Medieval military trombonist.

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8parktoollover
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Medieval military trombonist.

Post by 8parktoollover » Thu Aug 01, 2019 11:20 am

Many of us have probably seen this drawing. I'm interested in it's history and backstory. And most importantly- what kind of trombone this is. It couldn't be a sackbutt because it has a trombone flare. Iv'e also never heard of a trombone with that kind of loop on the slide. The closest thing I know about is the loop on the bell section of a bass sackbutt. Also the way he's holding with the slide parallel to the bell suggests that the artist doesn't really know what a trombone looks like and that he is probably a non musician.
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JohnL
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Re: Medieval military trombonist.

Post by JohnL » Thu Aug 01, 2019 7:45 pm

8parktoollover wrote:
Thu Aug 01, 2019 11:20 am
...the way he's holding with the slide parallel to the bell suggests that the artist doesn't really know what a trombone looks like and that he is probably a non musician.
Highly likely.
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BGuttman
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Re: Medieval military trombonist.

Post by BGuttman » Thu Aug 01, 2019 7:51 pm

The musician is not from the Medieval period. The trombone was invented around 1450 -- too late for Medieval.

From the clothing I would suspect late 16th Century to early 17th Century.

TTF had a thread of early trombone graphics. Don't know if Matt managed to save it.
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Re: Medieval military trombonist.

Post by Mikebmiller » Thu Aug 01, 2019 9:57 pm

That’s the latest Shires valve design.
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Re: Medieval military trombonist.

Post by LeTromboniste » Fri Aug 02, 2019 1:44 am

Lots and lots of old pictures of trumpets and trombones have flares that make them look 200 years later than they actually are. Artists exaggerated defining features of objects to make it obvious what they are picturing, so we always have to be careful about how we interpret bell flares in depictions.

Also there are probably as many depicted ways to hold a trombone as there are depictions of trombones, so don't lose to much sleep on the grip either.

This is a trombone with crooks in (they appear to be between the slide and bell, not on the slide, by the way, they are just very oddly drawn). Very similar in fact to the 1636 depiction of a trombone with crooks in Mersenne (see below). There is a number of surviving instruments that are tenors in A but which can be crooked down to be used as basses, and conversely basses in D than can be de-crooked to be used as tenors or small basses. Old sackbuts are very flexible in their configuration (in fact almost nothing is soldered).

I too would think it's from the 17th century based on the clothing, general style and the resemblance of the instrument to Mersenne's example (the artist might have very well based their design on Mersenne, as it was a widely circulated encyclopedia). Of course it's an educated guess at best.

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Re: Medieval military trombonist.

Post by HowardW » Fri Aug 02, 2019 3:04 am

It is important to remember that images of trombones (or of anything for that matter) from before the mid-19th century are not photographs. This means that in viewing them, you have to take into account a certain amount of artistic license. In this case, the artist, Arnold van Westerhout, intentionally gave this image of a "tromba spezzata" an ancient Roman look. This is from a whole series of engravings showing various instruments that appeared in Filippo Bonanni's Gabinetto armonico pieno d'instrumenti sonori (Rome, 1722/23). The engravings in Bonanni's book were later copied by another engraver for Jean-Benjamin de La Borde's Essai sur la musique ancienne et moderne (Paris, 1780); there your "medieval trombonist" appears among the "Trompettes Antiques."

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timothy42b
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Re: Medieval military trombonist.

Post by timothy42b » Fri Aug 02, 2019 4:08 am

He's also wearing a sword of some kind, which seems unlikely. They're pretty expensive, and musicians have rarely made enough money for luxuries like that.
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Re: Medieval military trombonist.

Post by Walleye » Fri Aug 02, 2019 9:38 am

timothy42b wrote:
Fri Aug 02, 2019 4:08 am
He's also wearing a sword of some kind, which seems unlikely. They're pretty expensive, and musicians have rarely made enough money for luxuries like that.
Musicians as late as the Civil War were issued swords. It was not unusual for a field musician to be armed..
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Re: Medieval military trombonist.

Post by timothy42b » Fri Aug 02, 2019 7:27 pm

Walleye wrote:
Fri Aug 02, 2019 9:38 am
timothy42b wrote:
Fri Aug 02, 2019 4:08 am
He's also wearing a sword of some kind, which seems unlikely. They're pretty expensive, and musicians have rarely made enough money for luxuries like that.
Musicians as late as the Civil War were issued swords. It was not unusual for a field musician to be armed..
If this was from 1822 I could maybe buy that. But in 1722? Highly unlikely.
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Re: Medieval military trombonist.

Post by Walleye » Sat Aug 03, 2019 5:46 am

timothy42b wrote:
Fri Aug 02, 2019 7:27 pm
Walleye wrote:
Fri Aug 02, 2019 9:38 am

Musicians as late as the Civil War were issued swords. It was not unusual for a field musician to be armed..
If this was from 1822 I could maybe buy that. But in 1722? Highly unlikely.
I am certainly no expert on "armed" musicians and I'm not sure what part of the comment you couldn't buy, but the first American Military Band was formed in 1756. Their dress included a sword.. The old testament chronciles several examples of instruments and choirs in battle. Hard to imagine leading an army without any means of protection... Lastly, just because someone is wearing a sword in 1722 doesn't necessarily indicate military service. I believe, and again I'm not an expert, that swords were worn for ceremonial dress, and personal protection, as well as them being stylish for the time..
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Re: Medieval military trombonist.

