What are your thoughts about any tonguing between the teeth excepting pedal tones?
Tonguing
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ttf_usafband1976
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ttf_BGuttman
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Tonguing
Alan Raph described moving his tongue position more forward the lower he went. But tonguing between the teeth tends to create explosive attacks that are not musical.
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ttf_sabutin
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Tonguing
Quote from: usafband1976 on Nov 25, 2016, 03:05PMWhat are your thoughts about any tonguing between the teeth excepting pedal tones?
"Tonguing between the teeth" has a great deal to do with how large one's teeth are and the arch(es) of the tongue, setting(s) of the jaw and relative mass(es) of the lips that are necessary for any given player to play any given note at any given volume. Big ol' horse teeth are easy to consistently tongue behind, but smaller ones often pose a problem.
Solution?
Sure.
Don't listen to people who tell you "where" to put your tongue. Experiment. Observe yourself. What works best for you is all you need to know.
This is the essence of the way that Carmine Caruso taught.
Deductive rather than inductive reasoning.
When Carmine gave every student his "Six Notes" exercise, he not only didn't tell them how to play it in a physical manner, he totally refused to answer questions on that level. When it began to sound good, the student's tongue was doing its job(s) where it needed to do them to make it sound good. End of chapter. Next chapter...usually his intervals and harmonics exercises...the same story.
The same approach can be used with any studies...Arbans, Rochuts, the Bach Cello Suites, scales, arpeggios, flexibilities and so on. As recent MRI studies of brass players have illustrated, the tongue performs acrobatics on an almost incomprehensible level during even the simplest brass playing activities. "Tongue and blow, kid. Tongue and blow. That's all there is to it," said John Coffey to his students. "Song and Wind" said Arnold Jacobs. "Just do this exercise this way" said Carmine Caruso.
Yup.
Precisely.
Only a genetic clone or identical twin would have exactly the same tongue positions as do any of us.
Try everything and use what works.
For you.
Bet on it.
Later...
S.
"Tonguing between the teeth" has a great deal to do with how large one's teeth are and the arch(es) of the tongue, setting(s) of the jaw and relative mass(es) of the lips that are necessary for any given player to play any given note at any given volume. Big ol' horse teeth are easy to consistently tongue behind, but smaller ones often pose a problem.
Solution?
Sure.
Don't listen to people who tell you "where" to put your tongue. Experiment. Observe yourself. What works best for you is all you need to know.
This is the essence of the way that Carmine Caruso taught.
Deductive rather than inductive reasoning.
When Carmine gave every student his "Six Notes" exercise, he not only didn't tell them how to play it in a physical manner, he totally refused to answer questions on that level. When it began to sound good, the student's tongue was doing its job(s) where it needed to do them to make it sound good. End of chapter. Next chapter...usually his intervals and harmonics exercises...the same story.
The same approach can be used with any studies...Arbans, Rochuts, the Bach Cello Suites, scales, arpeggios, flexibilities and so on. As recent MRI studies of brass players have illustrated, the tongue performs acrobatics on an almost incomprehensible level during even the simplest brass playing activities. "Tongue and blow, kid. Tongue and blow. That's all there is to it," said John Coffey to his students. "Song and Wind" said Arnold Jacobs. "Just do this exercise this way" said Carmine Caruso.
Yup.
Precisely.
Only a genetic clone or identical twin would have exactly the same tongue positions as do any of us.
Try everything and use what works.
For you.
Bet on it.
Later...
S.
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ttf_usafband1976
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Tonguing
Sam: As per usual, you helped me. You are absolutely right, I've grown a bit wary of "how to" and "where to" philosophies of teaching. The reason I asked was because one of my heroes, Jay Friedman, does tongue between his teeth and he told me Bud Herseth did, also. It does work for me, but I am not Jay Friedman! Past teachers steadfastly preached against tonguing between the teeth. Jay and I practiced spitting spit balls in his living room! BYW, what a kind, humble, and generous gent! And, he is his own man . . .
