Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

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ttf_savio
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Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_savio »

Quote from: blast on Sep 30, 2016, 01:16PMI think you are thinking wise thoughts !

Really great equipment teaches you things... the other stuff keeps you asking questions....

Chris Stearn

I did ask my self for 25 years, and didn't understand anything. Thanks to Chris and this forum I did find what I look for. I found my place.  Image

Now its just to practice..... and enjoy. Played my Conn 60h and the Vernon 1 1\2g in an orchestra today. Its a professional opera orchestra and even though I don't play much in such environment I feel relaxed. I know the sound is right, I know the intonation works. I can just relax and concentrate on music, and listen better what is going on in the orchestra. Easier to fit in. I feel more like a musician again, at least  for some couple of weeks. Then back to teaching.

The right equipment that fits our own concepts is in fact important to feel well and go on with music. Chris and those experienced pro musicians is well worth to listen, that's sure!

Leif




ttf_EWadie99
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Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_EWadie99 »

You know something?  After reading the many, many pages of this post, I believe I feel enlightened to try out the Bach 1.5G.  I hope its good as everyone else says here. Image
ttf_blast
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Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_blast »

Quote from: EWadie99 on Sep 30, 2016, 05:12PMYou know something?  After reading the many, many pages of this post, I believe I feel enlightened to try out the Bach 1.5G.  I hope its good as everyone else says here. Image

If you find a good Bach 1 1/2G it can be a revelation.... if you find a good one.... they vary massively ..... few are really good.... the search begins ?

Chris Stearn
ttf_tbathras
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Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_tbathras »

Ahhhh!!! After reading the new activity on this thread the past week or so, I've given in and took out probably-not-even-special Getzen 1-1/2G....

It's so crisp and clean, and if *I* do it right, there is still plenty of volume at the low end. And, my upper register just sings.

I thought I had all this mouthpiece confusion behind me.  Image Image

Gonna give it a go at rehearsal tomorrow night just for giggles.




ttf_Torobone
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Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_Torobone »

The best Bach 1.5G I owned was a MV that had been an experiment. The donor of said mouthpiece had reamed it out to open it up and of course the experiment did not achieve the desired result. The price was right and I parlayed that into a Holton 1.5G with a trade to an opera bass bonist named Herb for a Holton 1.5G. I used the Holton in a Yamaha 321 for 12 years.

My next purchase of a Bach 1.5G was done by mail order in 1991. From the day it arrived it was terrible. I could sell it on eBay, but my conscience prevents inflicting this POS on somebody else. Of course, this "frog" could turn into a Prince for somebody. But I think my frog kissing days are over.

I expect I'll go back to the Holton 1.5G it I'm able to get my good friend to sell me his Yamaha 321 when he stops playing it. The horn is so much fun with a good 1.5G.

ttf_blast
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Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_blast »

Quote from: Torobone on Oct 05, 2016, 09:24AMThe best Bach 1.5G I owned was a MV that had been an experiment. The donor of said mouthpiece had reamed it out to open it up and of course the experiment did not achieve the desired result. The price was right and I parlayed that into a Holton 1.5G with a trade to an opera bass bonist named Herb for a Holton 1.5G. I used the Holton in a Yamaha 321 for 12 years.

My next purchase of a Bach 1.5G was done by mail order in 1991. From the day it arrived it was terrible. I could sell it on eBay, but my conscience prevents inflicting this POS on somebody else. Of course, this "frog" could turn into a Prince for somebody. But I think my frog kissing days are over.

I expect I'll go back to the Holton 1.5G it I'm able to get my good friend to sell me his Yamaha 321 when he stops playing it. The horn is so much fun with a good 1.5G.


Small digression.... have you seen Herb lately ? How is he ? About 15 years since I last saw him and the Opera Canada guys.
Bach 1 1/2G's vary massively ....
The Holtons (and the 87 model that preceded it) were basically copies of a Bach 1 1/2G with a longer, wider bore. They blow well but can sound a little harsh if not controlled..
Chris Stearn
ttf_EWadie99
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Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_EWadie99 »

Quote from: blast on Oct 01, 2016, 12:53AMIf you find a good Bach 1 1/2G it can be a revelation.... if you find a good one.... they vary massively ..... few are really good.... the search begins ?

