What candidate do you think will be our next president?

ttf_robcat2075
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What candidate do you think will be our next president?

Post by ttf_robcat2075 » Sun May 15, 2016 9:53 am

Quote from: MoominDave on May 15, 2016, 09:42AMHypothetical: If a candidate becomes medically unable to stand after they have collected sufficient delegates to see the other candidates off, what happens? Do they perhaps recount the delegates from all the districts with the votes for that candidate removed?

QuoteIf a candidate becomes unable to continue before the convention, the convention is at liberty to choose anybody else.I don't think there is a party rule for that and there certainly is no law on that.


A responsible candidate would step aside and release his delegates to vote for someone else, but AFAIK neither party has an official mechanism for such a situation. If he has the bound delegates to win on the first ballot, he wins.

Thomas Eagleton gave up the VP nom in '72 after he was revealed to be a former psych patient but I don't think they had or now have any official way to dump a candidate like that.
ttf_BGuttman
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What candidate do you think will be our next president?

Post by ttf_BGuttman » Sun May 15, 2016 11:18 am

There certainly is no law about it, but if a candidate were to become permanently incapacitated (like a stroke) or die, bound or not the delegates aren't required to vote for him.

And we don't do a "redos" on the Primaries either.  Our Election Day is set as the 2nd Tuesday in November and each party will submit a candidate.  This is a difference from Britain (and many other countries) where you can call a new election at any time.
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What candidate do you think will be our next president?

Post by ttf_anonymous » Sun May 15, 2016 11:19 am

I Hope that this poll is wrong.  I do believe that "bs artist Trump" can and will beat " witch Hillary".
ttf_BGuttman
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What candidate do you think will be our next president?

Post by ttf_BGuttman » Sun May 15, 2016 11:21 am

Quote from: SteveP on May 15, 2016, 11:19AMI Hope that this poll is wrong.  I do believe that "bs artist Trump" can and will beat " witch Hillary".

I think the Donald has higher negatives than Evita Hillary.  That means that more people will vote for Hillary as a protest against Trump than will vote for Trump as a protest against Hillary.

It's really sad when the two most likely candidates are encumbered with so much baggage.
ttf_ddickerson
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What candidate do you think will be our next president?

Post by ttf_ddickerson » Sun May 15, 2016 11:26 am

Is it BS Artist Trump or John Baron, or John Barron, or John Miller?

I'm confused, not sure who to vote for.

ttf_robcat2075
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What candidate do you think will be our next president?

Post by ttf_robcat2075 » Sun May 15, 2016 11:33 am

Quote from: BGuttman on May 15, 2016, 11:18AMThere certainly is no law about it, but if a candidate were to become permanently incapacitated (like a stroke) or die, bound or not the delegates aren't required to vote for him.

You can cite that, right?

I'm extremely doubtful that delegates are automatically released just because a candidate is reported sick.

On whose say-so would this happen?




ttf_Baron von Bone
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What candidate do you think will be our next president?

Post by ttf_Baron von Bone » Sun May 15, 2016 11:45 am

Quote from: robcat2075 on May 15, 2016, 11:33AMQuote from: BGuttman on May 15, 2016, 11:18AMThere certainly is no law about it, but if a candidate were to become permanently incapacitated (like a stroke) or die, bound or not the delegates aren't required to vote for him.I'm extremely doubtful that delegates are automatically released just because a candidate is reported sick.
Notice a slight difference between what you're arguing against and what Bruce actually posted there?
 
Eh?
ttf_BGuttman
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What candidate do you think will be our next president?

Post by ttf_BGuttman » Sun May 15, 2016 11:57 am

Robert Kennedy was assassinated in 1968 in the middle of the Presidential Primary race.  I'm sure his "pledged delegates" were not required to vote for him at the Convention.
ttf_Ellrod
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What candidate do you think will be our next president?

Post by ttf_Ellrod » Sun May 15, 2016 12:22 pm

Trump was born in 1946, and was in his early 20s during the Vietnam years. I assume he didn't serve in Vietnam. How did he manage to avoid serving?
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What candidate do you think will be our next president?

Post by ttf_Eastcheap » Sun May 15, 2016 12:27 pm

Quote from: BGuttman on May 15, 2016, 11:57AMRobert Kennedy was assassinated in 1968 in the middle of the Presidential Primary race.  I'm sure his "pledged delegates" were not required to vote for him at the Convention.

Most of them voted for a guy who didn't even run in the primaries; Chicago was a right mess.

Right now, my gut says Clinton, for better or worse, but one or more Wallaces in the mix could really screw things up.  Even without, there's so much sheer bipartisan hatred of both Clinton and Trump that it's impossible to anticipate what will happen.

I've not seen or heard of anything like it since, well, 1968.

