Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

ttf_savio · Post by **ttf_savio** » Fri Jul 25, 2008 1:50 pm

Norway is so expensive Doug Sorry. But motorbike in between the fjords and mountains............nothing can beat it.....I think you and your wife had a great time? But not your bank account of course. Doug, I live nearby Aurland. Sogndal.... and I maybe have seen you on your motorbike?

Skåål Doug! )Tell me if you are going back?)

ttf_blast · Post by **ttf_blast** » Fri Jul 25, 2008 2:18 pm

I go away on holiday and all sorts of things happen...
The George Roberts mouthpieces....
These were copies of Georges favourite mouthpieces. They were made by a guy who owned a shop in LA and struck up a friendship with George (at least for a while).
There were quite a few models.. the NY, MV, SE, CE and SO. When I spoke to George he could not remember which of his mouthpieces were copied, but he did remember that the part of the agreement that involved him getting money never happened.
As George mostly had Bachs, it might be a reasonable guess to think that the letters referred to New York, Mount Vernon, Symphony Elkhart, Commercial Elkhart and the odd one out SO.. which it has been suggested was Symphony Oversize, and may have been a copy of an oversize 1 1/2G that Herrick made him... I stress that these are pure guesses.
I have owned all but the NY model. They are all good and all different, the SO more than the rest. The maker is now dead and the guy that runs the shop found a stack of these mouthpieces in a drawer. He has sold them off over the last few years.
I know a couple of fine players here that have used them.

Are Mt Vernon Bachs better ? If you can tell the difference and have the spare cash, yes. Otherwise, no. Your choice.

Chris Stearn.

ttf_savio · Post by **ttf_savio** » Fri Jul 25, 2008 3:02 pm

Chris,

(I hope you had a nice holyday and not on a motorbike in Norway? its dangerous and very expensive. Better rent my little motorcycle: max speed 35 kilometers and if empty of gas just run it as an bicycle)

I assume you have tried many MT Vernons and many regular Bach 1 1/2g. Have you sometimes experienced a regular Bach to be better than a mt Vernon?

And if you have more to tell about these George Roberts mouthpieces please tell? How many did this mouthpiece maker produce and why didn't they make the deal go through?

Leif

ttf_blast · Post by **ttf_blast** » Fri Jul 25, 2008 4:07 pm

Savio, I've tried loads of Bach 1 1/2G's but only a few have been Mt Vernons.... all the Mt Vernons were better... for me....

I don't really know any more about the Roberts mouthpieces... that's all I've been told by George and the guy who runs the shop.

My holiday was nice... and pretty static. Very fine food and wine in a quiet place...

Chris Stearn.

ttf_savio · Post by **ttf_savio** » Sat Jul 26, 2008 1:01 am

Thanks for the info Chris. There was a MT Vernon on Ebay also but I did miss it. Maybe another time. The Dollar is so low but still. It was 300 dollar for the George Roberts mouthpieces including shipping and thats enough. Any way thanks for the info. I look forward to try them.

ttf_blast · Post by **ttf_blast** » Sat Jul 26, 2008 1:43 am

Quote from: savio on Jul 26, 2008, 01:01AMThanks for the info Chris. There was a MT Vernon on Ebay also but I did miss it. Maybe another time. The Dollar is so low but still. It was 300 dollar for the George Roberts mouthpieces including shipping and thats enough. Any way thanks for the info. I look forward to try them.

This mouthpiece search of yours worries me.... you need to give any mouthpiece that shows potential six months to a year of trial to see what it really is. If you constantly change, nothing will feel right. You might be expecting too much... the best mouthpiece in the world just lets you get on with the job.... mouthpieces and trombones allow you to do things... they will never create a single sound themselves... the more they free you, the better they are.
Chris Stearn.

ttf_The Bone Ranger · Post by **ttf_The Bone Ranger** » Sat Jul 26, 2008 1:58 am

Quote from: blast on Jul 26, 2008, 01:43AM
This mouthpiece search of yours worries me.... you need to give any mouthpiece that shows potential six months to a year of trial to see what it really is. If you constantly change, nothing will feel right. You might be expecting too much... the best mouthpiece in the world just lets you get on with the job.... mouthpieces and trombones allow you to do things... they will never create a single sound themselves... the more they free you, the better they are.
Chris Stearn.

I was about to reply similarly to Chris. Believe me, as someone who's been there, it's a hiding to nothing.

When the George Roberts pieces arrive, spend a few hours testing them, pick your favourite, and give it a few months. You'll be better for it.