Chris Stearn
If the search for a good Bach 1.5G fails, I'll continue to pursue and find my holy grail.  I thought that the topic was praising the Bach 1.5G.  Well, my English comprehension just scored a new low. Image
ttf_blast
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Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_blast »

Quote from: EWadie99 on Oct 05, 2016, 09:55AMIf the search for a good Bach 1.5G fails, I'll continue to pursue and find my holy grail.  I thought that the topic was praising the Bach 1.5G.  Well, my English comprehension just scored a new low. Image

Read post number 1.
I was talking about a Mt Vernon 1 1/2G.... still am.
Comprehension... now there's a big thing....

Chris Stearn
ttf_EWadie99
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Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_EWadie99 »

Quote from: blast on Oct 05, 2016, 11:04AMRead post number 1.
I was talking about a Mt Vernon 1 1/2G.... still am.
Comprehension... now there's a big thing....

Chris Stearn
Oh okay.  I guess I did somewhat understood.  I thought it was about the modern Bach 1.5G.  Thanks for the clarification.  And I'll keep a look out for one! (MV)
ttf_blast
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Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_blast »

Just remember Ethan, that in the earlier stages of learning, practise and lessons are more important than the ultimate equipment.... and that is good news for you.
The time to refine the hard machine is a little later... college and early career...

Chris Stearn
ttf_JohnL
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Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_JohnL »

Quote from: EWadie99 on Oct 05, 2016, 11:08AMOh okay.  I guess I did somewhat understood.  I thought it was about the modern Bach 1.5G.  Thanks for the clarification.  And I'll keep a look out for one! (MV)Even if you can't find a Mt. Vernon 1.5G, I think there's still a lesson here regarding "medium-sized" bass trombone mouthpieces in general.
ttf_blast
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Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_blast »

Well, an old friend who I had not seen in many years, came to pick up a trombone I am selling the other day. He played it a bit and had some comments about the low register. I blew it as we talked it through. He commented that it sounded very different when I played it.. and looked at my mouthpiece. He is playing a fine modern mouthpiece, slightly bigger than a 1 1/2G.... he gave up on the 1 1/2 years ago. I said he could try the MV, but it was not for sale and he might regret it.
He casually put it to his face.... I could hear it... he could feel it... and I could see that he didn't expect it to be anything like it was.
I did warn him.... it my well be one more player searching the ads.
A strange kind of magic.

Chris Stearn.
ttf_Geezerhorn
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Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_Geezerhorn »

Quote from: blast on Mar 09, 2006, 12:49PMThe poor old Bach 1 1/2G...... it gets a hard time these days.
Ed Kleinhammer can't see a use for it in the modern orchestra...
We call it a starter mouthpiece... a stepping stone to the serious stuff.
I've trumpeted the value of the improved Rath 1 1/2W and how we sorted the low register problems and funny rim that caused constant complaints (which we did)...
Well, the last couple of days, I've been thinking about all this....
Thinking a lot.
I took a few days out to see an old friend who is getting back into trombone after a long layoff from the profession. He wanted to settle on the right mouthpiece before really getting his head down and working...
so we took a couple of days, about forty mouthpieces, dozens of good recordings and a few bottles of wine, so that we were really sure that we had it right.
We played, we listened to old and new trombone recordings, we played some more, we drank, we played, I remodelled a rim, then another, then another, we played some more.
Then he gave me a present......
The finest Mt. Vernon Bach 1 1/2G that I have EVER come across !!
I had the Mt. Vernon 1 1/2G that I had turned into the prototype Rath 1 1/2W with me..... no comparison.
This new Mt Vernon is rich, creamy, refined, vibrant, singing, focussed......
and just as odd on the rim, and hard down low, and unforgiving as any Bach.......but when you work at it... it rewards you SO MUCH.
My Rath works better. Period. BUT ,the Bach is seductive beyond belief.
The sound I just love.... it's George Roberts, it's Tony Studd, it's not what you hear today.
Listening to lots of recent playing (non orchestral) the bass trombone has changed in sound.... almost everywhere.
SO..... perhaps I have been wrong....
perhaps all the kids should buy buckets that blow easy....
instant low register.... of sorts
They should fight for a sound on them for about twenty years....
Then they should try to buy a Mt. Vernon 1 1/2G, and try to play it if they do find one.
Not many will put up with all the problems....
But the few that do will be rewarded.....
It's not a starter mouthpiece...
It's a finisher mouthpiece.
Against my better judgement, I might just blow this quirky, stuffy, thing of beauty for a few weeks.....
I can always go back to the easy route....
but this is so interesting..... yes interesting.
Ask yourself when you play...is this the most interesting sound I've ever made ? It's a shame if it's not.

