Theory---Largest..or Smallest?

ttf_Slidennis · Post by **ttf_Slidennis** » Sun Oct 28, 2012 5:44 am

I went all the way from a Bach 12C for 15 years to a Denis Wick 2NAL... with my Bass.
When the muscles of the lips and the belly are sthrengtening, I think that the mpc will be the one that suits the trombone and not your face any more... (Sabutin - Sam Burtis - says so...) Excepted for the size of the rim, maybe... 3G for me at the moment...

And if you like large rims with fairly shallow cups and large backbores, the only way to go is custom...

Doug Elliott and the likes... (Warburton, Stomvi, etc...)

My take on it...

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Wed Nov 28, 2012 4:01 am

I play on my personal custom mouthpiece large rim, double cup, small shank best mouthpiece I've had

ttf_Mahlerbone · Post by **ttf_Mahlerbone** » Wed Nov 28, 2012 4:38 am

I get the most benefits when I play on the largest mouthpiece I can handle. So I've moved from an Elliott XT 104 to a SB 105. That's basically a 3G rim to a 2G rim. My sound is now more consistent in all ranges, articulations are improved, low range sounds more full, and I can still get a solid high D and Eb when I need it.

On bass I've been experimenting with a Laskey 93 with very good results. That's supposedly even larger than the Elliott 114 rim that I have. When my new bass setup comes back from Shires I'm going to try a 1D and 1MD.

ttf_usafband1976 · Post by **ttf_usafband1976** » Wed Dec 26, 2012 6:03 pm

I use a rim that allows me to slur from low B flat to high D, with freedom and a resonant low register. Some do this with a Bach 15, some a rim the width of a 1 1/2 G. It has to do with the length of your top lip, Whether you play more on the top lip or more on the bottom. It also has to do with how your lips line up on your teeth. Would Kai Winding play on a 3G just given his embouchure? I doubt it. And I would not think that Mr. Alessi would use a 12C unless he were playing an alto trombone, check out the length of his top lip. Short of it? it is like shoes: find one that fits your face and allows you to get around the horn without having to move your mouthpiece all over your face.

ttf_discus nerd · Post by **ttf_discus nerd** » Thu Dec 27, 2012 5:16 am

Fitting your face is something that was never discussed back in the day. Using a Bach 5G I spent most of my undergrad years trying to achieve the correct embouchure. I had limited range and flexibility. I never quite got it "right" until many years later when I started playing the tuba. Then as if by magic my embouchure with a Wick 1XL on tuba looked correct, my range actually increased, and lip trills were no longer an issue. Who knew...

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Fri Nov 29, 2013 8:34 pm

I am in no way an expert on the matter, but I recently upgraded my mouthpiece from a schilke 51 to a Griego-Alessi 3F and can play high on the much larger mouthpiece. Also my tone and intonation are much better on the 3F, so really it depends on the player.

ttf_Matt K · Post by **ttf_Matt K** » Sat Nov 30, 2013 11:38 am

Quote from: CG2198 on Nov 29, 2013, 08:34PMI am in no way an expert on the matter, but I recently upgraded my mouthpiece from a schilke 51 to a Griego-Alessi 3F and can play high on the much larger mouthpiece. Also my tone and intonation are much better on the 3F, so really it depends on the player.

Back in HS I played bass bone in the jazz band but I was mostly a tenor player. I was working on a cello suite, the prelude to the first one, which has a low C in it. It was hard for me to hit that C with my 6.5AL on my Xeno, so I used a 1.25G. I forgot my other pieces one day and just had that one. My director didn't know what change I had made but told me he'd never heard me sound better and insisted I use whatever I was on that day. I thought he was nuts being in high school. Turns out, he was right, I sound much better on a 1.25 or 1.5G than a 5G/6.5AL... I just wasn't aware enough at the time myself to notice the timbral change as being good or bad. It took me a few years to find out that I need at least an XT104 (Doug's size) rim to get the best results.

ttf_Graham Martin · Post by **ttf_Graham Martin** » Sat Nov 30, 2013 4:55 pm

It is so nice to see an old post from Evan resurrected so many times. Originally 2006!