Andrew (who is still trying to sell all the mouthpiece he amassed from such an experience...)

ttf_The Bone Ranger · Post by **ttf_The Bone Ranger** » Sat Jul 26, 2008 2:02 am

Quote from: blast on Jul 25, 2008, 02:18PMand the odd one out SO.. which it has been suggested was Symphony Oversize, and may have been a copy of an oversize 1 1/2G that Herrick made him...
I have a video/lesson of Bill Reichenbach, where he suggests the S0 stands for 'slightly oversize'.

I believe the SO has been somewhat popular amongst US studio musicians. I kept an eye on the ebay music store selling those Roberts mouthpieces, hoping an SO would appear, but I imagine the store had been pillaged of them long ago by those in the know....

Andrew

ttf_blast · Post by **ttf_blast** » Sat Jul 26, 2008 2:37 am

Quote from: The Bone Ranger on Jul 26, 2008, 02:02AMI have a video/lesson of Bill Reichenbach, where he suggests the S0 stands for 'slightly oversize'.

I believe the SO has been somewhat popular amongst US studio musicians. I kept an eye on the ebay music store selling those Roberts mouthpieces, hoping an SO would appear, but I imagine the store had been pillaged of them long ago by those in the know....

Andrew

When that stock of mouthpieces was found there were no NYs and only a few SOs. Mouthpiece experiments were going on a Rath at the time and I have to admit that the remaining SOs were bought and messed about with during trials... and were all messed up.
I have an SO with a wider rim added, but it does not play well. On reflection it was a mistake to mess with those mouthpieces.... a couple of them were really good in original form.
Chris Stearn.

ttf_slidejj · Post by **ttf_slidejj** » Sat Jul 26, 2008 1:15 pm

I just bought a Heritage 0AL and find it a pretty good version of a 1.5 rim with 1.25 cup. It's much more focused and plays better than the old style, just seems better balanced. The inner rim diameter is so close to my Rath 1-1/2W I can't tell a difference in feel or with the my cheap calipers. I've been wanting a 1.5/1.25 piece for tuba parts and the occasional stupidly low/loud bass-bone parts. It won't replace the W for all-around playing but I think it's a keeper.

ttf_savio · Post by **ttf_savio** » Sat Jul 26, 2008 2:59 pm

I see the point Chris and Andrew. This year have been a very struggling time for me. I have played a schilke 59 for 25 years without thinking a second on my mouthpiece. What I begin to think is that this size is not for me after all and thats why I struggle. The schilke 59 was perfect with my old bach 50bl. Not with my yamaha. The sound got very unfocused.

All the 1 1/2g mouthpieces I have tried should work very good on the paper. They do work and I like my sound on them all. But I cant find back to the good feeling I had with my 59. I think I have to move back.......... and find back the feeling I did have before.

Its to disturbing and after nearly one year with the 1 1/2g size and a very turbulent time I have to find a solution. I have also played 3-5 hour a day so its not lack of practise time. This size is maybe after all not for everybody. You cant choose your own face anatomy.

Leif

ttf_savio · Post by **ttf_savio** » Sun Jul 27, 2008 3:39 pm

Mouthpiece selection. Is a very personal choice and therefore very difficult to discuss. We can talk about design, size and mouthpiece makers. But our own choice can sometimes be even hard for a student/teacher relationship to figure out. Sometimes very easy.

I'm sorry my posts have been about my own failure in making a decision. Thats not fair in using of all your peoples time. Nor will it help me making a decision. I have asked a lot and also learned a lot. So thanks

The truth is people are different and play on everything between the moon and earth. And makes it work. There is no right and wrong. There is no good or bad. George Roberts did play a 1 1/2g and some of the best players today play a Laskey 95. Both of these players did the right decision. Both are players we admire.

I think the Bach 1 1/2g is the best bass trombone mouthpiece ever made and will be the mouthpiece that survey longer than any other.

I want to stop using all your peoples time on my struggling and therefore also don't want any kind of reply on this post! Not from anyone. Keep the tread on topic.

Last word is I think George Roberts, E. Kleinhammer and all of the many good bass trombone players playing a Bach 1 1/2g was in their right mind and their recordings will stay as a proof.

Leif

ttf_boneagain · Post by **ttf_boneagain** » Sun Jul 27, 2008 4:00 pm

It saddens me that Savio wants no further responses to his posts. That does not, of course, mean the end of this thread! Without responding to Savio's post I can say that I thought his questions and comments brought a lot to the discussion. Thanks to his participation we have even more insightful comments from the like of the originator of the thread (what a great topic, Mr. Stearn!) and other too numerous to list. Even recently, the information about George Roberts 1 1/2G equivalents is new to me, and intriguing. I am one of those who like to really learn to play what I have, so it was instructive to see how many close iterations Mr. Roberts went through with different sources.

So I won't respond to Savio's post. But I still look forward to more illumination on this great subject!
And, without directly responding to that last post, thank him for what he has brought to the table!