Post by BGuttman » Sat Aug 03, 2019 6:29 am

My guess was for protection in case things got ugly :evil:
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Re: Medieval military trombonist.

Post by timothy42b » Sat Aug 03, 2019 6:50 am

Walleye wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 5:46 am
Lastly, just because someone is wearing a sword in 1722 doesn't necessarily indicate military service. I believe, and again I'm not an expert, that swords were worn for ceremonial dress, and personal protection, as well as them being stylish for the time..
Yes, that's my point. This does not appear to be a soldier, who might have been issued a sword. As a musician he would not have been rich enough to buy a sword for ceremonial dress, or if he ever did would certainly have had to pawn it somewhere along the line.
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Re: Medieval military trombonist.

Post by Schlitz » Sun Aug 04, 2019 1:01 am

BGuttman wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 6:29 am
My guess was for protection in case things got ugly :evil:
Musician wearing a sword? Supervisory position over a Db Piccolo player.......
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Re: Medieval military trombonist.

Post by BGuttman » Sun Aug 04, 2019 8:10 am

Schlitz wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 1:01 am
BGuttman wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 6:29 am
My guess was for protection in case things got ugly :evil:
Musician wearing a sword? Supervisory position over a Db Piccolo player.......
At that time it would have been a garklein flotlein (sopranino recorder) and much shriller than any piccolo. They are actually good people repellents.
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Re: Medieval military trombonist.

Post by Geordie » Sun Aug 04, 2019 11:06 am

BGuttman wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 6:29 am
My guess was for protection in case things got ugly :evil:
Yes, I’ve done gigs like that too ...
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Re: Medieval military trombonist.

Post by Jimprindle » Sun Aug 04, 2019 2:18 pm

Walleye wrote:
Fri Aug 02, 2019 9:38 am
timothy42b wrote:
Fri Aug 02, 2019 4:08 am
He's also wearing a sword of some kind, which seems unlikely. They're pretty expensive, and musicians have rarely made enough money for luxuries like that.
Musicians as late as the Civil War were issued swords. It was not unusual for a field musician to be armed..
When I was in an Army band during the Vietnam War, I stayed stateside the entire time. But band personnel returning from VN had stories of being put on guard duty with weapons in their off-time, sometimes involved with active shooting, fragging, bombing, warlike stuff. Some of those guys definitely had PTSD (although they did not call it that back then) from what they saw and experienced. Musicians are not safe in a war zone. It would be best to have a weapon just in case.

Loud pedal tones might not be enough :| :mrgreen:
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Re: Medieval military trombonist.

Post by Splendour » Thu Aug 15, 2019 6:18 am

Armed trombonists / sacqueboutiers are nothing new:

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Re: Medieval military trombonist.

Post by 2bobone » Thu Aug 15, 2019 7:01 pm

In reference to Bruce's observation about the "Garklein" of the recorder family : The sopranino recorder is actually larger than the "Garklein" and actually sounds sweet in comparison. The "Garklein" will even send D Flat piccolo players running with their hands tightly clasped over their ears ! Neither will lull an infant into a blissful sleep.
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Re: Medieval military trombonist.

Post by timothy42b » Fri Aug 16, 2019 7:23 am

2bobone wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 7:01 pm
In reference to Bruce's observation about the "Garklein" of the recorder family : The sopranino recorder is actually larger than the "Garklein" and actually sounds sweet in comparison. The "Garklein" will even send D Flat piccolo players running with their hands tightly clasped over their ears ! Neither will lull an infant into a blissful sleep.
My garklein is the only one of my recorders I haven't played in public. I wish it had more notes though, the range is much less than my others. I have garklein through tenor, never tried the bass.
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Re: Medieval military trombonist.

Post by HowardW » Fri Aug 16, 2019 12:33 pm

Splendour wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 6:18 am
Armed trombonists / sacqueboutiers are nothing new:
Sorry, but the trombonist is not armed.

The thing you see hanging down along his left leg is the trombone case -- actually a leather cone into which the bell section can be inserted; not visible are two leather tubes in which the slide tubes were stowed. (Trombones at that time were not soldered together, but had friction joints that could be easily separated.) Notice also that the swords worn by the other riders have very distinct hilts, something the trombone case doesn't have.

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Re: Medieval military trombonist.

Post by BGuttman » Fri Aug 16, 2019 12:55 pm

I also like how the horse on the right does not appear to appreciate the sounds from the "band".
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Re: Medieval military trombonist.

Post by heinzgries » Fri Aug 16, 2019 3:12 pm

make weapons to trombones :good:
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Re: Medieval military trombonist.

Post by Pre59 » Fri Aug 16, 2019 3:58 pm

Bringing things up to date.

https://youtu.be/oK1EAAp7pok?t=28
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Re: Medieval military trombonist.

Post by 2bobone » Fri Aug 16, 2019 5:12 pm

That is SO-OOOOOO Cool !! LOVE it !! :D :D :D
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Re: Medieval military trombonist.

Post by 8parktoollover » Sat Aug 17, 2019 8:50 pm

I would assume that it is quite difficult to play horseback
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