Trombone step/up

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ttf_anonymous
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Trombone step/up

Post by ttf_anonymous »

I am a high school student who is looking for a trombone that will be a good instrument in college. I’m planning to go into a degree of musical performance and I would like a trombone to do this with. I’m looking for a f attachment or a bass trombone but I’m not sure what brand and  trombone to go with. If anyone has any trombones that you would recommend, it would be greatly appreciated!
ttf_sirisobhakya
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Trombone step/up

Post by ttf_sirisobhakya »

What is your current instrument?

How much do you (or your parents) have for you to spend?
ttf_BGuttman
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Post by ttf_BGuttman »

If you are planning on a major in Music Performance you should have a private teacher whom you should ask.

My usual recommendation is to wait until you get to College and ask your professor.  Some have specific requirements and if you buy the "wrong" horn you will just have to buy something else.

In general, most schools require a large bore tenor with f.  There are any number that would fit the bill, depending on your pocketbook.
ttf_anonymous
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Post by ttf_anonymous »

Quote from: sirisobhakya on Jan 24, 2018, 03:18PMWhat is your current instrument?

How much do you (or your parents) have for you to spend?

I’ve saved around $1750 but I’ll probably have saved more by this summer
ttf_anonymous
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Post by ttf_anonymous »

Quote from: Jake The Snake on Jan 24, 2018, 03:23PMI’ve saved around $1750 but I’ll probably have saved more by this summer

I’m also currently using a conn 88H. It’s a good horn but they do not make the trigger it uses anymore and I’m afraid it’s starting to go. It would be around $400 to get a new trigger so I’ve decided to get a new trombone.
ttf_sirisobhakya
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Post by ttf_sirisobhakya »

What is wrong with the trigger? Does it stuck, leak, or something? Can you still use it?

If you can, and if the overall horn is in good shape, the 88H may serve you well into college and probably beyond. It is already a pro-level horn on its own.

But I also agree with Mr. Guttman. If you have teacher, ask him/her. If you don't, wait until you go to college and ask there.
ttf_anonymous
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Trombone step/up

Post by ttf_anonymous »

Quote from: sirisobhakya on Jan 24, 2018, 03:32PMWhat is wrong with the trigger? Does it stuck, leak, or something? Can you still use it?

If you can, and if the overall horn is in good shape, the 88H may serve you well into college and probably beyond. It is already a pro-level horn on its own.

But I also agree with Mr. Guttman. If you have teacher, ask him/her. If you don't, wait until you go to college and ask there.

The trigger has a leak in it and the two local band repair shops have told me I might be able to get a few more years out of it before it goes, so im thinking about selling it and getting a new/used trombone. Thank you for your advice!
ttf_pompatus
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Post by ttf_pompatus »

The 88H is generally considered one of the old “standard” choices.  There may be more modern selections, but you’d spend far less replating the rotor or fixing the trigger issue you’ve got going on.  If the bell plays well you could always consider changing the valve out for something else, like an axial or Olsen or CR or any of a number of choices.  For under $2000, however, you can easily find a good pre-owned Bach 42-variant, or Yamaha Xeno, or Getzen Custom, etc...  There are a bunch of “pro” level horns to be found in that price range.

The suggestion has been made to wait until you can consult with the teacher you’ll be studying with in college, and that is probably the best course of action, imho.  In any case, best of luck in your search!
ttf_anonymous
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Post by ttf_anonymous »

Quote from: pompatus on Jan 24, 2018, 03:39PMThe 88H is generally considered one of the old “standard” choices.  There may be more modern selections, but you’d spend far less replating the rotor or fixing the trigger issue you’ve got going on.  If the bell plays well you could always consider changing the valve out for something else, like an axial or Olsen or CR or any of a number of choices.  For under $2000, however, you can easily find a good pre-owned Bach 42-variant, or Yamaha Xeno, or Getzen Custom, etc...  There are a bunch of “pro” level horns to be found in that price range.

The suggestion has been made to wait until you can consult with the teacher you’ll be studying with in college, and that is probably the best course of action, imho.  In any case, best of luck in your search!

