Articulations in low register

[ttf_bonenick]

Being a novice to trombone but not to brass, I had quite a progress for the ~ 5-6 weeks after buying the trombone.

So the question is:

How to make precise, delicate but still pointed articulations in the low register on tenor trombone in soft dynamics? Is it any different than on high brass instruments like flugelhorn, trumpet, cornet?

So far this and locking the slide on the necessary positions in medium and fast tempos is still kind of sloppy, something I need to work more.

[ttf_Burgerbob]

Most people are a little too open in the aperture below a certain point, which makes accurate attacks very difficult.

Also, since the positions are different with the valves, placing the slide exactly is important. It's hard to make accurate articulations to something you have to lip.

[ttf_svenlarsson]

Aidan, when you say most people, do you mean students or professional players? Ok there seems to be many ways to skinn a cat, but in my opinion most pro do not open the aperture very myck in the pedal range, at least not in Sweden, and I know several American bass trombonists who don´t either. Many bass trombonists lower their jaw but don´t open the aperture. I think there is a big missunderstanding about that.

[ttf_bonenick]

Well, to make sure that everybody understands my situation, I am a professional trumpet player. Thus a had very few problems embouchure wise with transition to trombone (I still conitnue to play the trumpet). I am pretty secure with articulating the middle and the high register, I can bark in the low register (It is a small bore trombone), but getting it soft down there is a little bit fragile.

[ttf_Ketch22]

Quote from: bonenick on Dec 25, 2016, 11:11AMBeing a novice to trombone but not to brass, I had quite a progress for the ~ 5-6 weeks after buying the trombone.

So the question is:

How to make precise, delicate but still pointed articulations in the low register on tenor trombone in soft dynamics? Is it any different than on high brass instruments like flugelhorn, trumpet, cornet?

So far this and locking the slide on the necessary positions in medium and fast tempos is still kind of sloppy, something I need to work more.

Hi Bonenick,

We seem to be on the same learning curve and time schedule on our knew trombones. I'm not a full time pro trumpet player but have played for years in a semi-pro big band. And in Brass Band, having learned to play very quietly with precise articulation in the low registers on cornet and flugelhorn (both single and multiple tonguing) I AM finding the same articulation techniques - light tonguing and good breath control - are transferring quite well to trombone through the full 2 1/2 octave playable range I have to date. In fact I'm finding multiple tonguing is a bit easier on trombone, maybe because of the considerably less resistance than I'm used to on trumpet. Not that I can even move the slide fast enough for multiple tongued scales! Those I practise VERY slowly.

My slide positions and general flexibility of locking in notes in tune also needs work, but is getting better week by week. I'm looking forward to another Big Band dance gig coming up in February (third trombone).

K22

[ttf_Burgerbob]

Quote from: svenlarsson on Dec 25, 2016, 11:39AMAidan, when you say most people, do you mean students or professional players? Ok there seems to be many ways to skinn a cat, but in my opinion most pro do not open the aperture very myck in the pedal range, at least not in Sweden, and I know several American bass trombonists who don´t either. Many bass trombonists lower their jaw but don´t open the aperture. I think there is a big missunderstanding about that.

Students, my bad. I think students probably outnumber pros so maybe my statement still stands!

[ttf_bonenick]

I am definetely doing the jaw thing even on a trumpet, though there the movement is not so obvious than probably on a bass tbone.

[ttf_bhcordova]

Do you have a trombone method book?  If not I would suggest getting the Remington Warm-ups.  Another good book would be the Buddy Baker Trombone Book.  Both are available at Hickeys. 

Also, try doing long tones as low as you can go.  You should see improvement after a few weeks.

[ttf_bonenick]

BH,

I don't really need a method book for daily routines for anything else than slide technique. I started 6 weeks ago and I have already almost 4 octaves of range. I know what to do embouchure wise, though low range is soft dynamics require some more time to get a good hang on it. I have it, I can bark quite well on the bone, but delicate articulations require some more time for aclimatisation and consistency.

