Brad Close sackbuts

ttf_Blowero · Post by **ttf_Blowero** » Sat Jun 24, 2017 8:00 pm

I will have samples of my new line of hand-made sackbuts at the ITA Festival in Redlands, CA next week for anyone who would like to try them out, as well as sackbut mouthpieces. Noah Gladstone has agreed to be the dealer for these, so more info and pricing to come.

-Brad Close

ttf_harrison.t.reed · Post by **ttf_harrison.t.reed** » Sat Jun 24, 2017 8:25 pm

ttf_SilverBone · Post by **ttf_SilverBone** » Sat Jun 24, 2017 11:56 pm

Quote from: harrison.t.reed on Jun 24, 2017, 08:25PM

ttf_chipolah · Post by **ttf_chipolah** » Sun Jun 25, 2017 12:53 am

Hey Brad... Looking good !!! Good luck with them. Chip

ttf_heinz gries · Post by **ttf_heinz gries** » Sun Jun 25, 2017 12:55 am

nice look

ttf_afugate · Post by **ttf_afugate** » Sun Jun 25, 2017 5:29 am

Very cool.

Is the left hand usage substantially different on this horn? If so, is that common for sackbut? I don't think I could hold this horn with a traditional left-hand grip. (I hope this doesn't sound like griping or trolling -- I really am just interested in the intention and mechanics of the grip.

)

--Andy in OKC

ttf_bbocaner · Post by **ttf_bbocaner** » Sun Jun 25, 2017 6:07 am

They look nice! I can see the hand burnishing marks in the bell and the twisted wire on the nuremburg bead is particularly beautiful. No ITF for me this year, but I look forward to trying them out at some point!!

Are they based on particular historical instruments?

ttf_harrison.t.reed · Post by **ttf_harrison.t.reed** » Sun Jun 25, 2017 6:49 am

I see a bass and tenor. Is there gonna be an alto too? What mouthpieces are available? Specs? Bell position (4th, 3rd?)

Wow!

ttf_Blowero · Post by **ttf_Blowero** » Sun Jun 25, 2017 12:44 pm

Quote from: harrison.t.reed on Jun 25, 2017, 06:49AMI see a bass and tenor. Is there gonna be an alto too? What mouthpieces are available? Specs? Bell position (4th, 3rd?)

Wow!
The last 2 pictures are the alto. These are 3rd position bell, but could be made as 4th position if desired. There will be an alto mouthpiece, 3 sizes of tenor mouthpiece, and a bass mouthpiece.

http://brassmedic.com/Sackbuts.htm

ttf_Blowero · Post by **ttf_Blowero** » Sun Jun 25, 2017 12:55 pm

Quote from: bbocaner on Jun 25, 2017, 06:07AMThey look nice! I can see the hand burnishing marks in the bell and the twisted wire on the nuremburg bead is particularly beautiful. No ITF for me this year, but I look forward to trying them out at some point!!

Are they based on particular historical instruments?

I hope you can try them at some point. The tenor is based on Drewelwecz, the bass after Hainlein, and the alto after Starck.

ttf_Blowero · Post by **ttf_Blowero** » Sun Jun 25, 2017 12:58 pm

Quote from: afugate on Jun 25, 2017, 05:29AMVery cool.

Is the left hand usage substantially different on this horn? If so, is that common for sackbut? I don't think I could hold this horn with a traditional left-hand grip. (I hope this doesn't sound like griping or trolling -- I really am just interested in the intention and mechanics of the grip.

)

--Andy in OKC
Yes, sackbut is held differently than modern trombone. There are various grip solutions. If you look at pictures or videos of players you can see the different ways they are held. Also, the bass can easily have a thumb rest attached at the bell receiver area to allow for a modern type grip.

ttf_renbaroque · Post by **ttf_renbaroque** » Sun Jun 25, 2017 3:41 pm

This certainly passes the eye test! Nice burnished texture. We really have to understand it is NOT the shape and dimensions that makes a sackbut a sackbut, but the proper building technique is.

Anyone besides Noah in the LA who knows these things tested them yet? Adam Bregman perhaps?

ttf_Le.Tromboniste · Post by **ttf_Le.Tromboniste** » Sun Jun 25, 2017 6:46 pm

Aw shoot! I just flew back from California today, I wish I could have tried them out...

I'm curious, did you only take the bell diameter and approximate the taper, or did you build mandrels that follow the taper and curve of the originals?

ttf_afugate · Post by **ttf_afugate** » Mon Jun 26, 2017 4:38 am

Quote from: Blowero on Jun 25, 2017, 12:58PMYes, sackbut is held differently than modern trombone. There are various grip solutions. If you look at pictures or videos of players you can see the different ways they are held. Also, the bass can easily have a thumb rest attached at the bell receiver area to allow for a modern type grip.

Thanks, Brad. I'll google around.