Evan started by quoting Kevin Marsh writing of Alain Trudel. Evan himself thought it was as much a case of matching the horn as the player. I know because he loaned me a Schilke 47B so that I could play my 2B like TD.

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Fri Apr 04, 2014 6:56 pm

I agree with that the "bigger is better" philosophy seems to be prevalant in the mouthpiece selection these days.

My main blow is a Bach 42B0 and listening to the babble about big air and la-de-da- I tried Bach 5G up to 3G, and comparable Shilke's, and keep going back to the Bach 6-1/2A that came with the horn! I have more range, more lip endurance, more control, and can play longer phrases without breathing constantly!

So there!

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Fri Apr 04, 2014 7:13 pm

I don't like extremes - I believe the truth is somewhere in between. The bell curve or goldilocks concept - the sweet spot is most likely to be in the middle, under the big part of the bell, not at the extremes, where the curve is low. I got caught up in the "bigger is better" back in the '80s, and decided it wasn't for me. But with that said, I've settled on a relatively big rim (Elliott XT 104 because it fits my face most comfortably)and a slightly small cup (F) for 547 and 525 playing. I do like a big sound, but not a woofy sound.

Bass boners seem to be disproportionately represented here, which may be part of the reason for the tendency toward big stuff.

ttf_Burgerbob · Post by **ttf_Burgerbob** » Fri Apr 04, 2014 7:35 pm

I have moved to larger mouthpieces (1 1/4 size). My high range is not as high, but it is also better all around. Everything is better all around.

A tenor player here just changed from a 12ML (5G size) to a 10ML (3G) and sounds tons better.

ttf_bigbassbone1 · Post by **ttf_bigbassbone1** » Fri Apr 04, 2014 7:57 pm

I disagree with the idea that people are thinking "bigger is better" when it comes to mouthpieces, at least where I come from and from what I read on this site. Fortunately most of the major trombone teachers around here are very into advising students in the "whatever works for you" attitude. I have had a few major long term teachers all of who rolled their eyes when they found that the size I like most tends to be comparable to a schilke 60 size. However in every blind test I did for them they always would pick the larger piece over a smaller size even though all played between 1 1/2 to 1 1/4 sizes themselves. One even said he liked a schilke 60 with tuba shank mouthpiece I have best!(I dont use it anymore though I think that is too big for almost anyone! Haha

)

ttf_Matt K · Post by **ttf_Matt K** » Fri Apr 04, 2014 8:18 pm

Quote from: bigbassbone1 on Apr 04, 2014, 07:57PMI disagree with the idea that people are thinking "bigger is better" when it comes to mouthpieces, at least where I come from and from what I read on this site. Fortunately most of the major trombone teachers around here are very into advising students in the "whatever works for you" attitude. I have had a few major long term teachers all of who rolled their eyes when they found that the size I like most tends to be comparable to a schilke 60 size. However in every blind test I did for them they always would pick the larger piece over a smaller size even though all played between 1 1/2 to 1 1/4 sizes themselves. One even said he liked a schilke 60 with tuba shank mouthpiece I have best!(I dont use it anymore though I think that is too big for almost anyone! Haha

)

I completely concur with everything here.

ttf_Doug Elliott · Post by **ttf_Doug Elliott** » Fri Apr 04, 2014 9:00 pm

Everyone should use the smallest size that works well all over the horn.

For a lot of people that size just happens to be on the big end of the spectrum.

ttf_harrison.t.reed · Post by **ttf_harrison.t.reed** » Mon Apr 14, 2014 2:18 pm

I think a lot of people use massive mouthpieces on a tenor trombone as a shortcut to get a big sound. However this often comes at the expense of losing some of their own voice/sound that they might have had on smaller rims. If all you care about is an open sound with no character, then play on a mouthpiece that is way too big for you...

You have to be careful about grabbing a mouthpiece that is TOO big, even if it helps you soung "big".

I think that everyone has an ideal mouthpiece size out there but finding it is really the trick!

Of course for Bass trombone bigger is better!!

ttf_Matt K · Post by **ttf_Matt K** » Mon Apr 14, 2014 8:41 pm

I think what you're describing can be attributed to the the fact it seems like most mouthpiece makers increase cup depth and change the shape as the rim size gets bigger. Maintain a consistent shape/depth of cup while expanding the rim and you end up with a totally different situation.