Chris Stearn.

Maybe I missed, but I don't see anything in the original post about playing a true bass trombone. I've started using a Bach 1.5G with my Conn 88H. It seems reasonable.

In my opinion, a Conn 88H is quite a flexible horn. It can be matched with an appropriate mpc and used as a tenor, or with a larger mpc as a tenor-bass and with a still larger mpc as a bass in a pinch. Perhaps other similarly-sized horns also work that way.

But this thread isn't about a Conn 88H. It's about the 1.5G. Since I have equipment to play anything I want from high tenor to low tenor, it seemed reasonable to pop a 1.5G into my 88H and try getting used to playing bass, possibly as a work-up to buying a true bass trombone, if I feel encouraged along the way. Does this baby-steps approach with a 1.5G seem viable?

...Geezer
ttf_BGuttman
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Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_BGuttman »

Sure.  You aren't going to audition for the Pittsburgh Symphony 3rd trombone chair on the 88H with a 1 1/2 G, so if it works it's good.

I use a Wick 4BL on my King 7B when I need to cover tenor parts at times.

You may never need a "real" bass trombone for the type of playing you do, so the 88H with a big mouthpiece may be fine.

Back in the "Bad Old Days" a bass trombone was the size of an 88H.  Of course most tenor players then were playing things that were the size of a Conn 4H or so.
ttf_Geezerhorn
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Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_Geezerhorn »

Quote from: BGuttman on Jan 07, 2017, 09:21AMSure.  You aren't going to audition for the Pittsburgh Symphony 3rd trombone chair on the 88H with a 1 1/2 G, so if it works it's good.

I use a Wick 4BL on my King 7B when I need to cover tenor parts at times.

You may never need a "real" bass trombone for the type of playing you do, so the 88H with a big mouthpiece may be fine.

Back in the "Bad Old Days" a bass trombone was the size of an 88H.  Of course most tenor players then were playing things that were the size of a Conn 4H or so.

Thanks for the affirmation, Bruce. That's how I see it as well. A lower-pitched horn might just be my "safety-net" for continued playing as a very elderly man - some day. So why not test the waters while I'm able.

I started this hobby WAY to late in my life to set the world on fire. But if I have a chance to set my little teeny-tiny corner of the universe aglow, I'll be happy.

As long as my embouchure can handle "doubling" with impunity, it should be okay. As little as three months ago it was out of the question. Feeling up to it lately...

...Geezer
ttf_savio
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Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_savio »

Quote from: blast on Jan 07, 2017, 09:02AMWell, an old friend who I had not seen in many years, came to pick up a trombone I am selling the other day. He played it a bit and had some comments about the low register. I blew it as we talked it through. He commented that it sounded very different when I played it.. and looked at my mouthpiece. He is playing a fine modern mouthpiece, slightly bigger than a 1 1/2G.... he gave up on the 1 1/2 years ago. I said he could try the MV, but it was not for sale and he might regret it.
He casually put it to his face.... I could hear it... he could feel it... and I could see that he didn't expect it to be anything like it was.
I did warn him.... it my well be one more player searching the ads.
A strange kind of magic.

Chris Stearn.

Yes, I think most people would be surprised if they had the opportunity to try one. But I see on ebay that they are seldom up for sale. People keep them close.

Leif
Leif
ttf_blast
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Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_blast »

Quote from: savio on Jan 07, 2017, 01:29PMYes, I think most people would be surprised if they had the opportunity to try one. But I see on ebay that they are seldom up for sale. People keep them close.

Leif
Leif

'It is an elegant weapon for a more civilised age'

May the force be with you.

Chris Stearn
ttf_savio
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Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_savio »

Thanks Chris! This place would not be the same with out you. There is lot of wisdom in your posts around every aspects of the trombone. It really is! It has helped me a lot.

There is a tread right now about another new mouthpiece, the artisan. Strange enough its from Bach. We have not seen many reviews about it? Is it a desperate kick from a dying horse? I understand the bach company has seen better days.

