsevimse on Tue May 12, 2020 11:40 pm, edited 15 times in total.
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Re: Is it okay to go to college for a music education degree later in life? Is the virus going to change music education

Post by Bach5G » Tue May 12, 2020 11:23 pm

I realized during my first year of music school that I was in the wrong place but my father encouraged me to stick it out. I’d already taken a couple of years off, decided what I wanted to do, only to find out that wasn’t going to happen. In third year, an acquaintance mentioned she was preparing to write the LSAT. I had no idea what that was.

I finished my degree in music and then went to law school. In hindsight -30 years of hindsight - it was maybe not the best fit, but it was the best of the few choices I had at the time. It’s worked out more or less.

One of my friends gave me a card when I left his firm that said something along the lines of life is to be lived prospectively but can only be understood retrospectively. A fancy way of saying hindsight is 20/20 perhaps. Edited to add: That comment turns out to be Kierkegaard who believed that one lives prospectively but understands retrospectively, by looking backwards.
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Re: Is it okay to go to college for a music education degree later in life? Is the virus going to change music education

Post by LeTromboniste » Wed May 13, 2020 2:22 am

I just want to point out that it is really too early right now to take decisions based on the virus. We don't know if or when there will be a vaccine. A vaccine could solve everything but could also be ineffective if the virus mutates too fast. The virus could mutate to less contagious strains. Etc. We don't know for sure if this is a blip of a few months, or a one-year or two-year blip, or if this is a "new world order" kind of change.

One thing I'll say about music education is you really only should go down that path if you have a legitimate passion for teaching. If your thinking is just that music education would get you a steady job and let you make a living while staying close to music, don't do it. Teaching (especially at school level) isn't about you, it's about the kids, and the last thing they need is teachers that don't like their jobs. Have you ever taught? If not, try to get some students or get hired as a section coach in some middle or high school (when schools are open again of course) and get your feet wet. You probably won't know for sure that it's "for you", but if it's definitely not for you, then you'll know.

One more thing: being a school teacher is a hard job. I grew up seeing my mom be a high school teacher and seeing her friends, also teachers, and I know I could never do it. Between the mean kids, the kids that come from tough neighborhoods or families, or with mental health issues and you wish you could help more but aren't given the resources to, the crazy entitled parents, the politics with the colleagues and with school principals, the relatively low pay for the huge amount of work (lots and lots of unpaid hours) and the lack of appreciation by the rest of society, there are many things that can pull you down, and the rate of burnout and depression amongst teachers is staggering. It's extremely rewarding if you're passionate about it, but also extremely demanding and tough.
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norbie2018
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Re: Is it okay to go to college for a music education degree later in life? Is the virus going to change music education

Post by norbie2018 » Wed May 13, 2020 7:34 am

LeTromboniste wrote:
Wed May 13, 2020 2:22 am
I just want to point out that it is really too early right now to take decisions based on the virus. We don't know if or when there will be a vaccine. A vaccine could solve everything but could also be ineffective if the virus mutates too fast. The virus could mutate to less contagious strains. Etc. We don't know for sure if this is a blip of a few months, or a one-year or two-year blip, or if this is a "new world order" kind of change.

One thing I'll say about music education is you really only should go down that path if you have a legitimate passion for teaching. If your thinking is just that music education would get you a steady job and let you make a living while staying close to music, don't do it. Teaching (especially at school level) isn't about you, it's about the kids, and the last thing they need is teachers that don't like their jobs. Have you ever taught? If not, try to get some students or get hired as a section coach in some middle or high school (when schools are open again of course) and get your feet wet. You probably won't know for sure that it's "for you", but if it's definitely not for you, then you'll know.

One more thing: being a school teacher is a hard job. I grew up seeing my mom be a high school teacher and seeing her friends, also teachers, and I know I could never do it. Between the mean kids, the kids that come from tough neighborhoods or families, or with mental health issues and you wish you could help more but aren't given the resources to, the crazy entitled parents, the politics with the colleagues and with school principals, the relatively low pay for the huge amount of work (lots and lots of unpaid hours) and the lack of appreciation by the rest of society, there are many things that can pull you down, and the rate of burnout and depression amongst teachers is staggering. It's extremely rewarding if you're passionate about it, but also extremely demanding and tough.
Very well put and exactly my sentiments on the issue.