Moreover, it seems to me like it's much more prevalent for people to choose a piece that's smaller because it's easier to play high without proper mechanics.

ttf_savio · Post by **ttf_savio** » Tue Apr 15, 2014 3:33 am

My own thoughts is it have a lot to do with learning your equipment. If we can make an interesting sound, make music, it's probably right. I have done lot of stupid things in my trying to find both my own sound and right equipment for me. Listen what experienced and good players tell me is what helped me. The strange thing is what my teacher told me 35 years ago I didn't listen. I could for 30 years not understand it. 5 years ago Chris Stearn told me exactly the same thing as my first teachers. That makes me an extremely slow learner.

Also Doug Elliott told me the same thing.

It makes me believe that we sometimes should listen the experienced people, the really good teachers and players. There is many ways to Rome. It can be different ways for all of us to achieve the same goal.

It's human to go wrong but don't wait 30 years to learn

Leif

ttf_Slidennis · Post by **ttf_Slidennis** » Mon Apr 21, 2014 4:33 am

Quote from: savio on Apr 15, 2014, 03:33AMMy own thoughts is it have a lot to do with learning your equipment. If we can make an interesting sound, make music, it's probably right. I have done lot of stupid things in my trying to find both my own sound and right equipment for me. Listen what experienced and good players tell me is what helped me. The strange thing is what my teacher told me 35 years ago I didn't listen. I could for 30 years not understand it. 5 years ago Chris Stearn told me exactly the same thing as my first teachers. That makes me an extremely slow learner.

Also Doug Elliott told me the same thing.

It makes me believe that we sometimes should listen the experienced people, the really good teachers and players. There is many ways to Rome. It can be different ways for all of us to achieve the same goal.

It's human to go wrong but don't wait 30 years to learn

Leif

Yes to that...

Growing up is not a question of going from 12C to 1G...

Sticking with one equipment to do one job and learning how to use it right is the key...

I made the same mistake for so many years myself!

And yes, another thing : equipment is always a compromise, there will always be something "missing" at some point, and to get it right with another equipment, you lose something else elsewhere, so this can be a neverending story as the one of this man looking for the "perfect" woman to be with, and changing every three years for whatever the reason...

Try and love the imperfections of your equipment and yourself, then you'll be happy with what you are and what you have, and... both will magically improve with time... how so... I dunno...

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Sun Aug 10, 2014 12:47 pm

I would go somewhere in the middle. You don't want to have to work yourself to death but you also want the best possible tone.

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Fri Aug 15, 2014 2:52 am

At the risk of repeating whats already been said it's all about "Horses for Courses"

I play tenor and my old teacher Nev Roberts said I should use a Bach 4G. At the time I was playing mainly orchestral gigs (the instrument was and still is a beautiful Elkhart Conn 88H). This mouthpiece in combination with the Conn was perfect for Orchestral work with a majestic sound.

Then I got the job of Solo Trombone with the (sadly now gone) CWS Manchester Band. (For those too young to remember they were a world famous Champion Brass Band who did a good few world tours) - This entailed playing solos on every gig and always in the 2nd half of them and this was combined with playing lead (and in Brass Bands the thing is NEVER off your lip) so although the sound was great with the 4G I switched to a Denis Wick 5BL (slightly smaller) but I had it bored out slightly - This gave me I reckon 95% of the tone but made getting up the top end and playing very high lip slurs and trills in solos in the 2nd half of gigs much easier..

I now find myself playing mainly Big Band gigs on lead and having to play even higher. I am managing ok on the 88H and 5BL but I'm really having to stay bob on in practice (as we say in the UK) to be able to maintain the high stuff (again mainly in the 2nd half) - so (call me lazy) I'm in the process of looking for slightly smaller instrument, maybe a Yamaha 651 or similar for this job and I'll probably use a 6 or 7 mouthpiece (probably 6) for this work.. (Immediately reverting back the the 88H for B.B. or Orchestral work)

It's all about what you're comfortable with, for me playing higher consistently means go smaller for comfort - (isn't this why trumpets are smaller than trombones

) - BUT not everybody is or should be the same....