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Sun Jul 27, 2008 8:58 pm

I hope this thread continues. It's a wonderful exchange of how folks from all over the place imagine how the Bass Trombone might sound. What they've tried and how it's helped them to somehow get closer to making the sound that probably attracted them to the instrument in the first place. I wonder if it's really possible to achieve "the sound in your Head",when you're actually playing the trombone(sorry Mr. Jacobs) I have(and play on exclusively) a Mt. Vernon 1&1/2 G. It's not the first one I've owned,but I must say-there is some aspect to these mouthpieces that no modern mouthpiece maker has captured yet. Sometimes I make a sound that really interests me-not because of what I think other people might hear,but what I hear for myself in my own sound. Sort of a way of becoming a little bit more interested than usual. In most crafts,the tool gets dull with a lot of use. In the case of the 1&1/2G it's often viewed as a thing of the past.I see it as a tool that Sharpens with use.

ttf_savio · Post by **ttf_savio** » Mon Jul 28, 2008 2:29 am

It continues without my struggling.....

I have heard the MT Vernons did have a different brass content and might be one of the reasons they are some different?

Leif

ttf_second.chance · Post by **ttf_second.chance** » Mon Jul 28, 2008 3:04 am

Firstly Leif... It was a yellow BMW 1200 cruiser a lot like a Harley but definitely a BMW with large panniers and back packs (took the wife after all) We stayed for 2 nights in the Aurland Fjiord Hotel with nice views down into the Fjiord from our bedroom window. We drove through your village. did the Flam Railway and Fjiord Cruises and such like.

Secondly (and back on topic... sorry) I have had chance to play this 1.5G mouthpiece from the shop in Stockholm. It is different from a Bach when you come to play it. there is a little bit more edge and brightness about the sound (not unpleasent). It was a little easier in the pedal register than a modern Bach, so in that respect its more like my old Bach though the little brightness I dont sense - in the old Bach its a broader warmer sound. So I think this mouthpiece is more like an old Vernon than the present day offerings but alas not the one Chris would swop for his! Chris... next time I'm passing I'll get another one of these pieces and let you have it for interests sake... Doug

ttf_The Bone Ranger · Post by **ttf_The Bone Ranger** » Mon Jul 28, 2008 3:18 am

Quote from: blast on Jul 26, 2008, 02:37AM
When that stock of mouthpieces was found there were no NYs and only a few SOs. Mouthpiece experiments were going on a Rath at the time and I have to admit that the remaining SOs were bought and messed about with during trials... and were all messed up.
I have an SO with a wider rim added, but it does not play well. On reflection it was a mistake to mess with those mouthpieces.... a couple of them were really good in original form.
Chris Stearn.

Gees, Chris, between hoarding 1.5G's, and destroying SO's, you're making it hard for some of us to get our hands on these classic pieces.

Andrew (who doesn't want anyone experimenting with his Greg Black...)

ttf_slidejj · Post by **ttf_slidejj** » Mon Jul 28, 2008 6:22 am

Quote from: The Bone Ranger on Jul 28, 2008, 03:18AMGees, Chris, between hoarding 1.5G's, and destroying SO's, you're making it hard for some of us to get our hands on these classic pieces.

Now you know why I've got a Rath 1-1/2W and Heritage 0AL.

ttf_blast · Post by **ttf_blast** » Mon Jul 28, 2008 2:29 pm

Quote from: second.chance on Jul 28, 2008, 03:04AMFirstly Leif... It was a yellow BMW 1200 cruiser a lot like a Harley but definitely a BMW with large panniers and back packs (took the wife after all) We stayed for 2 nights in the Aurland Fjiord Hotel with nice views down into the Fjiord from our bedroom window. We drove through your village. did the Flam Railway and Fjiord Cruises and such like.

Secondly (and back on topic... sorry) I have had chance to play this 1.5G mouthpiece from the shop in Stockholm. It is different from a Bach when you come to play it. there is a little bit more edge and brightness about the sound (not unpleasent). It was a little easier in the pedal register than a modern Bach, so in that respect its more like my old Bach though the little brightness I dont sense - in the old Bach its a broader warmer sound. So I think this mouthpiece is more like an old Vernon than the present day offerings but alas not the one Chris would swop for his! Chris... next time I'm passing I'll get another one of these pieces and let you have it for interests sake... Doug

I would be interested to see that Doug. I have, over the past few years, taken a particular model of mouthpiece and modified it to be very close to a Mt Vernon 1 1/2G... I recently sent two to a friend in the US and he seemed quite impressed with the 'before and after difference'. Simple mods that make a BIG difference. If you ever find a mouthpiece simply marked 'enigma' you have found one of my efforts (some are more 1 1/4 at the rim- every one is different).
It never seems possible to get all the way to that Mt Vernon effect, but they are VERY close.
Chris Stearn.

ttf_savio · Post by **ttf_savio** » Thu Jul 31, 2008 2:48 pm

Quote from: blast on Jul 28, 2008, 02:29PMIt never seems possible to get all the way to that Mt Vernon effect, but they are VERY close.
Chris Stearn.

