Million Dollar Idea - Automatic Transposition

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thatme
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Million Dollar Idea - Automatic Transposition

Post by thatme » Mon Jun 24, 2019 3:05 pm

I have a piece in tenor clef that I need to play. I don’t read tenor clef so I need to convert it to bass clef (I play bass trombone, not tenor trombone :good: ). Are there any apps or programs that would do this automatically? It doesn’t seem like there is but I thought I’d ask. If not, someone should invent one. With machine learning and AI this would be pretty straightforward methinks.
hyperbolica
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Re: Million Dollar Idea - Automatic Transposition

Post by hyperbolica » Mon Jun 24, 2019 3:07 pm

Yeah, any annotation program like Finale, or even Musescore.

Still, you ought to learn how to read tenor. It's not hard, and if you can't do it, you will be limiting your options in the future.
thatme
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Re: Million Dollar Idea - Automatic Transposition

Post by thatme » Mon Jun 24, 2019 3:29 pm

Thanks, I’ll give it a try (I figured there was a way - I’m still surprised there’s not a simple app for this). And yes, I should learn tenor clef.
harrisonreed
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Re: Million Dollar Idea - Automatic Transposition

Post by harrisonreed » Mon Jun 24, 2019 4:36 pm

"Thou shalt not make a machine in the likeness of a human mind."

- Frank Herbert

How would that app work, actually? Augmented reality? That seems really ... not all that simple.
thatme
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Re: Million Dollar Idea - Automatic Transposition

Post by thatme » Mon Jun 24, 2019 5:08 pm

I’m not tech savvy enough to do it certainly, but it just seems to me that we have easily available tech that can convert images into text and then text can be converted into easily editable text (all in Adobe/Word), so I would imagine that doing that to music text would not be an inordinate challenge. But who knows...
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Re: Million Dollar Idea - Automatic Transposition

Post by hyperbolica » Mon Jun 24, 2019 5:33 pm

There is software that will scan or take a pdf and do optical recognition to convert into music xml or put notes on a staff. Optical recognition is the hurdle. It works, but it's not very reliable. The source has to be simple and very clean. You get all sorts of wierdness from the various notations.

Changing clefs is trivial, digitizing printed music is not.
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Matt K
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Re: Million Dollar Idea - Automatic Transposition

Post by Matt K » Mon Jun 24, 2019 5:48 pm

If its a manuscript made in Finale or Sibelius, Photoscore is pretty good. I've heard that Musitek also works well. Looks like there's an open source application as well in the form of https://github.com/Audiveris/audiveris.

From there, converting to bass clef as others have pointed out, is rather trivial. My experience with these as of about 5 years ago is that they take a lot of time to get right after they're scanned. E.g. the slurs are invariably off, notes are sometimes misinterpreted, lengths not so good. But it's probably came a long way in 5 years.
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Re: Million Dollar Idea - Automatic Transposition

Post by harrisonreed » Tue Jun 25, 2019 2:19 am

Photoscore tech is different from instant transposition via augmented reality. And the traditional "scan it and send it to Sibelius" still blows. It's maybe 60% accurate for basic piano scores ... So it saves you very little time.

Time better spent on just learning your clefs. Be careful about using the bass trombone as an excuse for anything. The whole "I'm a bass trombone player so ..." Usually works as an excuse for not being able to play technical or high tessitura pieces as well! Everyone knows this one well!
thatme
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Re: Million Dollar Idea - Automatic Transposition

Post by thatme » Tue Jun 25, 2019 10:08 am

Having come to the conclusion that there is no simple way to do what I want - I tried the Musescore solution posted earlier and the PDF to Musescore conversion was terrible (I didn't even get to the part where I would try to convert the clefs...). That being said, I'm always up for learning something new. I need to play this part tomorrow night so I don't have long to figure this out. Based on my reading, what I need to do is simply move the note written in tenor clef up two lines or spaces. Flats/sharps stay the same, accidentals stay the same.

For example, the first note in the piece--if it were written in bass clef--appears to be a C (second space in the staff). That note is actually a G in tenor clef, but the way it will be played is as a G (top space in the staff on bass clef).