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Mon Oct 20, 2014 6:55 pm

I was in the Ringling Bros. Band from '79 to '81. We played 13 3 hour shows a week on average, and I think there were maybe 100 bars of rests total in all the tunes in the whole show. We played a LOT. So stamina could be an issue. I was in good shape when I started, coming off a period when I practiced 40 to 50 hours a week, but my lips still used to get a little puffy sometimes on a 3 show Saturday, time to pull out the old preparation H. When I joined the band, I was still playing my beloved 88H with, if I remember correctly a Bach 6 1/2 AL. As soon as I had the chance I bought an Urbie Green Martin and switched to a 12C. No more puffy lips on a Saturday night after that. Can't say much about differences in sound because I changed horns when I changed mouthpieces, but I did seem to have more stamina with the smaller mouthpiece.

ttf_sabutin · Post by **ttf_sabutin** » Tue Oct 21, 2014 10:21 am

Quote from: CircusBandMan on Oct 20, 2014, 06:55PMI was in the Ringling Bros. Band from '79 to '81. We played 13 3 hour shows a week on average, and I think there were maybe 100 bars of rests total in all the tunes in the whole show. We played a LOT. So stamina could be an issue. I was in good shape when I started, coming off a period when I practiced 40 to 50 hours a week, but my lips still used to get a little puffy sometimes on a 3 show Saturday, time to pull out the old preparation H. When I joined the band, I was still playing my beloved 88H with, if I remember correctly a Bach 6 1/2 AL. As soon as I had the chance I bought an Urbie Green Martin and switched to a 12C. No more puffy lips on a Saturday night after that. Can't say much about differences in sound because I changed horns when I changed mouthpieces, but I did seem to have more stamina with the smaller mouthpiece.

I concur. My real "equipment trip" started with a BBb tuba at about 8 years of age and progressed steadily up in range...and eventually down in size...from there. When I came to NYC as a young pro I was playing a .522 bore 76H w/a 6.5AL m'pce...fairly large as far as the jazz, latin and studio scenes of the time were concerned...and also a sterling silver bell King 3B (smaller but quite dark) w/the same m'pce. Over the years, I found that endurance issues...especially in latin and circus work...required me to go smaller and smaller. (Brighter and brighter too, in order to blend with my betters.) I had to learn how to do so, but I am now quite comfortable on any size rim from a large tuba m'pce up to a 12C-ish rim and on horns right up though tuba to .485 bore trombones and pretty much everything in between. Besides stylistic differences, timbral/attack differences and range tendencies, the most important change during this long trip has been improved endurance in the high/loud ranges that are very important to latin players and also to lead trombonists in large ensembles. The endurance difference...for me...between playing a really strenuous gig on say a 6.5AL or larger m'pce mated to a .508 or larger horn versus say an 11C or 12C-ish m'pce mated to a .500 or .485 bore horn is consistent and quite serious. Not only do I get through the gig playing better, I also don't suffer the next day from any sort of swollen lip syndrome nor do my playing and endurance steadily decline during a week of that kind of work.

Just sayin'...there are people who can do work like that on bigger rims, but they are few and far between. For well over 100 years the vast majority of players who have played those idioms have used smaller rims and equipment. They weren't dummies, to say the least. Check it out.

Learn from the masters.

I did.

Later...

S.

ttf_cb56 · Post by **ttf_cb56** » Tue Oct 21, 2014 11:10 am

Quote from: Doug Elliott on Apr 04, 2014, 09:00PMEveryone should use the smallest size that works well all over the horn.....

Doug you've told me I can go smaller with my mp. I was on a 6 1/2 sized piece and since switched to a 7c and after about a 3 day period of getting used to it, it is working pretty good.
Does your statement mean I should keep going smaller until I find something that just doesn't work then move up one size to the last one that worked?

****************************
Edit for more info:
Here's what I'm liking on the 7c so far over the 6 1/2 (48)
Better flexability, more focused tone, High range that I have is the same but a bit easier to get there, still has nice tone in the low register down to low F.