Man, Nixon has never looked so good.  Image
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Post by ttf_BGuttman » Sun May 15, 2016 1:22 pm

Quote from: Ellrod on May 15, 2016, 12:22PMTrump was born in 1946, and was in his early 20s during the Vietnam years. I assume he didn't serve in Vietnam. How did he manage to avoid serving?

Probably the same way I did.  I had a student deferment until I graduated college and then was working for a Government contractor.  Got a high enough number in the lottery.  Note that for my Draft Board (may have been his as well) you were safe if you were over 195.

Of course Trump's daddy had lots of money and maybe some cash exchanged hands so sonny boy got excused.
ttf_djdekok
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Post by ttf_djdekok » Wed May 18, 2016 8:35 pm

Quote from: BGuttman on May 15, 2016, 08:44AMSo you prefer BS Artist Trump? Image
I have said in other forums that I think this is the weakest field of candidates across the board since I started voting in 1980.  I don't trust Hillary. While I find a lot of what Trump has done during the primaries repugnant, (my previous candidate of choice, Sen. Rubio (who I HOPE will run in 2020) dropped out, giving a memorable concession speech and giving me hope for the future of the GOP), I prefer him to HRC.
ttf_patrickosmith
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What candidate do you think will be our next president?

Post by ttf_patrickosmith » Thu May 19, 2016 1:41 am

Quote from: BGuttman on May 15, 2016, 08:44AMSo you prefer BS Artist Trump? Image
In my opinion, the best politicians are skilled tellers of white lies. This is a trait shared by the best BS artists and the best salespeople. Politicians are becoming less and less leaders and more and more salespersons.
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What candidate do you think will be our next president?

Post by ttf_MoominDave » Thu May 19, 2016 3:36 am

But should we encourage them to do this by voting for the BSiest ones? An adept politician is able to maintain an elastic relationship with the truth, but one worth following never forgets that they are doing so in the service of the people rather than their own self-interest. The US deserves waaaay better than Trump, who is possibly the most self-interested individual I've ever observed. Goodness, it deserves better than Hillary Clinton, but if the choice is between her and the lying, bullying Trump, then surely the choice is immediately clear for Clinton.

After 6 years of rule by Public Relations under David Cameron in the UK, and 10 years of it under Tony Blair, I can tell you that ruling politicians that are good at lying to other national politicians are also good at lying to those that they are responsible for.

Better luck with your presidential candidates in 2020, USA. We are stuck with Cameron's Conservatives until that year too.


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Post by ttf_patrickosmith » Thu May 19, 2016 4:24 am

Quote from: MoominDave on May 19, 2016, 03:36AMBut should we encourage them to do this by voting for the BSiest ones? An adept politician is able to maintain an elastic relationship with the truth, but one worth following never forgets that they are doing so in the service of the people rather than their own self-interest. The US deserves waaaay better than Trump, who is possibly the most self-interested individual I've ever observed. Goodness, it deserves better than Hillary Clinton, but if the choice is between her and the lying, bullying Trump, then surely the choice is immediately clear for Clinton.

After 6 years of rule by Public Relations under David Cameron in the UK, and 10 years of it under Tony Blair, I can tell you that ruling politicians that are good at lying to other national politicians are also good at lying to those that they are responsible for.

Better luck with your presidential candidates in 2020, USA. We are stuck with Cameron's Conservatives until that year too.


Yes, it is a poor choice and we deserve better but honestly who would want that job? Anyway my point is that they are *all* liars. I expect them all to lie. The discriminator between candidates should not be "who is the best BS artists (Clinton vs. Trump)" but another set of traits/positions.

One more point: everybody and everything is self serving. That should not be a discriminator either.
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Post by ttf_MoominDave » Thu May 19, 2016 5:20 am

It is obvious that not all politicians prioritise self-interest equally or lie with the same motives. For those as extreme as Trump, it appears to crowd out the sense of duty almost entirely. The currently-ruling UK Conservative party have hit on a wizard scheme - they run down state assets that were built with public money by underfunding, then when the assets look a bit ratty they give them away to their mates to asset-strip in the name of competition. Then when they leave politics, said mates give them lucrative 'consultant' positions to the asset-stripping companies in thanks for the legislative gifts.

That is self-interest in action in politics, and a socially dangerous force it is too. Does the USA really want to gift Trump 4 years in which to abuse the office of POTUS with similar shenanigans?
ttf_patrickosmith
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What candidate do you think will be our next president?

Post by ttf_patrickosmith » Thu May 19, 2016 5:31 am

Quote from: MoominDave on May 19, 2016, 05:20AMIt is obvious that not all politicians prioritise self-interest equally or lie with the same motives.
--snip

It is not at all obvious to glean truth or motives from expert liars. Both candidates are liars. Both candidate have self-interested motives.
ttf_Eastcheap
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What candidate do you think will be our next president?