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ttf_Geezerhorn
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Tonguing
Then there is tonguing from the bottom teeth, or anchoring the tongue on the bottom teeth and tonguing with the middle of the tongue.
Isn't the goal to momentarily interrupt the continuous air flow without causing any problems? Seems to me that whatever works, works. Not sure how multiple tonguing would come into play on these "alternate" tonguing methods, though.
...Geezer
Isn't the goal to momentarily interrupt the continuous air flow without causing any problems? Seems to me that whatever works, works. Not sure how multiple tonguing would come into play on these "alternate" tonguing methods, though.
...Geezer
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ttf_sabutin
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Tonguing
Quote from: usafband1976 on Nov 29, 2016, 08:12AMSam: As per usual, you helped me. You are absolutely right, I've grown a bit wary of "how to" and "where to" philosophies of teaching. The reason I asked was because one of my heroes, Jay Friedman, does tongue between his teeth and he told me Bud Herseth did, also. It does work for me, but I am not Jay Friedman! Past teachers steadfastly preached against tonguing between the teeth. Jay and I practiced spitting spit balls in his living room! BYW, what a kind, humble, and generous gent! And, he is his own man . . .
I cannot tell you how many times older...non-college misedumacated...brass players used the idea "like spitting a watermelon seed out of your mouth" to describe how to tongue.
Glad to have been of help.
S.
I cannot tell you how many times older...non-college misedumacated...brass players used the idea "like spitting a watermelon seed out of your mouth" to describe how to tongue.
Glad to have been of help.
S.
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ttf_BGuttman
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Tonguing
I got the "spitting seed" lecture from Jerry Callet. Tried it and found it didn't work for me at all. Neither did tonguing between my teeth (very explosive attacks).
To each his own, I guess.
To each his own, I guess.
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ttf_bigbassbone1
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Tonguing
One of my playig areas that needs constant refinement is my articulation. I went through many teachers hearing that i needed clearer attacks etc and heard many different variations of where to tongue and blow for a very long time. Fed up, one day i started tonguing betwewn my teeth and shortly after i had practiced that and refined it a bit (i never told anyone thats what i was doing) recieved many compliments on the clarity of my articulation and the control i had. I still do it. Personally i struggle to get an "explosive" attack so any help i can get when that sound is required works for me.
Just experiment, hear an attack that you admire and wish to capture in your sound and do simple articulation exercises trying different tongue positions and ways of blowing until you hear the sound you want. When you get it, practice being able to expect to hear it every time you play in any register at any dynamic. I dont think its that important what you end up physically doing with your tongue if whatever it is is repeatable and gets a consistently good result.
Just experiment, hear an attack that you admire and wish to capture in your sound and do simple articulation exercises trying different tongue positions and ways of blowing until you hear the sound you want. When you get it, practice being able to expect to hear it every time you play in any register at any dynamic. I dont think its that important what you end up physically doing with your tongue if whatever it is is repeatable and gets a consistently good result.
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ttf_bigbassbone1
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- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:34 pm
Tonguing
One of my playig areas that needs constant refinement is my articulation. I went through many teachers hearing that i needed clearer attacks etc and heard many different variations of where to tongue and blow for a very long time. Fed up, one day i started tonguing betwewn my teeth and shortly after i had practiced that and refined it a bit (i never told anyone thats what i was doing) recieved many compliments on the clarity of my articulation and the control i had. I still do it. Personally i struggle to get an "explosive" attack so any help i can get when that sound is required works for me.
Just experiment, hear an attack that you admire and wish to capture in your sound and do simple articulation exercises trying different tongue positions and ways of blowing until you hear the sound you want. When you get it, practice being able to expect to hear it every time you play in any register at any dynamic. I dont think its that important what you end up physically doing with your tongue if whatever it is is repeatable and gets a consistently good result.
Just experiment, hear an attack that you admire and wish to capture in your sound and do simple articulation exercises trying different tongue positions and ways of blowing until you hear the sound you want. When you get it, practice being able to expect to hear it every time you play in any register at any dynamic. I dont think its that important what you end up physically doing with your tongue if whatever it is is repeatable and gets a consistently good result.