Am I thinking about this correct, or is this all wrong? If I've got this right I'll try to write it out before tomorrow but then keep practicing at it.
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Geordie
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Re: Million Dollar Idea - Automatic Transposition

Post by Geordie » Tue Jun 25, 2019 10:50 am

Not quite. Assuming you are using a B flat trombone You’d play that C in bass clef as a D if written in treble clef, just below the staff. Take everything up nine full tones.
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Matt K
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Re: Million Dollar Idea - Automatic Transposition

Post by Matt K » Tue Jun 25, 2019 11:29 am

Easiest way for me has always been to think of it as a fifth higher. So a written middle line (D in bass clef) is an A in tenor clef. You can use that to practice too by adjusting the sharps by removing one flat or adding one sharp depending on the key and playing bass clef parts. I love tenor clef stuff, I'd use it 100% if presented with both options unless it has a lot of F attachment work
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Re: Million Dollar Idea - Automatic Transposition

Post by timothy42b » Tue Jun 25, 2019 11:34 am

thatme wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 10:08 am
Based on my reading, what I need to do is simply move the note written in tenor clef up two lines or spaces. Flats/sharps stay the same, accidentals stay the same.
I've done a fair amount of moving clefs or key signatures for people, but I use Noteworthy rather than Musescore. There are some long threads about it.

There are many mental approaches to what you want to do. Here is what I recommend: The 4th line (from the bottom) is middle C. (The clef sign always points to middle C, whether it is tenor, alto, or mezzo soprano) On each stave, pencil in C there, E the top line, A the line below, F the line below that, D the bottom line. Then stave by stave start writing it out in bass clef. If you don't already know a notation program well just use a pencil. As you finish a line test it.

By the time you finish a page you will probably have taught yourself to read tenor.
thatme
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Re: Million Dollar Idea - Automatic Transposition

Post by thatme » Tue Jun 25, 2019 12:04 pm

I appreciate everyone’s feedback. I’m clearly an idiot (hence my desire for an app to solve this problem) when it comes to this. I’ve written out the top line and linked to a pic below - is this correct? I think it’s not but clearly I’m not grasping something. I followed the middle C suggestion above.

Https://imgur.com/Kdioo1K
Jnoxon
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Re: Million Dollar Idea - Automatic Transposition

Post by Jnoxon » Tue Jun 25, 2019 1:59 pm

Can you read a Bb Trumpet part? Tenor clef is the same as that. Read treble clef down one step. So A written "C" you play a "Bb", you see a written "E" you play a "D" etc....
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thatme
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Re: Million Dollar Idea - Automatic Transposition

Post by thatme » Tue Jun 25, 2019 2:15 pm

Jnoxon wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 1:59 pm
Can you read a Bb Trumpet part? Tenor clef is the same as that. Read treble clef down one step. So A written "C" you play a "Bb", you see a written "E" you play a "D" etc....
No, can’t read treble clef (at least not competently).
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BGuttman
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Re: Million Dollar Idea - Automatic Transposition

Post by BGuttman » Tue Jun 25, 2019 4:03 pm

What you posted appears to be correct. Keep at it.

Also keep at learning tenor and alto clef. Both are necessary for symphonic trombone. And alto clef is used in some Russian music for the bass trombone part!

If you want to read Horn in F parts you need to learn Mezzo-Soprano clef, where the C is on the second line up from the bottom.

When I was a kid I was taught to use the 7 common clefs as a way to transpose. Treble Clef, Bass Clef, and 5 "C" clefs (Soprano, Mezzo-Soprano, Alto, Tenor, Baritone). Note that Baritone clef is also with the F symbol on the middle line of the staff. I found it to be easier than "displacement" transposition (e.g. down a 3rd, up a 4th, etc.).
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thatme
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Re: Million Dollar Idea - Automatic Transposition

Post by thatme » Wed Jun 26, 2019 6:20 am

Thanks for the confirmation, Bruce!
harrisonreed
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Re: Million Dollar Idea - Automatic Transposition

Post by harrisonreed » Wed Jun 26, 2019 4:57 pm

Geordie wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 10:50 am
Not quite. Assuming you are using a B flat trombone You’d play that C in bass clef as a D if written in treble clef, just below the staff. Take everything up nine full tones.
Who is talking about concert treble clef here? Also, when has a C in bass clef ever been read as a D in concert treble? Whuh??

A bass clef C line (or space!!) is indeed a G in tenor clef.
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Geordie
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Re: Million Dollar Idea - Automatic Transposition

Post by Geordie » Thu Jun 27, 2019 2:00 am

I mistakenly thought the original post was about moving to treble clef. My error.
As someone who first played brass band treble clef trombone, my default mind set despite reading other clefs, I often think of the note below the bottom line of the treble clef stave as D. People brought up on bass clef stave see it differently.
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