Post by ttf_Eastcheap » Thu May 19, 2016 5:40 am

Quote from: BGuttman on May 15, 2016, 01:22PMProbably the same way I did.  I had a student deferment until I graduated college

Also, after graduation, Trump managed to wangle a medical deferment.

QuoteNote that for my Draft Board (may have been his as well) you were safe if you were over 195.

356 is the number I've seen for Trump.
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Post by ttf_MoominDave » Thu May 19, 2016 5:42 am

Quote from: patrickosmith on May 19, 2016, 05:31AMIt is not at all obvious to glean truth or motives from expert liars. Both candidates are liars. Both candidate have self-interested motives.

So we shouldn't try to pin them down? I'm getting a little baffled here by what you're saying.
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Post by ttf_patrickosmith » Thu May 19, 2016 7:58 am

Quote from: MoominDave on May 19, 2016, 05:42AMSo we shouldn't try to pin them down? I'm getting a little baffled here by what you're saying.

The job of a politician, diplomat, public relations expert, salesperson, lawyer and the like is to expertly tell their side of the story and compel others to move in the direction they prefer to support their own motives. They will hide the truth when it does not support their self-interested motives.

It shouldn't be baffling at all. It is very simple. To keep it very simple: they *all* lie. It is naive to believe that *any* of them are not BS artists.
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What candidate do you think will be our next president?

Post by ttf_MoominDave » Thu May 19, 2016 8:18 am

That's not what I'm baffled about. Misunderstandings are multiplying here. Perhaps we should start again:

You wrote: "Anyway my point is that they are *all* liars. I expect them all to lie. The discriminator between candidates should not be "who is the best BS artists (Clinton vs. Trump)" but another set of traits/positions.

One more point: everybody and everything is self serving. That should not be a discriminator either."

This reads to me that you are saying that we should not attempt to judge politicians on their words and actions at all. Just throw out 100% of them. And judge them based on some other unspecified metric (but what is it?).

I have more optimism than this - not 100% of successful high level politicians are shysters and fraudsters motivated mainly by personal gain, and I maintain that it is often much more possible than your words suggest to spot when an attempted gulling is taking place and which of them are making out like bandits. At least it is here - perhaps the US system is less good at holding politicians to account?

Sure, most of them are appallingly untrustworthy people, and the skills of an appallingly untrustworthy person are needed to survive in that world. But that makes the respect due to those that survive while not being a dreadful person all the greater - and increases the encouragement that we should give to those that seem decent people (which is not at all the same thing as things like "having the common touch" - many candidates in the US fake a 'folksy' charm that deceives many - e.g. GWB).
ttf_Ellrod
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What candidate do you think will be our next president?

Post by ttf_Ellrod » Thu May 19, 2016 8:56 am

Trump

I also think the US has lost its mind.
ttf_Russ White
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Post by ttf_Russ White » Thu May 19, 2016 9:15 am

Quote from: MoominDave on May 19, 2016, 05:20AM

 The currently-ruling UK Conservative party have hit on a wizard scheme - they run down state assets that were built with public money by underfunding, then when the assets look a bit ratty they give them away to their mates to asset-strip in the name of competition. Then when they leave politics, said mates give them lucrative 'consultant' positions to the asset-stripping companies in thanks for the legislative gifts.


THat has been the GOP modus operandi for more than a generation.
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Post by ttf_MoominDave » Thu May 19, 2016 9:31 am

The US Republican party and the UK Conservative party have for a long time been instinctive fellow travellers. So often our right wing looks to the non-evangelical portion of your right wing for inspiration. That said though, the privatisation of public utilities in this manner in the UK has been going on since the 1980s - it's part of the project launched by Thatcher and Reagan. But it has truly spun out of control in the last year or two here as the Conservatives actually take on the much-beloved NHS and their full agenda starts to dawn on people (too late.. too late...).
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What candidate do you think will be our next president?

Post by ttf_Dan Hine » Fri May 20, 2016 4:11 pm

I'll be voting for the two term governor.  A vote which will allow me to sleep at night.  Why so many people seem to be saying "I'll vote for ____ even though it's a terrible choice" is beyond my comprehension.  Most of the country seems to be unhappy with their government but yet they keep voting for the same damn people...   Image
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Post by ttf_BGuttman » Fri May 20, 2016 4:24 pm

I'm assuming you mean the Libertarian.  He's a viable alternative for any dissatisfied Republican.  Except he doesn't want Government in our bedrooms, bathrooms, or women's reproductive organs. Image
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Post by ttf_Dan Hine » Fri May 20, 2016 4:37 pm

Quote from: BGuttman on May 20, 2016, 04:24PMHe's a viable alternative for any dissatisfied Republican. 

I'd say Gary Johnson is a viable alternative for any dissatisfied American.  In fact, I'd bet that many people would be surprised who they side with if they looked at the issues, decided where they stand on them, and then narrowed down their choices without any regard to party line.