Good luck with these!

--Andy in OKC

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Mon Jun 26, 2017 8:12 am

Quote from: afugate on Jun 26, 2017, 04:38AMThanks, Brad. I'll google around.

Good luck with these!

--Andy in OKC

If you look at Ken Biggs (KBiggs) avatar, he's holding his trombone like they hold the sackbuts in a lot of the pictures (which I assume wasn't an invention of the artists). It's not going to work well on an instrument with lousy slide action and an unsoldered mouthpiece, though.

ttf_Le.Tromboniste · Post by **ttf_Le.Tromboniste** » Mon Jun 26, 2017 11:21 am

Quote from: afugate on Jun 25, 2017, 05:29AMVery cool.

Is the left hand usage substantially different on this horn? If so, is that common for sackbut? I don't think I could hold this horn with a traditional left-hand grip. (I hope this doesn't sound like griping or trolling -- I really am just interested in the intention and mechanics of the grip.

)

--Andy in OKC

Lots of sackbut players keep a modern grip out of habit,sometimes wrapping leather around the flat bell brace or using the various add-ons that people put on modern trombones (leather straps, Neotec grip, etc).

A lot of us also just find a different grip that feels comfortable. The one that feels great for me is this :
Holding the horn like you would hold a cigar, in the crease between your index and middle fingers (with the middle finger behind the slide brace and under the receiver/inner slide tube) and my thumb resting on the mouthpiece shank or cup for balance (taking on the role your index finger usually has in a modern grip)

That grip has a really nice advantage. Some horns have very spiky and uncomfortable bell braces, or have the bell brace simply too far to even reach it with your thumb (i.e. Bass sackbuts, German romantic trombones). That grip doesn't rely on the bell brace and so works on any horn, so it's one fewer adaptation for your body when you change instruments. I actually use it on my old friction-fit Conn because the joint comes loose from the sustained pressure of the standard grip. My sackbut grip takes the stress out of the bell section, so the joint stays tight.

ttf_Blowero · Post by **ttf_Blowero** » Mon Jun 26, 2017 1:20 pm

Quote from: Le.Tromboniste on Jun 25, 2017, 06:46PMAw shoot! I just flew back from California today, I wish I could have tried them out...

I'm curious, did you only take the bell diameter and approximate the taper, or did you build mandrels that follow the taper and curve of the originals?

I determined the bell tapers by cutting the sheet brass to the correct dimensions before forming the bells, allowing for how much it is going to stretch in the hammering process. The bells are not spun on a mandrel; they are hammered and then burnished.

ttf_Le.Tromboniste · Post by **ttf_Le.Tromboniste** » Mon Jun 26, 2017 1:50 pm

Quote from: Blowero on Jun 26, 2017, 01:20PMI determined the bell tapers by cutting the sheet brass to the correct dimensions before forming the bells, allowing for how much it is going to stretch in the hammering process. The bells are not spun on a mandrel; they are hammered and then burnished.

Cool! Glad to hear you make them with historical techniques. Can't wait to try them out and hear about pricing.

Just wondering because the taper looks different (at least from the picture) on your alto than other copies of the Starck I've seen.

There are a couple of guys in the Bay area that I was just with a couple days ago that are in the market for good, well-made instruments copied from historical instruments. They're not on the Forum but I'll be sure to let them know about pricing when it's announced!

ttf_Blowero · Post by **ttf_Blowero** » Mon Jun 26, 2017 2:17 pm

Quote from: Le.Tromboniste on Jun 26, 2017, 01:50PMCool! Glad to hear you make them with historical techniques. Can't wait to try them out and hear about pricing.

Just wondering because the taper looks different (at least from the picture) on your alto than other copies of the Starck I've seen.

Yes, you're right about that. I wasn't able to find exact bell taper measurements on the Starck alto, which is why I'm not referring to it as a replica on my web page. My alto plays very well, but I would like to do further research in the future so that I can offer a precise reproduction of that instrument. The slide bore and bell diameter are correct, but as you said, the exact rate of taper of the bell is an approximation on the alto.

ttf_Le.Tromboniste · Post by **ttf_Le.Tromboniste** » Mon Jun 26, 2017 2:54 pm

Quote from: Blowero on Jun 26, 2017, 02:17PMYes, you're right about that. I wasn't able to find exact bell taper measurements on the Starck alto, which is why I'm not referring to it as a replica on my web page. My alto plays very well, but I would like to do further research in the future so that I can offer a precise reproduction of that instrument. The slide bore and bell diameter are correct, but as you said, the exact rate of taper of the bell is an approximation on the alto.