Sorry, me again.

I have another question Chris.......Can you describe for us what this effect is like? We really want to know. What playing effect is better with a MT Vernon? I know one i.... can ask more than ten wise can answear

, but try to describe what makes them special to play?

Quote from: second.chance on Jul 28, 2008, 03:04AMFirstly Leif... It was a yellow BMW 1200 cruiser a lot like a Harley but definitely a BMW with large panniers and back packs (took the wife after all) We stayed for 2 nights in the Aurland Fjiord Hotel with nice views down into the Fjiord from our bedroom window. We drove through your village. did the Flam Railway and Fjiord Cruises and such like.

Doug, I tried my brothers Harley 1000 (1910 modell)some years ago, very old, same feel as being on a rodeo. The new ones are maybe more comfortable.

Leif

ttf_blast · Post by **ttf_blast** » Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:35 pm

Quote from: savio on Jul 31, 2008, 02:48PMSorry, me again.

I have another question Chris.......Can you describe for us what this effect is like? We really want to know. What playing effect is better with a MT Vernon? I know one i.... can ask more than ten wise can answear

, but try to describe what makes them special to play?

Doug, I tried my brothers Harley 1000 (1910 modell)some years ago, very old, same feel as being on a rodeo. The new ones are maybe more comfortable.

Leif

I think Donward 59 said it well... the sound is more interesting... more complex... it's what I said in my very first post, thirty something pages ago... you can get a sound that is dark, but with brightness, or is it bright but with darkness?... it's both and more.... and the feel of a pair of old shoes that you love.... it's a feeling of quality that runs through those things in life that are known to be 'the best'.... but that said, a Mt Vernon is not the easiest mouthpiece to use, whichever example you try... there is easier... but I've not tried better.
Chris Stearn.

ttf_savio · Post by **ttf_savio** » Sun Aug 10, 2008 12:05 pm

Quote from: Donward59 on Jul 27, 2008, 08:58PM In most crafts,the tool gets dull with a lot of use. In the case of the 1&1/2G it's often viewed as a thing of the past.I see it as a tool that Sharpens with use.

Very interesting Downward59....Could you explain this more for us?

Leif

ttf_daniel brady · Post by **ttf_daniel brady** » Sun Aug 10, 2008 12:25 pm

I use a giddings and webster Mark 1, which is the same size as a bach 1 1/2g basiclly, what's wrong with that? I made it work pretty well...

ttf_savio · Post by **ttf_savio** » Sun Aug 10, 2008 12:51 pm

Daniel, Nothing is wrong with that. Nothing....Nothing is wrong with any mouthpiece, more often something is wrong with the person behind the mouthpiece............

Ask me...

So use your Mark 1. And dont make the mistakes I have done. Keep it like it was your child.....and you will have some fun and grow as a player.

Leif

ttf_blast · Post by **ttf_blast** » Sun Aug 10, 2008 2:20 pm

Quote from: daniel brady on Aug 10, 2008, 12:25PMI use a giddings and webster Mark 1, which is the same size as a bach 1 1/2g basiclly, what's wrong with that? I made it work pretty well...

Nothing wrong at all. I bought a mark 1 to see what they had done... bigger at the rim than a 1 1/2G, wider, comfortable rim.. more of a V cup.... feels very safe all over, easy up top and down low. I just cannot get a decent sound on it... but I gave it to another player to try, and he sounded great on it...

Chris Stearn.

ttf_BassBoneFL · Post by **ttf_BassBoneFL** » Sun Aug 10, 2008 2:45 pm

Chris may be a "bowl guy", Dan a "funnel guy". Neither is "right" or "better", if it works it works.

I recently had a real mind/ear opening experience. I was the "neutral" ears listening to 2 world class tubists try a particular instrument vs their main horns. We first found the best mouthpiece to interface between the player and instrument before going A/B on the horns. After trying about a dozen pieces, the best for one was the worst for the other !!

One player got the best results from the horn on a Laskey 30G and the other a Laskey 30H. Conversely out of all the pieces in the mix, those pieces worked the WORST of all if the players switched with each other. The only difference was one had more a "bowl" shape the other more a "funnel".

ttf_blast · Post by **ttf_blast** » Sun Aug 10, 2008 3:46 pm

Quote from: BassBoneFL on Aug 10, 2008, 02:45PMChris may be a "bowl guy", Dan a "funnel guy". Neither is "right" or "better", if it works it works.