There are MANY ways of staying meaningfully connected to music that don't involve a career in education which I would encourage you to explore. Music can be an avocation, bringing great joy to yourself and others, without having to connect it with your source of income. I can personally attest to this being a former music teacher and now in a completely different career.
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Re: Is it okay to go to college for a music education degree later in life? Is the virus going to change music education

Post by hyperbolica » Wed May 13, 2020 10:57 am

I went 2 years to music school, then went into the Navy as a musician for 4 years, and then went back to school for engineering. I was definitely too young to be making decisions about the rest of my life at that age. You might look at military music. It's more secure than other types of musical work, and it will give you some time to grow up and figure some things out.
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Re: Is it okay to go to college for a music education degree later in life? Is the virus going to change music education

Post by Gary » Wed May 13, 2020 11:30 am

Regarding the later-in-life thing, I got my degree at 27, both my parents at about 40. My mom became a teacher.
I think one thing to pay attention to, is to get practice teaching or internship as early as you can. It's always baffled me how some schools don't expose their students to a teaching environment until late in their program and then find out they cant handle the kids or, even if they can, to enjoy it. That's a time consuming and expensive revelation.
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Re: Is it okay to go to college for a music education degree later in life? Is the virus going to change music education

Post by Posaunus » Wed May 13, 2020 11:51 am

LeTromboniste wrote:
Wed May 13, 2020 2:22 am
One more thing: being a school teacher is a hard job. ... It's extremely rewarding if you're passionate about it, but also extremely demanding and tough.
:good:
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Re: Is it okay to go to college for a music education degree later in life? Is the virus going to change music education

Post by HawaiiTromboneGuy » Wed May 13, 2020 12:34 pm

I was in the same boat as you coming out of hs. Right after I graduated from hs I went to the local community college for 2 years. I still wasn’t sure what I wanted to do in life so I dropped out and luckily landed a trade job in the dental field that paid well and learned the craft while on the job. I finally felt I was ready to go back to school in 2010 (graduated hs in ‘02) and I graduated in 2014 with a degree in criminal justice. All the while I still continued playing music in local community bands to keep my chops in shape. I now work for the federal government making a decent enough salary to live comfortably here in Hawaii.

College isn’t for everybody. I have friends who are very successful in life that didn’t finish college. They worked hard, made good decisions, and are now happy where they are in life. If college isn’t your flavor right now, take the time off to explore other things in life. If and when you’re ready, you’ll know. There’s definitely no shame in that.
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Re: Is it okay to go to college for a music education degree later in life? Is the virus going to change music education

Post by Gary » Wed May 13, 2020 3:00 pm

I had a friend who just goofed off in college (UH) and got drafted. He started in construction just fixing up little stuff, like curbs. He kept climbing until he had his own construction company, an awesome house in Hawai'i and a ton of money.

The other of our trio did a more conventional route and went to the right schools, studied with the right people and ended up playing 40-something years in the Philadelphia orchestra.

It's where your passion is.Take it from a guy who's been around. Don't do a boring, perfunctory job from day to day. Whatever path you choose, make it work for you.
Last edited by Gary on Thu May 14, 2020 7:51 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Is it okay to go to college for a music education degree later in life? Is the virus going to change music education

Post by Mikebmiller » Wed May 13, 2020 3:20 pm

See if you can work a band camp or so some private teaching. That would give you a chance to get in front of students just to see how you enjoy it. I worked a band camp a couple of summers ago and I can say that 4 hours a day for just 2 weeks had me wanting to choke a few kids, so maybe it's good that I was never teacher.
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Re: Is it okay to go to college for a music education degree later in life? Is the virus going to change music education