This is of course on my .500 bore horn. I've put the large bore away for awhile to concentrate on this since most of my gigs (If not all) will be jazz/Danceband gigs with some big band (lower parts) sprinkled in.

ttf_Doug Elliott · Post by **ttf_Doug Elliott** » Tue Oct 21, 2014 12:25 pm

Yes, for your embouchure you can move down in size until it affects your low range negatively.

Exactly the opposite of the other downstream embouchure, which can move up in size until it affects range, focus, or endurance negatively.

There are potentially other details, but that's the basis of my approach.

ttf_cb56 · Post by **ttf_cb56** » Tue Oct 21, 2014 12:43 pm

Thanks Doug.

ttf_cb56 · Post by **ttf_cb56** » Thu Oct 23, 2014 9:46 am

BTW Doug,
I'm starting to see some improvement in my high range. I can play up to high D

without straining or doing anything weird with my chops. That's actually higher than I need to go ever. My goal now is to get secure in that range by practicing in that range everyday. Without over doing it of course. There is a difference between playing a high Bb and playing a jazz riff in that register.

BTW I have a used 12c on the way to check out.($13

) I'm feeling pretty good on the 7c but I'll see if the 12c is an improvement or not. Then I'll worry about what to do about the large bore. Still using the yamaha 48 on that.

Edit for corrected note

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Thu Oct 23, 2014 10:41 am

Erm, that's an F you cited. D is

Still, for most playing the D is more than sufficient. I've only seen 2 F's in symphonic music, and the parts are really intended for alto trombone.

ttf_cb56 · Post by **ttf_cb56** » Thu Oct 23, 2014 10:59 am

Sorry, my eyes aren't what they used to be.

ttf_ssking2b · Post by **ttf_ssking2b** » Fri Apr 03, 2015 7:21 am

IMHO your equipment should be something suited to the gig you are doing. Why play a .547 bore horn on lead in a big band, or something huge as a mouthpiece if you are in the upper register constantly? you have to be able to handle a range of horns and mouthpieces that give you the desired effect for the ensemble and music you are playing. What ever gives you that, and gets you hired back, must be it!

That being said, we all get different sounds, etc. out of different combinations. In the end, we are all looking for what works. I don't think there is a single "silver bullet" out there that works for everything and everyone. We can make suggestions to our students, but for them , too, it remains what does the job, sounds right in the context of your playing, and feels good to you...that is what we should all be looking for.

Like Sabutin, I double on a number of horns, and the bores and mouthpiece sizes are all over the map...I use what works for me and gets the job done right. I don't really expend any worry over what should I be playing on...short of making sure my equipment suits the context of where I am performing.

ttf_Dukesboneman · Post by **ttf_Dukesboneman** » Fri Apr 03, 2015 9:41 am

I need to play on a rim that is around a Bach 7/7C size. That`s what works for me.
Last June at the ITA conference, I bought a Doug Elliot for my large bore, because he seems to be the only one that will do a set-up with a 7-ish rim (his 98) and a 5G-ish cup, which is what I wanted and needed.
Why is it that you have to play a big rim to get s deep cup?????????

ttf_ssking2b · Post by **ttf_ssking2b** » Fri Apr 03, 2015 10:06 am

Why is it that you have to play a big rim to get s deep cup?????????
[/quote]

With a system like Doug Elliot's, you can mix and match to suit your needs. Other mouthpiece makers are either cookie cutter or the dredged "special order". If you need or want something that isn't cookie cutter you are just stuck. Doug offers you the mix 'n match, as well as excellent suggestions!

ttf_Doug Elliott · Post by **ttf_Doug Elliott** » Fri Apr 03, 2015 11:33 am

Quote from: ssking2b on Apr 03, 2015, 07:21AMIMHO your equipment should be something suited to the gig you are doing. Why play a .547 bore horn on lead in a big band, or something huge as a mouthpiece if you are in the upper register constantly? you have to be able to handle a range of horns and mouthpieces that give you the desired effect for the ensemble and music you are playing. What ever gives you that, and gets you hired back, must be it!

That being said, we all get different sounds, etc. out of different combinations. In the end, we are all looking for what works. I don't think there is a single "silver bullet" out there that works for everything and everyone. We can make suggestions to our students, but for them , too, it remains what does the job, sounds right in the context of your playing, and feels good to you...that is what we should all be looking for.