Thank you for your insight!
ttf_Bach42T
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Post by ttf_Bach42T »

I was going to buy a new Conn 88H, however, the quality has dropped so considerably with the move to Elkhart it's kind of a crap shoot what to expect coming out of the box.   That is incredibly frustrating, when discretionary income is available.  Also, used 88Hs (doesn't matter from which factory and time period) have all gone up, even abused ones on eBay.
ttf_Le.Tromboniste
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Post by ttf_Le.Tromboniste »

You might want to have a professional player try your horn and give their opinion on if it's a good one and worth having the valve replaced before thinking of getting a new horn. Despite more expensive and fancy options existing in the market, an 88H is  still very much a high level instrument. Many, many professional orchestral players still play them and they have been one of the standards for decades. In your price range, youre looking at equivalent instruments anyway, so in any case wathever you got, you wouldn't be upgrading, just cross-grading.
ttf_MikeBMiller
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Post by ttf_MikeBMiller »

On the other hand, nothing makes you want to practice more than a shiny new instrument! If you have close to 2 grand saved, you are not far off from a new Yamaha or Getzen.
ttf_sirisobhakya
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Post by ttf_sirisobhakya »

Quote from: MikeBMiller on Jan 24, 2018, 04:49PMOn the other hand, nothing makes you want to practice more than a shiny new instrument! If you have close to 2 grand saved, you are not far off from a new Yamaha or Getzen.

A new Xeno, the cheapest one (YSL-882) is around $3000-$3500, roughly converted from JPY. The instruments in $2K price range would be YSL-620 and YSL-820GII, which can be considered as a (slight) "step-down" from 88H: they lack some features/finish found in more "pro" horn like those from the Xeno line, which is equivalent in grade to the 88H.

That is according to the list price, though. If your local music store has some promotion that you can get a Xeno within $2000-$2500, that is a good deal.
ttf_BGuttman
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Post by ttf_BGuttman »

The Yamaha 6xx series is Pro.  I have a 682 bought new some 30 years ago.  At the time it was the top of the line and replaced the 648, which was also considered a pro horn.  The 620 is also a pro horn.  The Xeno is a "deluxe" horn.  Note that Walter Barrett (WaltTrombone) plays a 620 professionally.
ttf_sirisobhakya
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Post by ttf_sirisobhakya »

They say in their catalogue that the 600 series is a "professional" grade (well it was, before the advent of Xeno line), but I notice that some features that can be found on Bach, or Getzen, or Conn (which are supposed to be "professional" horn), are missing. As far as I can tell:

- trigger thumb pad: both the 600 series and 820GII have only hook-like trigger.

- two-piece slide reciever (the 820GII has it, and I recall Yamaha Japan offered it on 600 series as well, at least for a while)

- string valve linkage (in 600 of some market only, but the most recent catalogue seems to show that all have mechanical linkage)

- nickel slide oversleeve

- other minor cosmetic detail such as flanged tuning slide rim, etc.

But I understand that these are of very questionable importance to the playability.
ttf_BGuttman
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Post by ttf_BGuttman »

My 682 has a trigger that looks like a Conn 88H (simple bar).  It has a direct mechanical linkage with a bunch of rotating joints in various angles for a very smooth throw. 

The tuning slide is reversed but there is no lip on the receiver sides.  i didn't consider this a major problem.

The rotor is oversize and the wrap is quite open in spite of not being a true "open wrap".  My one complaint is that even pulling both slides on the attachment as far as they go I still don't get an E attachment (something conventional wrap Conn 88H and Bach 42B attachments give).

I don't have removeable leadpipes, but then again the Bach 42B and Conn 88H of the period where I bought my horn didn't either.

And my slide kicked *** of the Conn 88H and Bach 42B I compared it to.
ttf_sirisobhakya
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Post by ttf_sirisobhakya »

Quote from: BGuttman on Jan 24, 2018, 09:08PMMy 682 has a trigger that looks like a Conn 88H (simple bar).  It has a direct mechanical linkage with a bunch of rotating joints in various angles for a very smooth throw. 

I always thought Conn's trigger is shaped rod like Bach's. I like Bach's trigger, on cosmetic ground only. It looks classic. But I prefer my Yamaha trigger with "adjustable" thumb plate (thank you for your answer on my other thread!).

How is Conn's rotor linkage? I have played a Conn only once (my bandmate's), and it has the CL valve. Bach's linkage always feel clunky and unwieldy for me. Perhaps that is because all the Bachs I played belong to school/university, but even the university's one (a 50B2O which is almost brand new and should have been took care of much better) still didn't feel right.
ttf_vegasbound
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Post by ttf_vegasbound »

Have you got a place at college?

Get your 88h repaired, use the rest of your money for lessons with the prof at the college you would like to attend, and music and going to concerts!

When you have a place and the prof tells you ... That 88h is holding you back...then could be the time to change it!
ttf_bigbandaxes
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Post by ttf_bigbandaxes »

This is a really tough question. I know, because I went through it too. I bought an F attachment horn because my teacher and professor said it was necessary. The happiest day of my college life was when I traded it in on a small bore straight horn near the end of my freshman year. My professor was mad and said I wouldn't be able to play the reqired music. But I proved him wrong and played all the "required" legit music on it. Just had to work a little harder. The small bore fit me and the style of music I wanted to persue which was jazz/pop/rock/studio.