Anyway I don't think there ever will be a new Mt Vernon. I believe the computer and digitalised world never can replace the art of hand made art. Which the Mt Vernon is....


Leif
ttf_Splendour
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Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_Splendour »

Having picked up my Holton TR181 again after a few years of virtually no playing and practice I found I was really struggling to get any quality in the lower register using the JK 2AL  that had been my mouthpiece of choice these last 20 years.
As a quick fix I was thinking about picking up a much bigger mouthpiece, did a quick search for other's experience, stumbled onto this thread and thought "Well, it's worth a try."
Instead of buying a bucket I picked up an almost new Bach 1 1/2G for £20, and much to my delight found it pretty well matched my 2AL for tone quality in the upper register and suddenly I had back the clarity I couldn't find when using both valves and on pedal notes.
Now for lots of practice to try and recover the rest of my pedal range.

When I have more time free I will read the 70ish pages I haven't got through yet, as this has proved an interesting and enlightening conversation  Image


ttf_savio
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Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_savio »

Splendour, enjoy the 1 1/2g  Image

The new bach 1 1/2g got a lot of pepper her in lot of treads. Its nearly like its a looser.

There I disagree with all, even Chris. The modern Bach is still the nearest you can get to any Mt Vernon. They are all different, even the new, but in sound....only Bach mouthpieces are close to the Mt Vernon sound.
Leif


ttf_savio
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Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_savio »

I feel a little ashamed here since I posted so much and lot if it is a little bit.... Image Image you know the feeling...

I tried to make a poll here today but the forum seem to not have this option?

So I just make the questions manually.

1. How many of you play the 1 1/2g today?
2. What brand do you play, Schilke, Denis Wick, Doug Elliott, Greg Black, Hammond....?
3. How many tried it but had to leave it?
4. How many of you think the 1 1/2g have a future or might not have it?

Ok this will not be a real poll but it might give a little insight what people do and think today.

Thanks for answers dear bass players!

Leif
ttf_bonenick
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Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_bonenick »

Leif,

Wouldn't be best to post a poll?
ttf_blast
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Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_blast »

People should state where they live... I think you will find few 1 1/2 players in the US but still many in the UK and Europe.
Chris Stearn
ttf_bonenick
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Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_bonenick »

Quote from: blast on Feb 10, 2017, 08:12AMPeople should state where they live... I think you will find few 1 1/2 players in the US but still many in the UK and Europe.
Chris Stearn

A "big is beautiful" thing?
ttf_hyperbolica
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Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_hyperbolica »

I'm just a doubler/dabbler on bass but I play a VB 1 1/2g, as well as a Doug Elliot approximation, and I enjoy the Ferguson V. I have a 1 1/4g, but don't like the direction it pushes my tenor chops.
ttf_blast
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Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_blast »

I got hold of a Bach Artisan 1 1/2G yesterday. In many ways it is a very good mouthpiece... sound and blow are excellent... my section mates were split between the Artisan and the MV. but testing ended because the rim is simply dreadful !!!! Sharp inner rim, high point very much toward the inner and outer rim drops away rapidly. What were they thinking ?Nothing like any NY rims I have seen.

Chris Stearn
ttf_MoominDave
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Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_MoominDave »

I have a mouthpiece stamped "Holton 181" that is rather like that. In the same size, good sound, and the sharp rim makes pointy articulations easy. But it also is too uncomfortable to play.
ttf_mr.deacon
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Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_mr.deacon »

Quote from: MoominDave on Feb 23, 2017, 08:38AMI have a mouthpiece stamped "Holton 181" that is rather like that. In the same size, good sound, and the sharp rim makes pointy articulations easy. But it also is too uncomfortable to play.
I had one of those mouthpieces. Nice piece but that cookie cutter rim is ridiculous!
ttf_wgwbassbone
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Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_wgwbassbone »

Quote from: blast on Feb 23, 2017, 07:21AMI got hold of a Bach Artisan 1 1/2G yesterday. In many ways it is a very good mouthpiece... sound and blow are excellent... my section mates were split between the Artisan and the MV. but testing ended because the rim is simply dreadful !!!! Sharp inner rim, high point very much toward the inner and outer rim drops away rapidly. What were they thinking ?Nothing like any NY rims I have seen.