I recently had a real mind/ear opening experience. I was the "neutral" ears listening to 2 world class tubists try a particular instrument vs their main horns. We first found the best mouthpiece to interface between the player and instrument before going A/B on the horns. After trying about a dozen pieces, the best for one was the worst for the other !!

One player got the best results from the horn on a Laskey 30G and the other a Laskey 30H. Conversely out of all the pieces in the mix, those pieces worked the WORST of all if the players switched with each other. The only difference was one had more a "bowl" shape the other more a "funnel".

Exactly Harold, I think that the most prized equipment is that which seems exceptional to the largest group of players, but that does not stop an 'oddball' being perfect for a particular player.
Chris Stearn.

ttf_savio · Post by **ttf_savio** » Sun Aug 10, 2008 4:09 pm

I don't know but Chris is making focus on something we all care about. and its over 32 pages. It will take two days to read it Maybe a real book?.Well just a thought.

Leif

ttf_savio · Post by **ttf_savio** » Sun Aug 10, 2008 4:53 pm

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Sun Aug 10, 2008 5:05 pm

Quote from: savio on Aug 10, 2008, 12:05PM
Very interesting Downward59....Could you explain this more for us?

Leif
Yes-a lot of Folks will often dismiss the 1&1/2 G as too small. Over the years I spent a lot of money fooling around with mouthpieces. I always end up back on a !&1/2G. Like Chris says-the air has to be right,otherwise it backs up. With bigger mouthpieces,you can swing for the fence all the time. But not with a 1&1/2. You have to be very precise with the attack and the air. So this "sharpening" has to do with a certain skill that comes with experience. Ed Anderson,Dave Taylor,Paul faulise make the "Classic" bass trombone sound. It's an interesting sound that's hard to find these days. This type of sound to me is a thing of beauty. But I'm only talking about what interests me. There's plenty of fine playing out there on the big stuff-I just happen to like the sound that comes out of smaller moutpieces-

ttf_savio · Post by **ttf_savio** » Sun Aug 10, 2008 5:18 pm

Thanks Donward59,

It all blows down to sound.

Leif

ttf_savio · Post by **ttf_savio** » Sun Aug 10, 2008 5:20 pm

And not the easy way. I did some double post sorry.

ttf_blast · Post by **ttf_blast** » Mon Aug 11, 2008 4:03 pm

Thirty two pages, just to say that it's a sound thing.... bass trombonists really are long winded.

It IS a sound thing. It IS a concept thing. It IS about realising that small can be beautiful.... and it IS about realising that a really good Bach 1 1/2G can be ideal for the elementary player AND the advanced player. It's about not having to play a really big mouthpiece if it's not your thing.... it's about music and about common sense.
Chris Stearn.

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Mon Aug 11, 2008 6:42 pm

Let's go for thirty-three-it's a better number. Chris-I have to take issue on your last statement. I'm not sure how "common" sense really is......

ttf_Slidennis · Post by **ttf_Slidennis** » Tue Aug 12, 2008 12:32 am

1 1/2 is one thing, Bach is another...

I'm stuck with my Connstellation 3B...

ttf_poozer · Post by **ttf_poozer** » Tue Aug 12, 2008 1:02 am

Quote from: blast on Aug 11, 2008, 04:03PMbass trombonists really are long winded.

Yep, otherwise we'd never make it through the phrases...

ttf_slidejj · Post by **ttf_slidejj** » Tue Aug 12, 2008 9:59 am

Blast wrote "...it's about music and about common sense."

Donward59 wrote "Chris-I have to take issue on your last statement. I'm not sure how "common" sense really is......"

I think both are correct, Will Rogers said "common sense ain't common". It is about music and to some degree common sense as well, which obviously isn't as "common" as it should be. Perhaps that's why some insist on playing mouthpieces that are so large that they don't get a good bass trombone sound. I'm not saying no one gets a good bass trombone sound on the large pieces, there are a lot of fine players who sound wonderful on the larger pieces. But there are some that need to discover or rediscover what we've been discussing for 30+ pages.

ttf_savio · Post by **ttf_savio** » Sat Aug 23, 2008 1:27 pm

My common sense have finally had a breaktrough and I now play one of the GR. mouthpieces. I can recommend everyone to try them if you are in the mood for trying mouthpieces. I don't know exact the differences between them but they are very similar. Same size as a 1 1/2g. I cant describe exact how they play either with my limited vocabulary. But not so far away from Bach. Just better.

For me......anyway. And of course it helps with George Roberts name on them.......

They look nice. I play them with a devotional mind......I'm going to sell mouthpieces so I will try it first in the Classifieds section and after that on Ebay.