Instead, we watch TV, think it has to be Clinton or Trump, and repeat the process of being pissed at our government.
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What candidate do you think will be our next president?

Post by ttf_Russ White » Fri May 20, 2016 7:51 pm

My personal convictions actually line up pretty exactly of those of the Green Party, and I will vote for any Green Party candidate at any level lower than statewide. THat said, we live with a two party system, and one of those parties is TOXIC. I WILL vote Democrat at all levels statewide and above in simple self defense. PERIOD.

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Post by ttf_Dan Hine » Fri May 20, 2016 10:01 pm

Image
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Post by ttf_patrickosmith » Sat May 21, 2016 4:04 am

Quote from: Dan Hine on May 20, 2016, 10:01PMImage
Hilarious. Where's this from?
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Post by ttf_BGuttman » Sat May 21, 2016 5:50 am

That's a Toles cartoon from the Washington Post, October 2010.

Maybe he picked it up from Daryl Cagle's site (www.cagle.com).
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Post by ttf_Dan Hine » Sat May 21, 2016 10:00 am

Quote from: patrickosmith on May 21, 2016, 04:04AMHilarious. Where's this from?

I don't know where it is from originally.  I just new I had seen it somewhere and started Google image searching until I found it.  I'm glad you found it humorous but I also hope you saw how true it is.
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Post by ttf_Russ White » Sun May 22, 2016 4:57 am

It is funny, but it is not particularly accurate. IT is, however what those who pull the strings in the GOP want you to believe. Positive, progressive things actually DO get done when Dems control the Congress. We have 50 years of evidence of the truth of that from 1930-1980. And, 2008-2010 was the most productive two years in this country since 1980.

ttf_Dan Hine
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Post by ttf_Dan Hine » Sun May 22, 2016 7:30 am

Quote from: Russ White on May 22, 2016, 04:57AMIT is, however what those who pull the strings in the GOP want you to believe.


Yeah.  That's it. Strange though.  The comic depicts Republicans being the problem too.  That seems like an odd thing for the GOP to want me to believe.  Image


ttf_Russ White
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Post by ttf_Russ White » Sun May 22, 2016 8:59 am

THe GOP didn't post the cartoon.

ttf_patrickosmith
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Post by ttf_patrickosmith » Sun May 22, 2016 9:03 am

Quote from: Dan Hine on May 21, 2016, 10:00AMI don't know where it is from originally.  I just new I had seen it somewhere and started Google image searching until I found it.  I'm glad you found it humorous but I also hope you saw how true it is.
Of course I see how true and pathetic it is. That's what makes it funny. As Heinlein identified in his book, A Stranger in a Strange Land, humor includes three elements: surprise, truth, sadness (or in this case, "pathetic-ness" if that's even a word).
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Post by ttf_Dan Hine » Sun May 22, 2016 9:56 am

Quote from: Russ White on May 22, 2016, 08:59AMTHe GOP didn't post the cartoon.


What point are you trying to make?  Do you even know or are you just trolling?
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Post by ttf_Russ White » Mon May 23, 2016 2:58 pm

Quote from: Dan Hine on May 22, 2016, 09:56AMWhat point are you trying to make?  Do you even know or are you just trolling?

THat it is in the interests of those who run the GOP for the average American to believe there is no difference in the outcomes regardless of which party is in power. Since Bill CLinton sold out the unions and delivered the Democrat Party to the same puppeteers who have run the GOP since its inception, the difference between the parties has shrunken immensely, but it is still there. One need only contrast the productivity of the Congress from 2008-2010 with that of those since then to see it. Trump may win this election because the millennials, who just became the largest generation, see, and are the victims of, what a disaster the baby boom generation has made of things, and the establishment they have let take control. THey want no part of it, and if enough of them are willing to vote for a shallow, misogynistic, bullying demagogue, Hillary and that establishment are in big trouble.
ttf_Russ White
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Post by ttf_Russ White » Mon May 23, 2016 2:58 pm

Quote from: Dan Hine on May 22, 2016, 09:56AMWhat point are you trying to make?  Do you even know or are you just trolling?

THat it is in the interests of those who run the GOP for the average American to believe there is no difference in the outcomes regardless of which party is in power. Since Bill CLinton sold out the unions and delivered the Democrat Party to the same puppeteers who have run the GOP since its inception, the difference between the parties has shrunken immensely, but it is still there. One need only contrast the productivity of the Congress from 2008-2010 with that of those since then to see it. Trump may win this election because the millennials, who just became the largest generation, see, and are the victims of, what a disaster the baby boom generation has made of things, and the establishment they have let take control. THey want no part of it, and if enough of them are willing to vote for a shallow, misogynistic, bullying demagogue, Hillary and that establishment are in big trouble.
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