Chris Stearn
I tried that same mp. Same results.
ttf_Dan Hine
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Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_Dan Hine »

I have a Holton 1 1/2G that resembles the old Conn mouthpieces in shape.  I quite like it!
ttf_savio
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Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_savio »

I'm going to try it in a couple of years when the slow music shops in Norway finally find out there is a new bach mouthpiece....

The shires vintage also has a bit sharp rim, is it something like that one?

Leif
ttf_blast
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Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_blast »

I have modelled my MV rim onto the Artisan mouthpiece. I will take it into work today and see what the reaction is.

Chris Stearn
ttf_tbarh
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Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_tbarh »

Quote from: blast on Mar 07, 2017, 12:17AMI have modelled my MV rim onto the Artisan mouthpiece. I will take it into work today and see what the reaction is.

Chris Stearn
Exactly how sharp are the inner rim , Chris ?  Like a Conn 3B or Remington ? I could live happy with a rim contour like Denis Wick for instance, but ithe Conn rims are borderline painful..

Trond
ttf_wgwbassbone
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Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_wgwbassbone »

Quote from: blast on Mar 07, 2017, 12:17AMI have modelled my MV rim onto the Artisan mouthpiece. I will take it into work today and see what the reaction is.

Chris Stearn
Very interested in this!
ttf_blast
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Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_blast »

Quote from: tbarh on Mar 07, 2017, 04:30AMExactly how sharp are the inner rim , Chris ?  Like a Conn 3B or Remington ? I could live happy with a rim contour like Denis Wick for instance, but ithe Conn rims are borderline painful..

Trond

Hard for me to give you an accurate idea.... the MV I like is a little flatter than most with a good inner bite.

Bill.... you will get a chance to try it when you are over....

Chris Stearn
ttf_blast
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Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_blast »

Well, Bill (WGW) tried the Artisan today, and I think felt the same as me.... whilst not a bad mouthpiece, the extra weight and change of distribution of that weight on the outside does not improve the mouthpiece.... why did they do it ??
What is wanted is a real top quality copy with no messing around... no 'improvements'....
I have sent one the my mt vernons down to someone in London who will have it copied on a CNC lathe.... holding breath.....

Chris Stearn.
ttf_Gabe Langfur
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Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_Gabe Langfur »

I bought an Artisan 1G a while back out of curiosity. In that case, I think the weight helps it tremendously, and the other design tweaks they did are excellent. It ends up being a credible alternative to Yamaha Yeo mouthpiece, a Griego .75, a Greg Black 1-1/8G, or something like a 113/L or M Doug Elliott.
ttf_HouBassTrombone
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Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_HouBassTrombone »

Chris: let us know how it turns out!!
ttf_Fridge
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Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_Fridge »

Chris, I'm really interested in how this turns out.

EC
ttf_blast
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Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_blast »

Quote from: Gabe Langfur on Mar 30, 2017, 04:05PMI bought an Artisan 1G a while back out of curiosity. In that case, I think the weight helps it tremendously, and the other design tweaks they did are excellent. It ends up being a credible alternative to Yamaha Yeo mouthpiece, a Griego .75, a Greg Black 1-1/8G, or something like a 113/L or M Doug Elliott.

As far as I am aware, Vincent Bach never made a 1G, so I don't know what they found in the 'mouthpiece fault' but that 1G generally available could indeed do with some improvement.  As for the 1 1/2G, there are enough people out there that love their Mt Vernon examples to create a demand for copies that are the same as the original... however, I doubt that they can be recreated, which is why many of the copies have been 'improved'....
We shall see.

Chris Stearn
ttf_blast
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Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_blast »

Quote from: Fridge on Mar 30, 2017, 05:56PMChris, I'm really interested in how this turns out.

EC

Well, this is not my project.... as you can see, I have my doubts, but the guy doing it is very confident and the Zirconium Rath B2 copy was very accurate, apart from the rim, which changed under polishing. What they have is an early Mt Vernon example with periods after Mt and N Y and the slightly longer early shank. I think they plan to do it in brass first, then perhaps Zirconium, which I far prefer to Stainless.... a clone in brass would be fine with me...

Chris Stearn
ttf_savio
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Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_savio »

Quote from: blast on Mar 09, 2006, 12:49PMThe poor old Bach 1 1/2G...... it gets a hard time these days.
Ed Kleinhammer can't see a use for it in the modern orchestra...

