Advice on Hitting High Notes?

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Advice on Hitting High Notes?

Post by ttf_Geezerhorn » Sun Jul 09, 2017 1:32 pm

Quote from: Piano man on Jul 09, 2017, 01:17PMI think he was saying that Alessi's approach was the opposite of yours. I'm sure there's more than one way to do it.

That darn Harrison. lol

Actually, it didn't appear that Joe was describing how to find high notes. It sounded as though he was describing how to play them with you-know-what to the walls. That is presumably after they had been found.  Image

Quote from: timothy42b on Jul 09, 2017, 11:34AMI sense a challenge, veiled in the earlier posts and more explicit here. 

Waiting...  Image

-------------------------------------------------

OBTW, guys - go give Tom a critique on his latest recording. I think he's feeling a little unloved!

...Geezer
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Post by ttf_harrison.t.reed » Sun Jul 09, 2017 3:09 pm

Like Doug said, you have to squeak it out at first to help figure out to play with a "chest voice".
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Post by ttf_Geezerhorn » Sun Jul 09, 2017 3:21 pm

Quote from: harrison.t.reed on Jul 09, 2017, 03:09PMLike Doug said, you have to squeak it out at first to help figure out to play with a "chest voice".

Isn't that a common pedagogical practice?

...Geezer
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Post by ttf_timothy42b » Sun Jul 09, 2017 4:01 pm

Quote from: Geezerhorn on Jul 09, 2017, 01:32PM
Waiting...  Image

...Geezer

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zdgykIvo0Y

That didn't turn out as good as I'd planned.  If possible I'll do another one when I'm fresh and delete that one.

First, geezer and I have very different approaches to recordings.  He polishes them into works of art, while I use them as scientific documentation of a work in progress, warts and all. 

But anyway.  How does harrison nail that high note cold?  He has it firmly in his ear first. 

The point of the range rip I was trying to demonstrate, and fell so short on, is to fix the high note in your ear.  It's not primarily a strength exercise.  Usually I can get at least the G doing that. 

Finally, why am I using a pBone?  My Bach is in the repair shop, see the other thread.  Trust me, the mini pBone is not easier to play. 
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Post by ttf_Geezerhorn » Sun Jul 09, 2017 4:04 pm

Quote from: timothy42b on Jul 09, 2017, 04:01PMhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zdgykIvo0Y

That didn't turn out as good as I'd planned.  If possible I'll do another one when I'm fresh and delete that one.

First, geezer and I have very different approaches to recordings.  He polishes them into works of art, while I use them as scientific documentation of a work in progress, warts and all. 

But anyway.  How does harrison nail that high note cold?  He has it firmly in his ear first. 

The point of the range rip I was trying to demonstrate, and fell so short on, is to fix the high note in your ear.  It's not primarily a strength exercise.  Usually I can get at least the G doing that. 

Finally, why am I using a pBone?  My Bach is in the repair shop, see the other thread.  Trust me, the mini pBone is not easier to play. 

I think this is by far your best vid yet!

...Geezer
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Post by ttf_harrison.t.reed » Sun Jul 09, 2017 4:26 pm

Quote from: Geezerhorn on Jul 09, 2017, 03:21PMIsn't that a common pedagogical practice?

...Geezer

All seriousness aside (See my video again. Very serious business...($19.99)), I actually wouldn't advocate squeaking much beyond hearing that it's possible to play a certain note. Sure everyone is going to do it, even if it's deep in the privacy of their home whether they are told to or not. But squeaking it out with a strained embouchure and lack of air moving through your chops will hurt you in the long run.

One trick I used for a young girl I taught years ago, who just wanted a solid "high Bb", was to hand her my jinbao alto and let her borrow it. During that lesson, she was easily able to play the Bb on the alto. The difference is the air needed to achieve the right resistance to get the note out. She wasn't  pinching or squeaking it out on the alto. It was easy for her to figure out how to get that same feeling on her tenor during the same lesson.

I like the head voice vs chest voice comparison that Ian Bousfield uses in his video on the upper register.
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Post by ttf_Geezerhorn » Sun Jul 09, 2017 4:59 pm

Quote from: harrison.t.reed on Jul 09, 2017, 04:26PMAll seriousness aside (See my video again. Very serious business...($19.99)), I actually wouldn't advocate squeaking much beyond hearing that it's possible to play a certain note. Sure everyone is going to do it, even if it's deep in the privacy of their home whether they are told to or not. But squeaking it out with a strained embouchure and lack of air moving through your chops will hurt you in the long run.