Cheers

ttf_blast · Post by **ttf_blast** » Sat Aug 23, 2008 4:23 pm

Well everybody, Savio sounds great on his GR mouthpiece.... we have a result

Chris Stearn.

ttf_boneagain · Post by **ttf_boneagain** » Sat Aug 23, 2008 6:38 pm

Quote from: savio on Aug 23, 2008, 01:27PMMy common sense have finally had a breaktrough and I now play one of the GR. mouthpieces. I can recommend everyone to try them if you are in the mood for trying mouthpieces. I don't know exact the differences between them but they are very similar. Same size as a 1 1/2g. I cant describe exact how they play either with my limited vocabulary. But not so far away from Bach. Just better.

For me......anyway. And of course it helps with George Roberts name on them.......

They look nice. I play them with a devotional mind......I'm going to sell mouthpieces so I will try it first in the Classifieds section and after that on Ebay.

Cheers

Whoa Savio.... you spent a lot of time and effort accumulating your stable of 1 1/2G-like mouthpieces. I KNOW it's a big investment, but didn't you say you are a teacher? Might you regret marketing them so quickly? When I was actively teaching I kept EVERY mouthpiece I bought. I certainly didn't buy every one I tried, but if they were close enough to what my "soft machine could handle," and I wasn't satisfied with how reasonable amounts of practice were paying off on something I was reasonably sure a mouthpiece would help, I invested. Even now, with my 1 1/2G journey, I'm keeping the ones that didn't work for me.

I have REALLY good ideas (that I've written down) as to what did and did not work for me, and what the quickest ways were to predict how each mouthpiece would do over a few weeks of hard work. I'm keeing the mouthpieces AND the notes. even if I can only help one bass bone player in the local trombone choir, I'll consider it a good investment. You can't buy that kind of mouthpiece "training" for any amount as college credit! And even if you COULD, if you learned on college-owned property, you'd be pretty hard up when far away from the alma mater and up to your elbows in teaching challenges.

If you can afford to keep the samples, might they prove useful someday for YOUR bass bone students? If you don't have any, I'd really like to know why not (especially now that I've had a chance to hear you!)

All the best,

a Mouthpiece Miser

ttf_Fuzzy · Post by **ttf_Fuzzy** » Sat Aug 23, 2008 11:11 pm

95% of people do not need to worry about the mouthpiece. The often minute differences such as 'darkness' and 'brightness' are qualities only easoned proffesionals can pick up.

I can SOOORTAAA tell the difference (if I listen with every ounce of concentration) between the sound I make on my Jupiter bass trombone, little double rotors and a 1.5G and my teachers dual bore dependant thayer edwards with a chunky bell and a larger mouthpiece. Its easier to play lower. it feels very weird, the sound doesnt crackle as easily as on my horn, but as for all that other crap I can barely tell a difference.

People just need to focus on putting all their passion, happiness, sadness and experiences and translating it through the horn, and the only way to do that efficiently is to practice so that the trombone, regardless of the equipement merely becomes an extension of you and your sound.

Im 16 now, and I remember being a a younger teen reading and wasting my time thinking about equipment. Now I spend that time practicing, playing, having fun, and listening to other great players so that I have a sound and idea in my head as to what Im trying to put out from my bell.

Too many band dorks overthinking things. I keep it simple, practice as Im told, do the excersises I need to, give it my all and make each note as perfect as it can be and have a damn good time. I treat my trombone playing like I treat my weightlifting. I have experienced, wise mentors, who know what they are doing, who are working with me to ensure I put my best out wether it is on the platform or the stage. If I need to change something, alter my pulling technique, get a different mouthpiece etc etc than really it is their call, I am humble enough to know I DONT know enough to make those calls. I just focus my heart mind and soul into putting everything I have into the music or the bar.

The majority of people who can worry about such things are those who have been playing with a horn to their face twice as long as I have been alive. Everyone else just needs to get a good quality working horn, and let the magic happen.

ttf_MoominDave · Post by **ttf_MoominDave** » Sun Aug 24, 2008 12:15 am

Quote from: Fuzzy on Aug 23, 2008, 11:11PM95% of people do not need to worry about the mouthpiece. The often minute differences such as 'darkness' and 'brightness' are qualities only easoned proffesionals can pick up.
Good sentiment, but this is a bit too much the other way now... I know plenty of players who do not play professionally who are perfectly capable of hearing/feeling differences between mouthpiece designs and taking advantage of the changes they hear/feel.