Like Sabutin, I double on a number of horns, and the bores and mouthpiece sizes are all over the map...I use what works for me and gets the job done right. I don't really expend any worry over what should I be playing on...short of making sure my equipment suits the context of where I am performing.

I wanted to hear what you sound like so I visited your website. All I found was one plunger solo and another with your bell buried in a microphone.

ttf_ssking2b · Post by **ttf_ssking2b** » Sat Apr 04, 2015 5:17 am

There are many more recordings of me on my site than just what you found. If you look a bit further, you will find a vast set of recordings. And yes, in performance we don't always have the luxury of doing things just the way we want to.

ttf_Geezerhorn · Post by **ttf_Geezerhorn** » Sat Apr 04, 2015 5:29 am

I certainly didn't have any trouble finding clips of you playing. I think you are a remarkable performer; very talented and a great entertainer. I have your site bookmarked for future reference. Thanks for sharing your work, thoughts, information and rants on your site! I thought your rant on mpc sizes fit right into the topic of this thread.

...Geezer

ttf_ssking2b · Post by **ttf_ssking2b** » Sat Apr 04, 2015 6:01 am

Thanks Geezer! Just to make it easier for Doug - here is a link to a youtube sound track of me with the Michael Treni Big Band "Boys Night Out" - one of the soloists on this track https://youtu.be/kz9tVjx3mY0

And another youtube sound track from a recording by the Somers Dream Orchestra - a feature written for me on "On The Street Where You Live" https://youtu.be/DH7CWUhLVnQ

I hope y'all enjoy these!

ttf_Geezerhorn · Post by **ttf_Geezerhorn** » Sat Apr 04, 2015 6:22 am

Nice! I love the way you play with attitude. That's inspiring.

Sounds to me as though you have solved the "mouthpiece dilemma" a long time ago and have your sound zeroed in on the perfect size mpc for you. Nice cherry-poppin' sound; nice edge; nice articulations; nice range. Kinda reminds me of a cross between Rosolino and Green - on steroids.

My opinion.

...Geezer

ttf_ssking2b · Post by **ttf_ssking2b** » Sat Apr 04, 2015 9:21 am

Thanks again Geezer! I must admit that I haven't always played the same mouthpieces on my horns. On jazz bone I played a modified 11C for about 21 years, until I made a change to improve a few things. I played a Greg Black custom mouthpiece based for about 3 years, then settled on the Marcinkiewicz ET 1.7 I play now. Been on this one for 5 years, and it looks like I'm staying, as it gives me what I want. Same with bass bone - played a Bach 1G for almost 30 years, played around with a few mouthpieces for 2 years, then went back to the 1G. Tried the Marcinkiewicz 105 about 4 years ago, and stuck with it since. IF I am getting what I want to get, that's the ticket!

Thanks for the ref to Urbie. He has been my hero since I was 14! A lot of my playing was influenced by him! And, of course, Rosolino was just in his own class. I just want to make masic and have folks enjoy it - like they did!

ttf_ssking2b · Post by **ttf_ssking2b** » Sat Apr 04, 2015 9:22 am

Now...if I could learn to spell...

ttf_Roscotrombone · Post by **ttf_Roscotrombone** » Wed Mar 09, 2016 12:40 pm

I haven't read all of the replies to this thread so I may be repeating what someone else has said.

I moved from tenor to bass when I was at the Royal Military School of Music Kneller Hall. I started on a Bach 4G,3G then finally a 2G and I was happy. In the last few years I've gone a bit crazy with buying mouthpieces,all 1.5 or bigger. Schilke 59, G&W Karif,KH 20BXL to name but a few. Yet I always gravitated back to the 2 and I felt "at home". I just couldn't settle on any of the buckets. I use a 1.5 for brass band as in that environment it's a "louder the better"at times. I think the huge mouthpiece phenomen has come from you guys across the pond (no offence intended!) and if someone prominent turns up with a new piece then folk jump on the bandwagon

Now I went for a lesson from a freelance bass trombone player recently and he uses a 2,as do a lot of other orchestral players in the UK. I know of lot of brass band guys use the big guns but at the end of the day how loud do you really need to go? Yes they help with the bottom register but I can rattle out pedal F's and E's without too much trouble and I've managed Mahler on a 2. Yet to many folk a 2 is a transitional piece. It's all about making it work.