Back to topic. Kleinhammer did use the bach 1 1/2g on all the famous Chicago recordings. Bruckner, Mahler, Shostakovich with Solti and Barenboim.

I have one question to all professional symphonic trombone players;

Most of the tenor symphonic players in the world have been on the same equipment for the last 50 years. Jay Friedman, Denis Wick, Ralph Sauer.

Why did the bass trombone players suddenly go so much bigger in 1980/90?

We must have a 1g or 60 size mouthpiece to get a big or loud sound? Much of the symphonic bass trombone sound is build on George Roberts.
I wonder why nearly all of the symphonic players adores him?

Louder? Bigger? Better?

What can we learn from George Roberts today?



Leif 


ttf_slideorama
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Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_slideorama »

Quote from: savio on Yesterday at 05:17 PMWhy did the bass trombone players suddenly go so much bigger in 1980/90?

Because of this kind of stuff, caught on tape:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=drhq4frGo60

Some conductors let some orchestras play as loud as humanly possible. People have been chasing after Herseth's sonic dominance for over half a century, especially those that sat with him on stage. Vernon has been the perfect vehicle for the bigger is better syndrome because he is a 1 in a million specimen himself, in the most awesome way! Norrell and Harwood were also uniquely suited to lead the arms race in a successful way, also on prominent recordings.

Regarding Roberts, I would venture to say that most pro orchestral players do not look to him as a model for style or sound. To further add fuel to the fire, I would say most players my age and younger have never even heard him play (consciously, that is).
ttf_savio
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Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_savio »

Quote from: slideorama on Yesterday at 06:11 PMBecause of this kind of stuff, caught on tape:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=drhq4frGo60

Some conductors let some orchestras play as loud as humanly possible. People have been chasing after Herseth's sonic dominance for over half a century, especially those that sat with him on stage. Vernon has been the perfect vehicle for the bigger is better syndrome because he is a 1 in a million specimen himself, in the most awesome way! Norrell and Harwood were also uniquely suited to lead the arms race in a successful way, also on prominent recordings.

Regarding Roberts, I would venture to say that most pro orchestral players do not look to him as a model for style or sound. To further add fuel to the fire, I would say most players my age and younger have never even heard him play (consciously, that is).

 Image

ok

Leif




ttf_The Sheriff
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Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_The Sheriff »

Quote from: slideorama on Yesterday at 06:11 PM
Regarding Roberts, I would venture to say that most pro orchestral players do not look to him as a model for style or sound. To further add fuel to the fire, I would say most players my age and younger have never even heard him play (consciously, that is).
===

That's a damn shame.

----
ttf_savio
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Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_savio »

Quote from: slideorama on Yesterday at 06:11 PMRegarding Roberts, I would venture to say that most pro orchestral players do not look to him as a model for style or sound.
Are you sure?

Quote from: slideorama on Yesterday at 06:11 PMTo further add fuel to the fire, I would say most players my age and younger have never even heard him play (consciously, that is).

That's true! But you have the opportunity to listen.

Leif
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Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_HouBassTrombone »

Quote from: savio on Yesterday at 05:17 PMBack to topic. Kleinhammer did use the bach 1 1/2g on all the famous Chicago recordings. Bruckner, Mahler, Shostakovich with Solti and Barenboim.

I have one question to all professional symphonic trombone players;

Most of the tenor symphonic players in the world have been on the same equipment for the last 50 years. Jay Friedman, Denis Wick, Ralph Sauer.

Why did the bass trombone players suddenly go so much bigger in 1980/90?

We must have a 1g or 60 size mouthpiece to get a big or loud sound? Much of the symphonic bass trombone sound is build on George Roberts.
I wonder why nearly all of the symphonic players adores him?

Louder? Bigger? Better?

What can we learn from George Roberts today?



Leif 


I wouldn't say that Ralph Sauer or Jay Friedman play the same horns they did in the 'old days. And Denis Wick had changed to a new Conn before he retired playing I believe.
Tenor players have changed quite a bit too. Look into the size mouthpieces a lot of guys play now.
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Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_bigbassbone1 »

Quote from: savio on Yesterday at 05:17 PMBack to topic. Kleinhammer did use the bach 1 1/2g on all the famous Chicago recordings. Bruckner, Mahler, Shostakovich with Solti and Barenboim.