I'm sure you have already got them, but for anybody out there interested in these sorts of things, one can order full-size technical drawings of historical trombones from museums and universities. For instance, the Starck 1670 alto blueprints are 7,50 Euros at the Germanisches Nationalmuseum.

ttf_Blowero · Post by **ttf_Blowero** » Mon Jun 26, 2017 3:02 pm

Quote from: Le.Tromboniste on Jun 26, 2017, 02:54PMI'm sure you have already got them, but for anybody out there interested in these sorts of things, one can order full-size technical drawings of historical trombones from museums and universities. For instance, the Starck 1670 alto blueprints are 7,50 Euros at the Germanisches Nationalmuseum.
Yes, I am planning to use the blueprints for future alto production. Thanks for the suggestion.

ttf_Le.Tromboniste · Post by **ttf_Le.Tromboniste** » Mon Jun 26, 2017 3:50 pm

There is also an earlier alto by Hainlein which I'm always surprised is not copied by anyone aside from Van der Heide - given the popularity of the Hainlein tenor replicas. It's in a private collection, but I think it'd be worth looking into. The Starck is apparently a very good instrument (and the Egger copies are stellar), but it has a much narrower bell throat and much more flared bell (in proportion), and a much brighter sound, compared to what we use for tenor and bass sackbuts.

ttf_SBMaestro · Post by **ttf_SBMaestro** » Thu Jun 29, 2017 9:08 am

I was at the ITF yesterday and got to play one of Brad's tenor sackbuts--and it was EXCELLENT! It is a very lightweight horn that speaks very easily throughout the entire range, and the intonation was spot-on. The instrument makes it easy for any trombone player that is new to the sackbut to quickly adjust to sackbut playing. The mouthpiece (also made by Brad) felt comparable to the Van der Heide mouthpieces that I am used to using. Great work, Brad--keep it up!

ttf_jack · Post by **ttf_jack** » Thu Jun 29, 2017 9:13 am

Thanks for the review, SBMaestro.
Did you find the price?

ttf_Posaunus · Post by **ttf_Posaunus** » Mon Jul 03, 2017 9:05 pm

I also tried Brad's tenor sackbut Saturday at the ITF in Redlands. Not only do all his sackbuts look great, the tenor played beautifully. As SBMaestro wrote, it blew evenly throughout the entire range (with Brad's #2 mouthpiece). The slide worked fine. Not quite authentic - it has a water valve! (Yes!) I did not play the alto or bass.

It's been a very long time since I played sackbut seriously, but if someone would hire me for a few early music gigs, this is the instrument that I would purchase in a flash. The price for the tenor was listed at $3,400.

Congratulations to Brad for a job (very) well done.

ttf_Blowero · Post by **ttf_Blowero** » Mon Jul 03, 2017 11:37 pm

Quote from: Posaunus on Jul 03, 2017, 09:05PMI also tried Brad's tenor sackbut Saturday at the ITF in Redlands. Not only do all his sackbuts look great, the tenor played beautifully. As SBMaestro wrote, it blew evenly throughout the entire range (with Brad's #2 mouthpiece). The slide worked fine. Not quite authentic - it has a water valve! (Yes!) I did not play the alto or bass.

It's been a very long time since I played sackbut seriously, but if someone would hire me for a few early music gigs, this is the instrument that I would purchase in a flash. The price for the tenor was listed at $3,400.

Congratulations to Brad for a job (very) well done.

Thanks for the kind words. The tenor and alto are both priced at $2,500 and the bass at $3,400. Mouthpieces are $125 in raw brass or $160 in silver plate.

ttf_afugate · Post by **ttf_afugate** » Tue Jul 04, 2017 12:12 pm

Quote from: BGuttman on Jun 26, 2017, 08:12AMIf you look at Ken Biggs (KBiggs) avatar, he's holding his trombone like they hold the sackbuts in a lot of the pictures (which I assume wasn't an invention of the artists). It's not going to work well on an instrument with lousy slide action and an unsoldered mouthpiece, though.

Thx!

--Andy in OKC

ttf_Posaunus · Post by **ttf_Posaunus** » Tue Jul 04, 2017 2:49 pm

Quote from: Blowero on Jul 03, 2017, 11:37PMThe tenor and alto are both priced at $2,500 and the bass at $3,400. Mouthpieces are $125 in raw brass or $160 in silver plate.

Sorry about misrepresenting your prices, Brad - I misread the price tag. $2,500 is a fair price for your high-quality (and beautiful) tenor sackbut!

I hope that others will try your entire line, and will like them as much as I did.

ttf_Posaunus · Post by **ttf_Posaunus** » Tue Jul 04, 2017 2:49 pm

Quote from: Blowero on Jul 03, 2017, 11:37PMThe tenor and alto are both priced at $2,500 and the bass at $3,400. Mouthpieces are $125 in raw brass or $160 in silver plate.

Sorry about misrepresenting your prices, Brad - I misread the price tag. $2,500 is a fair price for your high-quality (and beautiful) tenor sackbut!

I hope that others will try your entire line, and will like them as much as I did.