One trick I used for a young girl I taught years ago, who just wanted a solid "high Bb", was to hand her my jinbao alto and let her borrow it. During that lesson, she was easily able to play the Bb on the alto. The difference is the air needed to achieve the right resistance to get the note out. She wasn't  pinching or squeaking it out on the alto. It was easy for her to figure out how to get that same feeling on her tenor during the same lesson.

I like the head voice vs chest voice comparison that Ian Bousfield uses in his video on the upper register.

Agreed. However, there is a difference between squeaking and playing softly with finesse.

I'll often train on my smallest bore horn to get the feel of the notes and then try to transfer them over to a larger horn and finally my largest horn. I don't think there is anything wrong with that approach. Conversely, I like to train the lowest notes on my largest horn and transfer them to my smaller horns.

...Geezer
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Advice on Hitting High Notes?

Post by ttf_timothy42b » Sun Jul 09, 2017 6:09 pm

Quote from: harrison.t.reed on Jul 09, 2017, 04:26PMAll seriousness aside (See my video again. Very serious business...($19.99)), I actually wouldn't advocate squeaking much beyond hearing that it's possible to play a certain note.
There are high range tricks that aren't real ways of playing, and I wouldn't want to squeak using them. 

But I think there needn't be a sharp cutoff to your range.  It can be a continuum, from a note you can hammer, to a note you can play soft and controlled, to notes you get softer and softer until they turn into a squeak.  Then a squeal, then a dog whistle.
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Post by ttf_Pre59 » Mon Jul 10, 2017 3:44 am

Is the Chas Collin Flexibilities book not used anymore? It was considered essential back in the '70's, and even though I don't own a copy anymore, exercises or ones very similar are still part of my main practice routine.

It's still a valid way to increase the upper register IMO, and the speed and volume at which they're practiced affects strength and flexibility.

I had a usable high F on a Reynolds bass trombone with a VB 1.5G back then..



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Post by ttf_Geezerhorn » Mon Jul 10, 2017 4:14 am

Quote from: Pre59 on Jul 10, 2017, 03:44AMIs the Chas Collin Flexibilities book not used anymore? It was considered essential back in the '70's, and even though I don't own a copy anymore, exercises or ones very similar are still part of my main practice routine.

It's still a valid way to increase the upper register IMO, and the speed and volume at which they're practiced affects strength and flexibility.

I had a usable high F on a Reynolds bass trombone with a VB 1.5G back then..


Never heard of it.

I like TD's GSMOY for some musical high-range training. I have it written out progressively higher & higher. It's simple to use BiaB to change the key up a 1/2 step when I want to. Using an accompaniment is nice b/c it pushes me to stay on the beat and not be a slacker. But when I can't hit the high notes any more, I finish the song down an octave. Rest. Rinse. Repeat.

...Geezer
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Post by ttf_Pre59 » Mon Jul 10, 2017 7:29 am

Quote from: Geezerhorn on Jul 10, 2017, 04:14AMNever heard of it.

I like TD's GSMOY for some musical high-range training. I have it written out progressively higher & higher. It's simple to use BiaB to change the key up a 1/2 step when I want to. Using an accompaniment is nice b/c it pushes me to stay on the beat and not be a slacker. But when I can't hit the high notes any more, I finish the song down an octave. Rest. Rinse. Repeat.

...Geezer

It's the equivalent to weight training. There's a lot of variables, like speed, note values, distance between tones and volume, so it's not like a slow slog of long climbing notes. I've found a way to make them more musically interesting and relevant to my needs over the years.

Geezer, so you do no lip flex's or trills for upper range?
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Post by ttf_Geezerhorn » Mon Jul 10, 2017 7:47 am

Quote from: Pre59 on Jul 10, 2017, 07:29AMIt's the equivalent to weight training. There's a lot of variables, like speed, note values, distance between tones and volume, so it's not like a slow slog of long climbing notes. I've found a way to make them more musically interesting and relevant to my needs over the years.

Geezer, so you do no lip flex's or trills for upper range?

I do a series of cross-grain scale slurs, using a lot of alternate positions to make as many cross-grain slurs as possible.

...Geezer
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Post by ttf_harrison.t.reed » Mon Jul 10, 2017 8:29 am

Tim, just watched your vid. Hilarious. I gotta try that duct tape on the brace!
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Post by ttf_Geezerhorn » Mon Jul 10, 2017 8:34 am

Quote from: harrison.t.reed on Jul 10, 2017, 08:29AMTim, just watched your vid. Hilarious. I gotta try that duct tape on the brace!

I think his work here is done!