I've given up on the idea that I need something bigger and my bank balance is happier for it! As is my sanity!!

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Wed Mar 09, 2016 12:50 pm

Actually, the crossover is a 3G. The 2G has been successfully used as a bass trombone mouthpiece, especially for embouchure types that favor the smaller sizes. One great player who used one was Ray Premru, and nobody questioned his versatility.

ttf_MoominDave · Post by **ttf_MoominDave** » Thu Mar 10, 2016 2:27 am

Quote from: Roscotrombone on Mar 09, 2016, 12:40PMI haven't read all of the replies to this thread so I may be repeating what someone else has said.

I moved from tenor to bass when I was at the Royal Military School of Music Kneller Hall. I started on a Bach 4G,3G then finally a 2G and I was happy. In the last few years I've gone a bit crazy with buying mouthpieces,all 1.5 or bigger. Schilke 59, G&W Karif,KH 20BXL to name but a few. Yet I always gravitated back to the 2 and I felt "at home". I just couldn't settle on any of the buckets. I use a 1.5 for brass band as in that environment it's a "louder the better"at times. I think the huge mouthpiece phenomen has come from you guys across the pond (no offence intended!) and if someone prominent turns up with a new piece then folk jump on the bandwagon

Now I went for a lesson from a freelance bass trombone player recently and he uses a 2,as do a lot of other orchestral players in the UK. I know of lot of brass band guys use the big guns but at the end of the day how loud do you really need to go? Yes they help with the bottom register but I can rattle out pedal F's and E's without too much trouble and I've managed Mahler on a 2. Yet to many folk a 2 is a transitional piece. It's all about making it work.

I've given up on the idea that I need something bigger and my bank balance is happier for it! As is my sanity!!

I just have an inkling that the tide is turning in UK brass bands right now. One or two notably large mouthpiece players giving smaller stuff a try.

As I recall, what drove the move to big stuff was the ever-increasing demand for volume from the seat from some top level MDs in the 80s and 90s, coupled with an increase in low register writing. Freed from the constraints of the G bass, we went a little bit mad with the freedom of it. But the sometimes caricature levels that this direction has taken us to are I feel falling out of fashion - you hear some players these days playing big mouthpieces, but being basically inaudible in the band sound, which is wasting their time and energy; the logical step from there is to recapture some of the character of the sound by going smaller. Of course you do also hear some players totally dominating the band sound when they let rip on their huge equipment still. But as you point out, you can do this on smaller stuff with more tonal nuance - it's just harder work to do so.

Apropos of not much, after years of playing a VB 1-1/4G and slightly larger variations thereof, I bought a Josef Klier 3AL a few weeks ago in a moment of clarity; it sounds like a 2G, but plays like a 1-1/2G, I would say by way of comparison. It wasn't the mouthpiece I'd gone into the shop thinking that I'd buy, but listening to myself play various mpces in a small room, the removal of all flabbiness from the sides of my sound I found irrestible. Using it on Gregson's 'Essay' for the Area contest at the moment (an old-fashioned bass part without any shouting below low Eb, and requiring crisp articulation), and I'm hopeful that it'll still prove suitable for more beastly parts. If not, I have other options, but it would be nice to be able to retain this approach.

ttf_Doug Elliott · Post by **ttf_Doug Elliott** » Thu Mar 10, 2016 3:06 am

The U.K. brass band scene is really unlike anything over here in the US. With its wide spectrum of brass sounds, the bass trombone needs to fit in its particular place above the bass and contrabass. Here in the US, in most situations I would say it is expected to fill a lower role in the sound spectrum in addition to adding a more accessible lower range on the horn... and more volume.