So what I'm saying is pick an axe that fits you and your musical goals.
ttf_BGuttman
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Post by ttf_BGuttman »

Quote from: sirisobhakya on Jan 24, 2018, 09:49PM...
How is Conn's rotor linkage? I have played a Conn only once (my bandmate's), and it has the CL valve. Bach's linkage always feel clunky and unwieldy for me. Perhaps that is because all the Bachs I played belong to school/university, but even the university's one (a 50B2O which is almost brand new and should have been took care of much better) still didn't feel right.

Don't know about the current ones, but all the 88H's I've ever played (3) had string linkages.
ttf_Radar
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Trombone step/up

Post by ttf_Radar »

I would echo what a lot of others have said here, get the 88H fixed (you'll need to do that if you want to sell it to help pay for the new one), and wait until you're in college or at least have some input from the Trombone department at the school you'll be attending.  An 88H is a good pro horn, but there are more modern choices that seem to be preferred these days in the boutique and custom lines.  There are a few good reasons for getting the 88H fixed, one is you can sell it with a clear conscience and you'll get more for it if it's in good working condition.  If you decide not to sell it having a good backup horn is never a bad idea for a student or pro who depends on their instrument.   
ttf_Full Pedal Trombonist
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Post by ttf_Full Pedal Trombonist »

If I were in your situation I would see if the 88H and saved up money could score a new horn that would allow me to “fit in” with what I would expect to see around me as a large bore tenor player. When I was in university I knew what I liked to play, my Minick TR180, and what fit in with the players and horns around me, a Yamaha 882G. At least when I wasn’t in a jazz band.

Why fit in? That Holton was a beast and sounded great, but the conductor thought it was an old outdated horn compared to the Bachs and Yamaha’s in my section. But she also thought my gold plated 2B Silversonic I played in one of the jazz bands was a beginner horn because she thought King only made student horns. Look the part and play what feels good.
ttf_Dukesboneman
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Post by ttf_Dukesboneman »

I would stay with the 88H for now. Take it to a GOOD Repair tech and have it worked on. The 88H has been the Orchestral standard (along with the 42B)
for years. It`s still the sound people are trying to replicate on some Shires and Edwards set-ups.
ttf_schlitzbeer
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Post by ttf_schlitzbeer »

Quote from: Full Pedal Trombonist on Jan 25, 2018, 05:43PMWhy fit in? That Holton was a beast and sounded great, but the conductor thought it was an old outdated horn compared to the Bachs and Yamaha’s in my section.

That conductor either has a drug, or mental health issue.
ttf_Le.Tromboniste
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Post by ttf_Le.Tromboniste »

Quote from: Radar on Jan 25, 2018, 04:37PMIf you decide not to sell it having a good backup horn is never a bad idea for a student or pro who depends on their instrument.  

That 88H doesn't have to be a "back up horn", it can be the main axe for a college student or any professional player. I don't have anything against boutique horns, and I've tried some that were stellar, and yes they have been the trend for a while (and for good reasons). If you can afford them and the best (for your needs) horn you try happens to be a custom or boutique horn, by all means get that. But they're not inherently superior or better. Many, many professionals, some among the best in the world, play 42s, 88Hs or clones of these. The very best modern trombones (for my taste and my playing) I've ever tried were Bachs and Conns (including Greenhoe optimized) and the Courtois 88H clone.

Students getting told that they NEED a Shires or Edwards or whatnot and that a 88H or 42B is not good enough or serious enough anymore for a college student or for professional life is frankly one of the many things that are very wrong in the current trombone culture (particularly in the US/North America). First the horn doesn't have to cost 4-6K$ to be a good horn, second it's not about the horn, it's about how you play it.

Plus there are potential big downsides in getting a custom boutique horn as a student : when you're in high school you most often don't know quite exactly what you want, or know how to get it; and what you think you need at 19 vs you actually need once you're further in your studies or done with them are often very different. The nice expensive Shires with a very specific combination of parts you get at 19 might not be easy to sell when you want to switch. Many people are looking for a 42 or 88H, and so they are easy to sell, with a more or less predictable resell price if it's good and in good shape. People who buy custom instruments usually have a more specific combination they're looking for, and the chances of your horn fitting what the buyer wants are often slim. I see a lot of custom horns either taking months or years to sell, or selling for much less compared to the original price than stock horns do. I have also had many friends who bought nice Shires with weird specs in college, then switched to conventional stock horns by the end of grad school.
ttf_watermailonman
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Post by ttf_watermailonman »

All this talk about specification? You make a horn sound good or not. If you can then it is a pro horn. I would repair the horn (if possible) and save the money until you reached a very high level of playing. It could be in college or even after college. There will be a time when you try a trombone and find that one to be much better/easier to play/fits your style and music better. When that time comes you should invest in the best trombone money can get. It could be the modular one with removable leadpipe and personal choices to switch parts. If your 88h is not totally worthless that's what I'd do. If it is not possible to repair or the cost is to high then I would look into another used instrument. One of my best instruments is an Elkhart Conn 88h from 1955 another is a 1966 Holton tr-150, a A.Courtouis from 2006, a Bach 36BO from 2008. There lots of older horns that play well, both old and shiny. Aftermarket is good that means it is worth about the same the day after you've bought it. A new horn looses a lot of its value the day after it was bought. If you want new because you think this makes you more motivated then it is another question.