I have one question to all professional symphonic trombone players;

Most of the tenor symphonic players in the world have been on the same equipment for the last 50 years. Jay Friedman, Denis Wick, Ralph Sauer.

Why did the bass trombone players suddenly go so much bigger in 1980/90?

We must have a 1g or 60 size mouthpiece to get a big or loud sound? Much of the symphonic bass trombone sound is build on George Roberts.
I wonder why nearly all of the symphonic players adores him?

Louder? Bigger? Better?

What can we learn from George Roberts today?



Leif 




I dont have any evidence for my thoughts but wanted to contribute none the less.

I think its pretty obvious that bass trombone has seen some amazing development over the last 50 years, mostly of course on how the instruments are made, and to some extent sound concepts and approach to playing also.
I did not grow up listening to george roberts, I only found his name when I saw him mentioned on the forum here, after which, I bought a solo CD of his.
I think you are absolutely correct, so much of what you hear in george roberts playing was and is an inspiration for so many players that followed him. Having said that, as per this discussion, I think most would say that modern professional bass trombone players do not play in a way that emulates to the letter the sound of george roberts. When I decided that I wanted to play trombone for a living, I did a lot of research and bought CD's of as many big name tenor and bass trombone players I could find. It wasn't until much later after I had done some years of listening and practice that I thought it might be interesting to see what gear some of these players were using. I discovered that the players and sounds I was hearing that inspired me most from my collection of recordings, were mostly American players who were using comparatively large equipment. For me, it was extremely exciting to hear players who had such command of their instrument like Alessi playing with amazing power and sustain but also with finesse in the extreme upper register. Charlie Vernon playing with unbelievable control in legato and soft playing but with a confronting and powerful low register down to notes I didn't even know were possible to play.

The qualities I think are important from George Roberts playing are still there. These modern players (bass and tenor) are playing with beautiful legato, rich song like sounds and attention to detail in the music. All that I think has happened is that its evolved. Whenever discussions come up about people playing big gear a handful of players here talk about modern sounds in a negative way. I dont think that is the case at all. Different yes, but no worse, and similar enough that I dont think anything has been lost in the process.

Whilst it is imperitive for developing musicians to listen to players like george roberts and the kleinhammer recordings where he is using the smaller gear, I myself, prefer to look forward in seeing where it is possible to move on and develop with trombone sounds, not making sure we are stuck in the past.

Another small, but relatively (i believe) major point, when was the last time a professional audition was won where a player was using a 1 1/2G sized mouthpiece? Im sure there are players in their jobs who have chosen to play one, but I would be surprised to hear if many auditions RECENTLY have been won on one. That is important to know if you want to make a living in bass trombone. Following on from that, I could be wrong about this, but in the top tier orchestras, really at the elite level of playing, how many bass trombone members are using a 1 1/2G? Id wager not many. Those players who command the most critical acclaim make the sounds now that inspire students and aspiring professionals. Its a sound that has evolved, not in a better or worse way, just different, and enough people agree on that, which I believe is why we dont have players in major orchestral positions sounding like george roberts, just nods and appreciation for what he did for the standard of playing.
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Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_bigbassbone1 »

Quote from: slideorama on Yesterday at 06:11 PMBecause of this kind of stuff, caught on tape:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=drhq4frGo60

Some conductors let some orchestras play as loud as humanly possible. People have been chasing after Herseth's sonic dominance for over half a century, especially those that sat with him on stage. Vernon has been the perfect vehicle for the bigger is better syndrome because he is a 1 in a million specimen himself, in the most awesome way! Norrell and Harwood were also uniquely suited to lead the arms race in a successful way, also on prominent recordings.

Regarding Roberts, I would venture to say that most pro orchestral players do not look to him as a model for style or sound. To further add fuel to the fire, I would say most players my age and younger have never even heard him play (consciously, that is).



Yup! That is an exciting sound! Nothing wrong with wanting to emulate that!
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Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

Post by ttf_tbarh »

A little nitpicking here maybe , but most "G.Roberts copy mouthpieces i have come across are actually oversize 1 1/2G pieces..
Besides ;  to attain the deep, dark sound of GR , some players may have tried bigger pieces to attain it..
Apropos :  i read an old ITA journal that had  short interviews and equipment surveys of the leading big band and jazz bass trombone players in the US.. By far the most used mouthpiece was made by Burt Herrick... ; oversized 1 1/2G

Trond
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