In the context of the different kinds of playing, both approaches make sense.

ttf_patrickosmith · Post by **ttf_patrickosmith** » Thu Mar 10, 2016 3:17 am

Quote from: MoominDave on Mar 10, 2016, 02:27AMsnip

Apropos of not much, after years of playing a VB 1-1/4G and slightly larger variations thereof, I bought a Josef Klier 3AL a few weeks ago in a moment of clarity; it sounds like a 2G, but plays like a 1-1/2G, I would say by way of comparison. It wasn't the mouthpiece I'd gone into the shop thinking that I'd buy, but listening to myself play various mpces in a small room, the removal of all flabbiness from the sides of my sound I found irrestible.

snip
If not, I have other options, but it would be nice to be able to retain this approach.

The mouthpiece definitely needs to match the horn (and players mouth). I enjoy listening to Ray Premru on recordings with the PJBE. I believe his horn was a Holton 169. I'm curious ... what mouthpiece did he use?

ttf_Doug Elliott · Post by **ttf_Doug Elliott** » Thu Mar 10, 2016 3:28 am

I think when was in London he was using a 2G, but during his later years when he was teaching at Oberlin he used my SB 106 and a J cup, if I remember right.

ttf_MoominDave · Post by **ttf_MoominDave** » Thu Mar 10, 2016 3:30 am

The 169 (or at least my 169) will work happily with mouthpieces of all sizes. Somewhat ironically, only the week before buying that JK, I'd been trying out using my Rath B1 M.F. in it, which isn't much smaller than a small tuba mouthpiece - it makes things like Schilke 60s and Bach 1Gs look like thimbles. It was hard work to keep as focussed as I like at lower and mid dynamics! But it definitely works with the trombone.

I've only ever heard of Ray Premru playing a VB 2G. Somebody who knew him (I didn't) may well know more than that.

ttf_Tanner hunter · Post by **ttf_Tanner hunter** » Sun Apr 16, 2017 9:32 pm

I started playing bass trombone on a 60 schilke, which was a massive shock to my embachure. Then a couple months later I switched to a 58 schilke. I can certainly
testify that playing the 58 was a total breeze, and sounded amazing.

ttf_blast · Post by **ttf_blast** » Mon Apr 17, 2017 3:22 am

I went back to the beginning of this topic to see what it started out as....
WOW.... eleven years ago the quality of debate was SO high... I was gripped by the twists and turns !
All these years on I will add one thing...
This academic year two lads turned up at the RCS with very similar equipment... and it was very like that played by the bass trombonist in the BBC Scottish Symphony Orchestra... a stunning player who anyone would want to emulate.
The problem was that these two were playing so much better when they auditioned almost a year previously, and had swapped to very large mouthpieces, like that used by the BBC player. They simply could not cope at all. They have now swapped onto much smaller equipment that suits them well at this stage of their development. The BBC player sounds great on his big mouthpiece... but that is him... and I know it is a good fit, because he was also a pupil of mine and I put him on that mouthpiece.

Chris Stearn

ttf_bonenick · Post by **ttf_bonenick** » Mon Apr 17, 2017 4:08 am

When I started learning symphonic repertoire on trumpet, I believed in the largest possible mouthpiece thing. But with the years I found the the smallest equipment that ensures the normal function of your embouchure you get best result with minimum effort. There are very few exception to this rule, on bass tbone it may be different. never tried.

IMHO you get better result in getting different timbral colour by changing the shape of the cup, backbore and the size of the throat.

ttf_Georgilocks · Post by **ttf_Georgilocks** » Thu Jun 29, 2017 6:09 pm

Does body shape or oral cavity shape determine your mouthpiece? Personally I have a large oral cavity, within human range...but about one inch longer than normal so I'm flat on most horns. So, do I play a larger mouthpiece? Absolutely not. SMALLER.

If I was to have a very small oral cavity, what kind of mouthpiece would best suit me?

ttf_bigbassbone1 · Post by **ttf_bigbassbone1** » Thu Jun 29, 2017 6:24 pm

Quote from: Georgilocks on Jun 29, 2017, 06:09PMDoes body shape or oral cavity shape determine your mouthpiece? Personally I have a large oral cavity, within human range...but about one inch longer than normal so I'm flat on most horns. So, do I play a larger mouthpiece? Absolutely not. SMALLER.

If I was to have a very small oral cavity, what kind of mouthpiece would best suit me?

How do you know how big your oral cavity is in comparison to the rest of the human race? Is there an internet test you can take? Or have you viewed a large pool of oral cavities of other people?