...Geezer
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Post by ttf_ddickerson » Mon Jul 10, 2017 8:48 am

Quote from: Geezerhorn on Jul 10, 2017, 08:34AMI think his work here is done!

...Geezer

What key are you up to in playing IGSOY? It seems I've seen a video of Doug playing it in F, and then some.
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Post by ttf_Geezerhorn » Mon Jul 10, 2017 8:57 am

Quote from: ddickerson on Jul 10, 2017, 08:48AMWhat key are you up to in playing IGSOY? It seems I've seen a video of Doug playing it in F, and then some.

Lol. I'm still stuck on the key of D. It's an endurance thing for me. I start out terrific, but can't quite make it all the way through the whole tune yet. Odd though, I can sometimes do a nice job on Jobim's "Wave" in Eb, hiking the bridge up one octave to make high Eb. But that part is after a substantial rest while the backup group riffs. I know what to do, it's the doing it part that I'm still working on. lol It's coming. I run through those things in the morning and then play my Conn 88H as low as possible in the evening. I push in both directions.

Sometimes a high session off is in order. I did a recording this morning instead of working on high range.

...Geezer
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Post by ttf_ddickerson » Mon Jul 10, 2017 9:03 am

Quote from: Geezerhorn on Jul 10, 2017, 08:57AMLol. I'm still stuck on the key of D. It's an endurance thing for me. I start out terrific, but can't quite make it all the way through the whole tune yet. Odd though, I can sometimes do a nice job on Jobim's "Wave" in Eb, hiking the bridge up one octave to make high Eb. But that part is after a substantial rest while the backup group riffs. I know what to do, it's the doing it part that I'm still working on. lol It's coming. I run through those things in the morning and then play my Conn 88H as low as possible in the evening. I push in both directions.

Sometimes a high session off is in order. I did a recording this morning instead of working on high range.

...Geezer

D is good. Tommy Dorsey's key. Maybe sometime you can sub for him?


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Post by ttf_Geezerhorn » Mon Jul 10, 2017 9:09 am

Quote from: ddickerson on Jul 10, 2017, 09:03AMD is good. Tommy Dorsey's key. Maybe sometime you can sub for him?


Lol. If he was still alive and I did stand in for him during an illness, I would probably get such rave reviews that he would get better real quick! (In my dreams).

You're a player. Any pet tricks and/or concepts you can share with us on pushing your range up?

...Geezer
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Post by ttf_ddickerson » Mon Jul 10, 2017 1:08 pm


Ok - I will weigh in on this what Harrison started. You will immediately see that my low range is in need of repair. LOL!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXuKhdgfk8g


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Post by ttf_timothy42b » Mon Jul 10, 2017 1:12 pm

Dude!  the ceiling fan!  you're supposed to do your vibrato with the slide!


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Post by ttf_BGuttman » Mon Jul 10, 2017 1:35 pm

Quote from: Pre59 on Jul 10, 2017, 03:44AMIs the Chas Collin Flexibilities book not used anymore? It was considered essential back in the '70's, and even though I don't own a copy anymore, exercises or ones very similar are still part of my main practice routine.

It's still a valid way to increase the upper register IMO, and the speed and volume at which they're practiced affects strength and flexibility.

I had a usable high F on a Reynolds bass trombone with a VB 1.5G back then..


I bought it when it was relatively new (and I was in High School).  Brought it to a lesson and my teacher (a trumpet player in the NBC Symphony) told me to shred it because it was garbage.  Apparently Chalie Colin had a reputation back then.  But I didn't shred it -- I still have it.

I got my upper register with variants on the Remington Security in the Upper Register exercise.
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Post by ttf_Geezerhorn » Mon Jul 10, 2017 1:45 pm

Quote from: ddickerson on Jul 10, 2017, 01:08PMOk - I will weigh in on this what Harrison started. You will immediately see that my low range is in need of repair. LOL!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXuKhdgfk8g


Lol! Love it! I think timothy42b started something; the equivalent of an Internet meme - in music.

I wish I could put my version of that musical meme up, but I'm not even in the same galaxy as you guys on high range. I could post a recording here doing what I do, but it wouldn't have a thing to do with the topic at hand, so I won't.