Post by neapolitan58 » Thu May 14, 2020 12:17 am

I would agree with the folks here who've said get teaching experience. Especially classroom experience. Public school teaching, at any grade, is about growing the kids, not you. However......funny thing is, if you like it, are passionate about it, and keep finding effective ways to teach your kids, it will make you a better musician. If you only love performing music, but don't want to teach, there are always auditions in all the professional groups out there. Now....take this for what it's worth, but professional means a LOT of things. Orchestras, rock bands, backup bands, cruise ships, and military bands. That's what I did. The Army, USAF, Navy, Coast Guard, and the Marines all have bands. The audition standards vary. Generally, except for the bands in Washington, DC and the academies, the USAF has the toughest audition standard. This info is readily available online at the websites for the various branches---just Google "USAF Band Program", for example. I did a split career, 6 years in the Army Bands and 21 in the USAF. 6 different duty stations over 27 years. I was a pianist/keyboardist. That meant that I played in the concert band, jazz band, rock band, marching band, and as a solo pianist. In the marching band I played percussion. (Not trombone, as some of you might have seen my other post on TIS horns. We always had really good trombone players in the AF and the didn't need me for that.) Also perc in the concert band, although I also played piano if there were piano parts, which become more and more the case. Obviously, I played piano in the jazz big band, and keys in the rock band. It was a good gig, and a good career. It always pushed me, because the requirements were constantly changing depending on what was coming up on the band's schedule. Was it tough at times, schedule-wise? Yes. Was it satisfying? Yes. Was it a job? Yes. That means good days, bad days, and a lot of in-between days. That's called having a job. But I did this career because I loved music and it was a way to earn a living as a musician and continue to grow, day-to-day, week-to-week, and year-to-year. Now....another thing. You ARE in the military. You swear an oath to "support and defend the constitution of the US, against all enemies, foreign and domestic." That's a whole another thing that you have to deal with that your civilian orchestra-playing counterparts will never have to do. Does it mean that you're on the front lines? No. But you could be. And to make a finer point on it, the Army and the Marine missions in general see a lot more of that way of living in the service. I'm emphasizing this to make you aware that being in the service is not like joining the Del Rio Symphony or the Syracuse Community Band. You're in the service and it is what it is.

That all being said, your duties as a lower-ranking Airman would be mostly go to rehearsal, go to the gigs, and assist in some shop (such as supply, admin, or ops). And there is also the GI Bill, which you could use for college after you get out. Go to the VA website for info on that one, but it's a good deal.

You're only twenty, so you're pretty young. I remember going through a bunch of stuff at that age, and although it seems like these are life-and-death decisions, they're not. You could stay in music school and become a music teacher. You could switch and become a performance major. Of course, if your heart is set on classical music and an orchestra job, you should try to get the best teacher you can find, and study with him/her. Both for the experience and the connections. And try out for every orchestra and every solo competition that you can. If you're a little more broad in your music tastes, try joining a rock band and going on the road, or do cruise ship work. (But not right now, because of COVID.) Cruise ship show bands are steady work that lets you play your horn, sight-read a lot, and save up some money. It's not a permanent career, unless you want to live on a ship for the rest of your life, but for a few years of contracts, you could get a lot of job experience, life experience, and save a lot of money, Contracts are usually 4-6 months. There are a number of YouTube videos you can watch to get a real feel for this work.

Outside of music, well, math degrees are good, so is engineering, as are business and science. And don't rule out the trades. I had 2 uncles who were plumbers and they did very well. As one example, there are approximately 40,000 beginning level welding jobs going unfilled now in the US. Check out MIke Rowe on YouTube--he's got the numbers and the perspective on the trades and the "dirty" jobs.

Bottom line? You're ok, but I would agree with those who say that music ed degrees are for those who love kids and teaching. But 20? It's just a number. I got my masters at 36, so you know...you have lots of time. Make sure you think on it and try to get some practical teaching experience, even if just giving private lessons. Thanks for reading the long post.