But then, these players mostly exist in the overlap between those who could have made a go of playing professionally but chose not to (generally by studying something else at university), and those who play professionally but haven't managed to fully establish themselves yet.

ttf_savio · Post by **ttf_savio** » Sun Aug 24, 2008 1:40 am

I'm a teacher Dave mostly children. 10-18 years old but mostly the younger ones. When they are 14-16 its not so "in" to play a brass instrument. From time to time I have a talented one and I put him/her on bass. I always have them on a Denis Wick 3AL in the beginning. If they are very talented and practice a lot I send them to one of the orchestra players here when they get older. (not so often) I never focus so much on mouthpieces among the children I have. So I sell them

I agree with MoominDave. Its like shoes that have to fit. I think everyone can notice if they don't fit so well. Not only the pro players. But I could probably live happy with most of the mouthpieces I have tried. Its easy to go in to a bad circle and think maybe this one is better or maybe this one....what about this....nice sound...nice legato...this is easy down....this have a interesting sound...this one is easy to play...slot well....maybe this.....and so one. I started to notice my chops got in trouble. Had to "refind" the placement everytime and in the end I think maybe it could have gone real bad. It also stop any progress both with embouchure and music. In the end you figure out none of them gives you any kind of miracle. But I agree the shoes have to fit. I should have gone to one of my old teachers in the beginning. I had a younger very talented student to listen me and it helps. And of course Chris had right when he wrote many times that all of them will feel bad in the end. So I recommend to get some help when choosing mouthpieces and have some listen you. Or the best thing to do: Dont choose, play what you have if it works.

Leif

ttf_blast · Post by **ttf_blast** » Sun Aug 24, 2008 1:49 am

As I posted in another topic, this is a place for all, the young and old, pupil and teacher, amateur and professional.
At the moment, Fuzzy, you are working on the right lines .. for YOU... for NOW... others are in different places. The important thing is to try and see where you are in terms of progress and standard, and act appropriately.

Chris Stearn.

ttf_bonesmarsh · Post by **ttf_bonesmarsh** » Sun Aug 24, 2008 6:18 am

Fuzzy-

Great post! Well thought out, well informed, and best of all its based on the magic ingredient----PRACTICE !!!

One of my students plays a Jupiter with the Jupiter 1 1/2G. I myself spent a small fortune on mouthpieces, and searched for DECADES for an old Conn, until I had a couple of them. I burned out the slide on a large Bach bass practicing my way through thousands of dollars worth of mouthpieces. I was a fool to waste all of that money--BUT, it did keep me practicing for a long time. (" A change is as good as a rest." And for most of us changing mouthpices is one method we use mentally to keep the body interested in practicing past the point of muscle failure and crossing the pain threshhold.)

I tried my student's Jupiter. I loved it beyond belief. I wouldn't hesitate to have one myself, were I still needing to play a double-valve horn, and I would not hestiate myself to take a Jupiter out to any orchestra rehearsal and gig, or any big band, or any small ensemble. I wouldn't be ashamed to take it anywhere....because I know that I could silence all of the strange looks in 2 seconds,,,by having all of the professionals I play with just try it. They'd find it to be a great horn as well.

AND...since this is all about the Bach 1 1/2G, and specifically the Mount Vernons etc....I'll say that the mouthpiece that comes with the Jupiter..also a Jupiter 1 1/2G, is just as good an example of ANY 1 1/2G as any you'll find on the planet. The Jupiter 1 1/2G is likely better than most of the Bach 1 1/2G mouthpieces from 35 years ago when their quality control was horrible.

Fuzzy, keep up the good work. You're on the right track, Actually its the only track-- you have a teacher you respect, you have access to his gear to try to compare yours to-- and you did the right thing and found for yourself that the best way to judge a mouthpiece is by playing it to death. Well, done, sir. I know you're only 16, but by your post here you've earned the right, in my books, to be called "sir".

ttf_Slidennis · Post by **ttf_Slidennis** » Wed Aug 27, 2008 2:25 am

Mouthpiece and practice....

I've found at a music camp with a very good instructor (prof. bass bonist, Franz Masson) that the magic instantaneous good mpc is maybe not the best one when you practice carefully the way it should be...

So, I left the Connstellation 3B, to go back to a Bach 1 1/2 clone, i.e. a Blessing 1 1/2 G that is a bit more open with a fuller sound (for me) than my Bach 1 1/2 G...

The Connstellation was a shortcut to overcome some weaknesses in sound emission I had in the trigger range : I was shifting too much and not putting enough flesh of my lips in the mpc, so now I'm able to stay in nearly the same positioning than the middle range...

So, the lesson is : mpc for which kind of player? Coz practice, instruction, kind of music played, all that matter in the mix...

ttf_savio · Post by **ttf_savio** » Thu Sep 04, 2008 12:38 pm

"the hole mix" can be very complicated or very simple. But I'm glad I left the complicated part and just stay with one simple solution

I find it to be better and better for my chops. Or maybe my mouthpiece get better and better?