Just so others can be "in" on this - the concept is to alternate playing high with playing low. I don't know the magic behind it. Maybe it has something to do with keeping the chops from getting all in a bunch or perhaps from becoming muscle-bound from too much strenuous work upstairs. That's why I think flexibility exercises are also very important. I've never seen a muscle-bound yoga instructor. Uh-oh. Did I just toss up a softball? lol

...Geezer
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Post by ttf_BillO » Mon Jul 10, 2017 2:52 pm

Quote from: ddickerson on Jul 10, 2017, 01:08PMOk - I will weigh in on this what Harrison started. You will immediately see that my low range is in need of repair. LOL!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXuKhdgfk8g


You sound like a trumpet!
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Post by ttf_harrison.t.reed » Mon Jul 10, 2017 3:02 pm

Dang it Geezer, my video trolled on this thread first! Givin all the credit to Tim...
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Post by ttf_Geezerhorn » Mon Jul 10, 2017 3:15 pm

That's the way it goes around here, man. I didn't write the rules.

Now you have to one-up him on a high-range builder demo and take the cheese.

...Geezer
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Post by ttf_ddickerson » Mon Jul 10, 2017 3:18 pm

Quote from: Geezerhorn on Jul 10, 2017, 03:15PMThat's the way it goes around here, man. I didn't write the rules.

Now you have to one-up him on a high-range builder demo and take the cheese.

...Geezer

Geezer, I don't think that you saw Harrison's video. That's what started this. BTW, Harrison, great job and great video. I can tell that you're probably a great teacher too!


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Post by ttf_Geezerhorn » Mon Jul 10, 2017 3:24 pm

Quote from: ddickerson on Jul 10, 2017, 03:18PMGeezer, I don't think that you saw Harrison's video. That's what started this. BTW, Harrison, great job and great video. I can tell that you're probably a great teacher too!


On THIS thread, yes. But Tim was THE first to do a high-range vid. Maybe he can point to where it had it's world debut.

I agree. Nice job! That's really what we need around here; demos of stuff.

...Geezer
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Post by ttf_ddickerson » Mon Jul 10, 2017 3:32 pm

Quote from: Geezerhorn on Jul 10, 2017, 03:24PMOn THIS thread, yes. But Tim was THE first to do a high-range vid. Maybe he can point to where it had it's world debut.

I agree. Nice job! That's really what we need around here; demos of stuff.

...Geezer

Oh I see what you mean. I was just thinking about this thread. I don't know if we've helped the OP with all this.  Image
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Post by ttf_Geezerhorn » Sat Jul 29, 2017 7:16 am

Quote from: ddickerson on Jul 10, 2017, 08:48AMWhat key are you up to in playing IGSOY? 

I passed a goal. I played through it cleanly in the Key of D. I normally use my King 2B with a Bach 12C mouthpiece, but I passed my goal with a Bach 7C mouthpiece, so that is real progress for me. I have modulated GSOY up to the key of Eb, making high D the top note. I'll stick with the Bach 7C mpc and the King 2B for this next goal.

Lol. Just in case you are thinking that I should use a larger mpc to play higher, that is not the case with me; although it may be for someone else. All a large mpc does for me as far as high range is concerned is to make stamina up there that much more difficult.

GSOY is a great song, but I use it as an etude; modulating it up one half step at a time for range-building. Playing through a chorus of GSOY non-stop is a LOT tougher for me than occasionally picking off a high C# or a high D somewhere in an otherwise not all that high-pitched ballad.

I hope this inspires others to use a similar approach at range-building. There are certainly many approaches and it's probably best to attack it from all angles. This is one angle I attack it from. Harrison has some outstanding angles as well.

...Geezer
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Post by ttf_timothy42b » Sat Jul 29, 2017 7:47 am

Quote from: Geezerhorn on Yesterday at 07:16 AM

I hope this inspires others to use a similar approach at range-building. There are certainly many approaches and it's probably best to attack it from all angles. This is one angle I attack it from. Harrison has some outstanding angles as well.

...Geezer

Good job on IGSOY!  That's progress.

On a similar note, somebody posted Bolero written out in multiple keys, starting on F and raising half steps until a start of D.  I have it in hard copy, maybe I can find the electrons again. 
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Post by ttf_Geezerhorn » Sat Jul 29, 2017 7:55 am

Quote from: timothy42b on Yesterday at 07:47 AMGood job on IGSOY!  That's progress.

On a similar note, somebody posted Bolero written out in multiple keys, starting on F and raising half steps until a start of D.  I have it in hard copy, maybe I can find the electrons again. 

Thanks Tim!

I am already making good progress on GSOY in the key of Eb. It's a feel kinda thing. The more muscular I try to make it, the worse it is. So I work terribly hard every day at re-training myself not to work so hard.  Image

...Geezer
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Post by ttf_timothy42b » Sat Jul 29, 2017 8:17 am

Found this, Bolero in 12 keys:

https://docs.wixstatic.com/ugd/f9c99c_c ... 96c6f3.pdf

It's not the one I'm thinking of but it looks useful. 
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Post by ttf_Geezerhorn » Sat Jul 29, 2017 8:21 am

Nice! Thanks for the share.