[ttf_baileyman]

As the months go by doing long tones deep deep on the horn the lips seem to become more subtle or flexible.  The tone down there improves and the notes speak more readily.  It may be as a trumpet player you will have to soften up lip structure that previously was outside the rim but now is inside. 

Secondly, air attacks seem to reveal deficiencies in technique at a note.  At least that way you don't have to sort out whether the tongue is causing an issue. 

[ttf_bonenick]

I am getting better everyday. To me, articulation exercises seems to help better, as my breathing is ok, due to previous brass playing. I just need to figure out and feel how to respond to the mp geometry. I also play for the moment on a generic nonmarked mouthpiece. I am waiting for a Wedge 7C, which is expected very soon to arrive.

[ttf_musicofnote]

Just chiming in with a "me too" here. I was a professional trumpet player, specializing in Baroque music on the piccolo and the Baroque trumpet. Then in 1991 after a break from playing due to various embouchure related nervous problems, I started up tenor trombone and got my teaching diploma for trombone and euphonium at the local conservatory in 1996. At that point I pretty much abandoned the tenor trombone and only played bass trombone in 4-tett, orchestra and a couple of brass bands. I'm now coming off another 3 year break due to "other interests" and am backing up to "do it right", now that I'm retired and have the time to.

Some observation of my own journey.
1) It's a journey, not a "quick fix". So beware of any quick fix solutions. Anything that is quick-fix related may even work temporarily, but the chances of it working long range are small.
2) I once heard "use the smallest mouthpiece with which you can get your best sound and flexibility - the extremes are for the practice room" and that has served me well. I have the Yeo mouthpiece that came with my Yamaha 822g, but I literally fall into it. Pedals are great, but ... the tone starts getting thin already at b-flat at the top of the stadd and everything over that is thinner and flat. I bought a Yamaha 58 and I have almost my full tenor range on it up to d above high b-flat with good intonation and sound. Now, after about 6 weeks of concentrated work, I can play relatively scurely down to a low D-flat (TT2-) and can get pedals down to about G and they are getting better day for day.
3) I use a combination of slightly extended forward lower jaw (rotation) with a conscious opening of my throat through dropping of my tongue in the valve register starting around low F. Taking a huge breath and thinking blowing warm air, not cold air. The air stream gets more aimed directly inot the throat f the mouthpiece in this manner and as I "climb" back up, the jaw rotates back and the airstream drops to a more vertical stream.
4) First tonal exercises for valves and pedal register are glissandi going first in half-step intervals, watching for breath of tone and no change in color. Then expand this to whole steps and then the minor thirds. All done with attention to tone color. The idea here is to ... NOT to think too low.
5) then some simple long tones: first half notes, then while blowing a half-note tongue 2 quarters. Then 4 eighth  notes, then triplets. I try to tongue these at first as legato as possible so as to not interrupt the airstream, just stroke it. Watch to keep the tone color and pitch - no dipping. Then start to add some more lingual pressure without changing the air stream. IOW, don't change the blowing to shorten notes, "sharpen" the intensity of the tongue.
6) For me very important. Every couple of minutes, do s simple 2 octave legato tongued arpeggio upwards to at the most f (two leger lines), just to make sure, you're NOT spread apeture or changing basic mouthpiece positioning. If you cannot do this, STOP and go back. You're making too many concessions to the low register.
7) Being a bass bone player, I then move to the Slokar/Bachmann and work some dual trigger exercises down to round C. But, I do not play entire exercises, but rather just 2-5/6 measures and then backwards for fluidness of trigger, consistency of tone color and attack. Back up to the above exercises if I notice inability to maintain either.
This work takes me 15-20 minutes per day. I then move on to Concnone (no, they don't go away with the trumpet) for phrasing and legato which spans the registers fomr low e-flat up to high g or so. At this point I should be able to do what I want with tongue and tone color in this entire range. If not, a real quick review, ususally of the half-note routine in Nr. 5 gets me mentally framed again.