/Tom
ttf_Radar
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Post by ttf_Radar »

Quote from: Le.Tromboniste on Jan 26, 2018, 07:22AMThat 88H doesn't have to be a "back up horn", it can be the main axe for a college student or any professional player. I don't have anything against boutique horns, and I've tried some that were stellar, and yes they have been the trend for a while (and for good reasons). If you can afford them and the best (for your needs) horn you try happens to be a custom or boutique horn, by all means get that. But they're not inherently superior or better. Many, many professionals, some among the best in the world, play 42s, 88Hs or clones of these. The very best modern trombones (for my taste and my playing) I've ever tried were Bachs and Conns (including Greenhoe optimized) and the Courtois 88H clone.

Students getting told that they NEED a Shires or Edwards or whatnot and that a 88H or 42B is not good enough or serious enough anymore for a college student or for professional life is frankly one of the many things that are very wrong in the current trombone culture (particularly in the US/North America). First the horn doesn't have to cost 4-6K$ to be a good horn, second it's not about the horn, it's about how you play it.

Plus there are potential big downsides in getting a custom boutique horn as a student : when you're in high school you most often don't know quite exactly what you want, or know how to get it; and what you think you need at 19 vs you actually need once you're further in your studies or done with them are often very different. The nice expensive Shires with a very specific combination of parts you get at 19 might not be easy to sell when you want to switch. Many people are looking for a 42 or 88H, and so they are easy to sell, with a more or less predictable resell price if it's good and in good shape. People who buy custom instruments usually have a more specific combination they're looking for, and the chances of your horn fitting what the buyer wants are often slim. I see a lot of custom horns either taking months or years to sell, or selling for much less compared to the original price than stock horns do. I have also had many friends who bought nice Shires with weird specs in college, then switched to conventional stock horns by the end of grad school.
I agree with everything you said:  I didn't mean to imply that the 88H was an inferior instrument, I own and play an older Elkhart 88H myself as my primary tenor, and have no desire to change that now.  My point was it doesn't fit in with the current fad / trend of pushing designer instruments with high price tags. The majority of my post was to convince the OP to repair his 88H and play it until at College where he may find that they want or encourage him to play something different. He may actually be steered toward bass when he gets there, so why spend a lot of money now when he has a good prolevel horn (as long as it can be economically repaired). 
ttf_bigbandaxes
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Trombone step/up

Post by ttf_bigbandaxes »

Quote from: Full Pedal Trombonist on Jan 25, 2018, 05:43PMIf I were in your situation I would see if the 88H and saved up money could score a new horn that would allow me to “fit in” with what I would expect to see around me as a large bore tenor player. When I was in university I knew what I liked to play, my Minick TR180, and what fit in with the players and horns around me, a Yamaha 882G. At least when I wasn’t in a jazz band.

Why fit in? That Holton was a beast and sounded great, but the conductor thought it was an old outdated horn compared to the Bachs and Yamaha’s in my section. But she also thought my gold plated 2B Silversonic I played in one of the jazz bands was a beginner horn because she thought King only made student horns. Look the part and play what feels good.

Sounds like your coductor didn't know what she was talking about! Been there! I was a rebel in my college days. I didn't care about fitting in. I did graduate, but the powers that be made it difficult.
ttf_bigbandaxes
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Post by ttf_bigbandaxes »

Quote from: Full Pedal Trombonist on Jan 25, 2018, 05:43PMIf I were in your situation I would see if the 88H and saved up money could score a new horn that would allow me to “fit in” with what I would expect to see around me as a large bore tenor player. When I was in university I knew what I liked to play, my Minick TR180, and what fit in with the players and horns around me, a Yamaha 882G. At least when I wasn’t in a jazz band.

Why fit in? That Holton was a beast and sounded great, but the conductor thought it was an old outdated horn compared to the Bachs and Yamaha’s in my section. But she also thought my gold plated 2B Silversonic I played in one of the jazz bands was a beginner horn because she thought King only made student horns. Look the part and play what feels good.

Sounds like your coductor didn't know what she was talking about! Been there! I was a rebel in my college days. I didn't care about fitting in. I did graduate, but the powers that be made it difficult.
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