A zillion of us should keep that on our hard drive and/or print it out!

...Geezer
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Post by ttf_BillO » Sat Jul 29, 2017 8:59 am

Quote from: timothy42b on Yesterday at 08:17 AMFound this, Bolero in 12 keys:

https://docs.wixstatic.com/ugd/f9c99c_c ... 96c6f3.pdf

It's not the one I'm thinking of but it looks useful. 
Image
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Post by ttf_ddickerson » Sat Jul 29, 2017 1:17 pm

Quote from: Geezerhorn on Yesterday at 07:16 AMI passed a goal. I played through it cleanly in the Key of D. I normally use my King 2B with a Bach 12C mouthpiece, but I passed my goal with a Bach 7C mouthpiece, so that is real progress for me. I have modulated GSOY up to the key of Eb, making high D the top note. I'll stick with the Bach 7C mpc and the King 2B for this next goal.

Lol. Just in case you are thinking that I should use a larger mpc to play higher, that is not the case with me; although it may be for someone else. All a large mpc does for me as far as high range is concerned is to make stamina up there that much more difficult.

GSOY is a great song, but I use it as an etude; modulating it up one half step at a time for range-building. Playing through a chorus of GSOY non-stop is a LOT tougher for me than occasionally picking off a high C# or a high D somewhere in an otherwise not all that high-pitched ballad.

I hope this inspires others to use a similar approach at range-building. There are certainly many approaches and it's probably best to attack it from all angles. This is one angle I attack it from. Harrison has some outstanding angles as well.

...Geezer

Great! That was the key that TD recorded it in. I've heard stories that at the beginning of the show, he would play it in D, but at the close of the show, he played it in Bb. I wasn't around back then so can't say from first hand experience. Image


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Post by ttf_Geezerhorn » Sat Nov 11, 2017 5:43 am

Quote from: ddickerson on Jul 29, 2017, 01:17PMGreat! That was the key that TD recorded it in. I've heard stories that at the beginning of the show, he would play it in D, but at the close of the show, he played it in Bb. I wasn't around back then so can't say from first hand experience. Image


I just played all the way through IGSOY this morning in the key of Eb. Progress.

After three days of hard high range training, I think it's time to rest that aspect and concentrate on the technique of making as nice a sound as possible much lower on the horn.

Flush with a little new-found success on hitting some modestly high notes, what advice can I give? Strength is important, but it all goes out the window without correct technique. Bruce Lee might say, "It's the art of playing high without playing high". And for that, one-on-one instruction is needed. For most of us, there just aren't any short-cuts.

...Geezer
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Post by ttf_ddickerson » Sat Nov 11, 2017 7:38 am

Quote from: Geezerhorn on Nov 11, 2017, 05:43AMI just played all the way through IGSOY this morning in the key of Eb. Progress.

After three days of hard high range training, I think it's time to rest that aspect and concentrate on the technique of making as nice a sound as possible much lower on the horn.

Flush with a little new-found success on hitting some modestly high notes, what advice can I give? Strength is important, but it all goes out the window without correct technique. Bruce Lee might say, "It's the art of playing high without playing high". And for that, one-on-one instruction is needed. For most of us, there just aren't any short-cuts.

...Geezer

Great Job! I think my biggest challenge sometimes is my tongue(articulations) get in the way in the upper register. LOL!
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Post by ttf_Geezerhorn » Sat Nov 11, 2017 8:00 am

Quote from: ddickerson on Nov 11, 2017, 07:38AMGreat Job! I think my biggest challenge sometimes is my tongue(articulations) get in the way in the upper register. LOL!

Ha! That's what slurring is for!  Image

I played through it in Eb after playing through it well in D. I'll continue in Eb a few months before trying it in E. So, hopefully this post isn't dead yet and hopefully for us it never will be!  Image

...Geezer
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Post by ttf_Geezerhorn » Sat Nov 11, 2017 8:00 am

Quote from: ddickerson on Nov 11, 2017, 07:38AMGreat Job! I think my biggest challenge sometimes is my tongue(articulations) get in the way in the upper register. LOL!

Ha! That's what slurring is for!  Image

I played through it in Eb after playing through it well in D. I'll continue in Eb a few months before trying it in E. So, hopefully this post isn't dead yet and hopefully for us it never will be!  Image

...Geezer
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