Respectfully,
PMH
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Re: Is it okay to go to college for a music education degree later in life? Is the virus going to change music education

Post by JohnL » Thu May 14, 2020 8:02 am

I'm thinking somebody should sticky this thread. So much good information.
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Re: Is it okay to go to college for a music education degree later in life? Is the virus going to change music education

Post by slipperyjoe » Thu May 14, 2020 9:03 am

Any time is a good time to work toward a degree as long as it's the right time for you. If never, that's perfectly fine too.

I recently retired from a 25+ year career teaching elementary science and college biology. When a teacher is enthusiastic about their work and looks out for the best interests of their students, it's a great job and the years just fly by. That said, it's not always easy to deal with administrators often most concerned about climbing their particular greasy pole to success. Kids are almost never the problem. Parents are generally reasonable and responsive to professionalism and expertise.

Teaching is a whatever-you-make-of-it profession and there can be many opportunities to pursue other interests. I was able to co-direct a brass choir, give lessons and play in school productions as well as work musical interests into some units, which involved collaboration with the music teacher.

Teaching is just one of many ways to earn a living and have fun doing it.
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Re: Is it okay to go to college for a music education degree later in life? Is the virus going to change music education

Post by davebb » Fri May 15, 2020 3:48 pm

I recommend reading a recent book called “Range” by David Epstein.
It has a great discussion about how the structure of college courses pushes people into specialisation way earlier than is best for the person to be able to realise their potential.
It also some great examples of people who followed what most would consider to be directionless career paths, but how their range of experiences enabled them to excel at something later.
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Re: Is it okay to go to college for a music education degree later in life? Is the virus going to change music education

Post by Gary » Fri May 15, 2020 6:23 pm

slipperyjoe wrote:
Thu May 14, 2020 9:03 am
That said, it's not always easy to deal with administrators often most concerned about climbing their particular greasy pole to success. Kids are almost never the problem. Parents are generally reasonable and responsive to professionalism and expertise.
Word!

I was Composer-in Residence for a major school district. They didn't have a specific contract for a composer, so they substituted with a teacher's contract. At the end of my first year, I got a letter from the School Board saying that, if I wanted to keep my job, I would have to continue my education for a doctorate or a teacher's certificate (which I would never use). There had been no mention of that when I was initially hired. They just arbitrarily added it on.

I just finished school and a mandatory hitch in the service and more school and they wanted me to turn around and go back to school - and on my own time and at my own expense. No thank you! To boot, a separate commission was to be given me to sweeten my contract, and I wrote the music and then the school board refused to pay because I was not continuing the next year. They reneged on it. These guys were bureaucratic scabs.

School teaching can have it's reward but don't kid yourself into thinking that all administrators have your best interest at heart.
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Re: Is it okay to go to college for a music education degree later in life? Is the virus going to change music education

Post by VJOFan » Sun May 24, 2020 10:21 am

If you love music, but not teaching, music teaching is a living hell! Only after you have really got things going on as a teacher do you ever get to the making music part of the job. If you don’t get the teaching side right, the music will be bad and you will be frustrated.

In my career I’m glad for two things: I got into teaching after I had satisfied my personal music goals and I moved out of the music part of teaching into a different subject when it was clear it was about to become not very fun at my school. (The bureaucracy had installed way too many music cooks in a too small music kitchen.)

My message is just that you need to do the thing that makes you want to get up (or at least doesn’t make it hard) each day. That thing can change several times over a life time.

(You did ask about money. If you do a little research on teacher salaries it is anywhere from poverty line to comfortable middle class. It is a state to state, district to district thing.)
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Re: Is it okay to go to college for a music education degree later in life? Is the virus going to change music education

Post by slipperyjoe » Sun May 24, 2020 11:27 am

VJOFan wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 10:21 am
(You did ask about money. If you do a little research on teacher salaries it is anywhere from poverty line to comfortable middle class. It is a state to state, district to district thing.)
Also state to state (or jurisdiction to jurisdiction) are public employee pension plans. Some are in decent shape. Some are nearly insolvent. Public school systems may also provide for additional tax-deferred retirement savings. Worth investigating in addition to yearly salary.

Independent schools often provide for tax-deferred retirement savings (e.g., through institutions such as TIAA), but not an actual pension.