This has served me well, getting back "into things". Oh, and I'm also learning valveless French Horn, so it's not a question of mouthpieces messing things up. Have fun!!

[ttf_bonenick]

Thanks a lot musicofnote. To make it even more difficult, I decided to abandon the no marking generic mp that came with my trombone and purchased a used, but in nearly perfected condition small bore Wedge 7C. I don't plan on moving to large bore or bass bones, so I will stay on the small/medium tones territory aiming in a rather light, jazz but lyrical side of the road.

I'm already doing the jaw adjustment thing, it seems that to get things right in soft dynamics I need to tongue even more delicate than on trumpet.

So far I didn't encounter serious embouchure troubles, both switch-to-trumpet or tboneforum specifically related. I hope to get a little more brilliance with the Wedge, but I will keep you posted.

[ttf_musicofnote]

Bonenick - one thing I've been noticing since I re-started is, when I start my sessions concentrating on the valve register, I can literally play all day. No real signs of fatigue I remember so well with the trumpet. No mouthpiece imprints, no loose teeth. My only problem is with my left shoulder and left hand. I was using an Ergobone for about 5-6 weeks but while it was wonderful to show how important lack of unnecessary tension is to playing, it's lack of micromovement adjustments while playing was becoming a problem. I tried the Hagmann and Rath hand supports and they were not enough support to avoid the tension creeping up my left arm to the shoulder. I'm using the NeoTech grip which keeps my left hand loose and also, for the time being, approaching the left shoulder like weight lifting. Only playing as long as the shoulder doesn't hurt, while gradually incrreasing the actual playing time. With the Ergobone I could literally play all the Arban Fantasies in a sitting and not feel arm tension or embouchure fatigue - and since they don't go too low, not problems there with the shifting necessary for the lower valve/pedal registers. With the Neotech, over the course of the last 3 weeks, I'm now able to do one variation of a fantasy and take a short 20-30 second rest with the bone on the stand and go on. In the beginning, only about 10-12 measures. So it's getting better.

I've read a lot about the wedge mouthpieces and I filled out one of their on-line contact forms to see what they propose for the bass bone. they seem to be hinting, that with that fomr of a rim, one can use a larger mouthpiece without losing top but gaining bottom, so ... we'l see. In any case, Ben van Dijk wrote, that he used one for his Marcello dog memorial recording. And he doesn't wound bad (understatement): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RgTol0FH45s

[ttf_bonenick]

My slide technique is not good enough yet for Arban fantasies, but so far I am very pleased with wedge as well on trombone (I use one on trumpet for pop/commercial and jazz. The low register artoculations have improved with the new mp, I need less effort to get them right. As you said, we'll see. and Ben van Dijk sounds swell.

[ttf_musicofnote]

Kind of reporting back after a couple of months. I've not got a Wedge 1 1/2G and a Wedge S59 for the bass bone. I can do 99% of everything I need to on the 1 1/2G EXCEPT, for a couple of pieces which hang for the whole piece down between TTD and pedals. After about 12 minutes down there, I lose precision and even start losing tone. This doesn't happen with the S59, but then my tone doesn't the pop I like, is missing a bit of core when I get out of the paddle range into the middle range. I work on the 1 1/2G but rely on the larger S59 when my technique doesn't quite get me there.

My low articulations are getting better and better. The S59 is "teaching" me that.

On my tenor I'm getting close to my goal. A Wedge 5GS was too harsh and closed off on me up top around g upwards to d. The Wedge 4.5G is better. I find the inner rim on both to be too sharp. I've got a Wedge 4G coming in a couple of weeks.

[ttf_bonenick]

Me on the contrary, I find that the rim would be better if it was a bit thinner, but it works, I don't complain 

[ttf_bonenick]

Me on the contrary, I find that the rim would be better if it was a bit thinner, but it works, I don't complain