Anyway its the best mouthpiece in the world of course

I have got a pdf file from a trombone player in the George Roberts tread which is very interesting. GR use the same rim size (1 1/2g..... but a little deeper cup and a more open backbore which I believe all modern mouthpieces like Greg Black, Rath and the others have today) his hole carrier and still do I think.

There are some sitat from many well known bass trombonists (there are mostly orchestra player that admire his sound) which all have his sound as a goal. Why don't they all play this size. For me its obvious that this size is a part of his sound and thats why he didn't go bigger. I mean many of them did go bigger but not GR? Even Chris did try the bigger stuff then? Why? Did GR know something that the others didn't know? Some orchestra players like Chris (and many others) seems to know where this limit in size is before you loose the sound effect of a 1 1/2 size mouthpiece.

In "the hole mix", like Denis say, there is more than I can understand, but why did all go bigger but not GR? And why don't more of all the orchestra players today go back to this size? But there are many more of them that already do play this size than we know.

The pdf file I got is interesting reading and it surprise me that the sound of GR is something all the orchestra players admire. The jazz players had a little different approach. Very interesting.

Leif

ttf_GetzenBassPlayer · Thu Sep 04, 2008 6:02 pm

Quote from: savio on Sep 04, 2008, 12:38PM
There are some sitat from many well known bass trombonists (there are mostly orchestra player that admire his sound) which all have his sound as a goal. Why don't they all play this size. For me its obvious that this size is a part of his sound and thats why he didn't go bigger. I mean many of them did go bigger but not GR? Even Chris did try the bigger stuff then? Why? Did GR know something that the others didn't know? Some orchestra players like Chris (and many others) seems to know where this limit in size is before you loose the sound effect of a 1 1/2 size mouthpiece.

In these threads, many times we take examples of players we have heard who are, or are not on the right equipment for their needs and use that as a blanket example for why one should or should not choose a piece of equipment. The very best players are on equipment that works for their needs; regardless of the size or stature. Appropriate sound is as unique as cuisine. This will show up in trends one sees in different genre and countries. Matt Guillford plays on a very large piece and gets a great sound, I wouldn't say that his Monette is a good piece for everyone, but it obviously works for him. George plays on something smaller, however I doubt he would tell Matt to switch to his piece.

ttf_Slidennis · Post by **ttf_Slidennis** » Thu Sep 04, 2008 11:44 pm

I personally think that after some while on some equipment (can take years...) and (intelligent) practice, search for improvement, we know what is best for us...

6 3/4 definitively is MY size on tenor.

I went from 12C to 6.5 to 7C to 6.5 to 7 to 5 to 6.5 to 7 to 5 to 6.5 to 7 to 6 3/4 to 5 to 6 3/4, to 6.5, to 6 3/4 to 6.5 to 6 3/4 to a kind of 6 3/4 to another kind of 6 3/4...

Then you refine in that size... can take a long time too...

I don't like heavy weight mpc, even not too heavy is already too much, this for any size mpc...

SO, A NEW THREAD : "WHO IN THEIR RIGHT MIND PLAYS ORDINARY WEIGHTED MPCS"?

It seems, too attract customers, most of the boutique mpc makers are adding weight on their mpc, the new Wick Heritage serie, the Rath, the Stork, the Greg Black... Great for me : all mpcs I don't have to try...

ttf_savio · Post by **ttf_savio** » Fri Sep 05, 2008 3:09 am

Quote from: GetzenBassPlayer on Sep 04, 2008, 06:02PMIn these threads, many times we take examples of players we have heard who are, or are not on the right equipment for their needs and use that as a blanket example for why one should or should not choose a piece of equipment. The very best players are on equipment that works for their needs; regardless of the size or stature. Appropriate sound is as unique as cuisine. This will show up in trends one sees in different genre and countries. Matt Guillford plays on a very large piece and gets a great sound, I wouldn't say that his Monette is a good piece for everyone, but it obviously works for him. George plays on something smaller, however I doubt he would tell Matt to switch to his piece.

I will never tell anyone to switch piece.

I'm talking about the effect the 1 1/2g size have on the sound. There is a special effect this size have on the sound and there is a limit in size before we loose it. If we go bigger than this limit the effect is gone.

I'm not talking about making a beautiful bass trombone sound which we can make on any size. I have listen Matt on his own homesite and he have one of the most beautiful bass trombone sound in the world. If we listen to Ben Van Dijk he also have a sound that all people love and not just trombone players. He has a singing style in his playing and all love this playing but play it on bigger stuff. No one can tell him to switch of course.

But I still think George Roberts have something special. And after trying all mouthpieces in the world I know there is a special effect from the 1 1/2g size. Thats what it all is about GetzenBassPlayer. I admit I don't understand all of it but I know this effect. I don't know why it is so. But can listen it in my own playing.

Leif