Who knows how this will all be impacted by the current health/economic disaster.
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Re: Is it okay to go to college for a music education degree later in life? Is the virus going to change music education

Post by Cotboneman » Sun May 24, 2020 8:27 pm

LeTromboniste wrote:
Wed May 13, 2020 2:22 am
I just want to point out that it is really too early right now to take decisions based on the virus. We don't know if or when there will be a vaccine. A vaccine could solve everything but could also be ineffective if the virus mutates too fast. The virus could mutate to less contagious strains. Etc. We don't know for sure if this is a blip of a few months, or a one-year or two-year blip, or if this is a "new world order" kind of change.

One thing I'll say about music education is you really only should go down that path if you have a legitimate passion for teaching. If your thinking is just that music education would get you a steady job and let you make a living while staying close to music, don't do it. Teaching (especially at school level) isn't about you, it's about the kids, and the last thing they need is teachers that don't like their jobs. Have you ever taught? If not, try to get some students or get hired as a section coach in some middle or high school (when schools are open again of course) and get your feet wet. You probably won't know for sure that it's "for you", but if it's definitely not for you, then you'll know.

One more thing: being a school teacher is a hard job. I grew up seeing my mom be a high school teacher and seeing her friends, also teachers, and I know I could never do it. Between the mean kids, the kids that come from tough neighborhoods or families, or with mental health issues and you wish you could help more but aren't given the resources to, the crazy entitled parents, the politics with the colleagues and with school principals, the relatively low pay for the huge amount of work (lots and lots of unpaid hours) and the lack of appreciation by the rest of society, there are many things that can pull you down, and the rate of burnout and depression amongst teachers is staggering. It's extremely rewarding if you're passionate about it, but also extremely demanding and tough.
This is quite an excellent post and a very sound perspective. I retired from and a high school.middle school band director after 34 years on the job. I can't tell you how many teachers I've known who started out just wanting a day gig and benefits to support their freelance work. I never witnessed that strategy work, because the job is just too demanding with respect to time and commitment to your students' achievements. Most discover that ultimate truth in music teaching; all that really matters are the kids. That's what we are there for, to help them through music fine arts to become better people in our society. And because I taught with that in mind, I was rewarded with students who accomplished so much in their later lives; doctors, music teachers, Air Force pilots, police officers, and so much more. But to get there, you have to realize that your day doesn't end with the 3 pm bell. It's only beginning, with sectionals and private lessons and help, marching band practice, parent meetings, concerts and recitals, football games, Saturday marching festivals, solo and ensemble festivals, all region and all state performances, jazz band festivals, and those long, long bus trips. I won't blame my later family issues on my absence, but it didn't help. i'd still do it all over again!

And, if you are decent at your job, administrators start noticing what you are doing, and draft you for other non-music duties, such as chairing four high school accreditation cycles, and loaning you out to other district schools to help them with their cycles, or even more, allowing you to join state accreditation teams to evaluate high schools in other districts. So you end up with non-musical work on your plate, too.

Mr. Holland's Opus got a lot right in this regard. Your short term goals are just that, short term. You don't realize that the job, if you are good at it, soon takes on a life of its own. Pretty soon you are lucky if you have one night a week free to play in that community band. I didn't worry too much about that, because I loved what i was doing. My kids were, and are the proudest part of my life. But I know know that we all come at this from so many different places. If a young person is not sure about teaching, they should take off enough time to do something else. Maybe look for some private students to see if it's for them. I knew from high school that teaching was what I wanted to do, but that is not always true for others.

As far as the pandemic is concerned, I don't think anybody has a clue what will happen next. Until a vaccine is developed, or the virus becomes less virulent, there is no consensus on how it will affect schools. Most of the academic subjects have become acclimated to distance learning, but that is difficult for instrumental and vocal music ensembles. Schools seem to be geared up to reopen in the fall, but a second wave will close them down quickly. I think the next two years will be very different for educators across the board, but especially music educators. It might be a good idea to take that other job right now, who knows?
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