Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

ttf_GetzenBassPlayer · Fri Sep 05, 2008 9:13 pm

Your previous post seemed to ask the question why don't all players play on a 1-1/2

QuoteIn "the hole mix", like Denis say, there is more than I can understand, but why did all go bigger but not GR? And why don't more of all the orchestra players today go back to this size? But there are many more of them that already do play this size than we know.
QuoteBut I still think George Roberts have something special. And after trying all mouthpieces in the world I know there is a special effect from the 1 1/2g size. Thats what it all is about GetzenBassPlayer. I admit I don't understand all of it but I know this effect. I don't know why it is so. But can listen it in my own playing.

Certainly GR has amazing sound. I believe the sound in his head brought him to the mp that he played. I don't believe he decided he wanted a 1-1/2g sound so that's the piece he ordered. The sound a player is looking for will guide them to the correct equipment.

QuoteSo, the lesson is : mpc for which kind of player? Coz practice, instruction, kind of music played, all that matter in the mix...
Very true.

ttf_Burgerbob · Post by **ttf_Burgerbob** » Fri Sep 05, 2008 10:08 pm

I use one now, a Benge, and it feels great. Great up high, and just fine down low. Still don't think it would have worked on the old King, though. I think I'll stick with this for a long time.

ttf_Fuzzy · Post by **ttf_Fuzzy** » Fri Sep 05, 2008 11:23 pm

Holy crap, played a Yeo mouthpiece today.

It was like blowing into a trash can, my high range literally disappeared. My low range had this massive magnificent quality to it but absoloutely no sizzle and crack no matter how hard I pushed the horn.

Great mouthpiece but definitely not my kind of thing, just too big and dark. I could flatten an orchestra with it.

I hopped back onto my 1.5G and it was a delight to be back in that little manageable versatile thing.

ttf_MoominDave · Post by **ttf_MoominDave** » Sat Sep 06, 2008 12:56 am

The big mouthpieces require a slightly different technique - not so open with the lip aperture. Your high range would come back if you practised on the Yeo like this.

ttf_svenlarsson · Post by **ttf_svenlarsson** » Sat Sep 06, 2008 2:58 am

That is right. Some players with well developed embouchure's can play high and low on very big mouthpieces.
Charlie Vernon and Bob Sanders are two guys showing us that big mouthpieces can sound beautiful on all ranges.
For them!
Don't go after what the great players are playing, find what suites you.

ttf_cozzagiorgi · Post by **ttf_cozzagiorgi** » Sat Sep 06, 2008 3:01 am

Yesterday I changed from my Schilke 58 back to my Schilke 59, on the 58 I sounded to much tenor like.

I thoght it won't make a big difference but... oufff. I spent more than 5 hours with the instrument since and I still have trouble to adapt. Incredible what difference make some mm.

ttf_lingon · Post by **ttf_lingon** » Sat Sep 06, 2008 8:34 am

Quote from: svenlarsson on Sep 06, 2008, 02:58AM...Don't go after what the great players are playing, find what suites you...
And the instrument. Or, maybe find out what suits the instrument and then try to adapt to that?!

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Sat Sep 06, 2008 6:00 pm

George Roberts,Edwin Anderson,Paul Faulise,Dave Taylor(Along with His Holton)and many,many others,who played the Bass Trombone as well as it will EVER be played,did it on a 1&1/2 G. The big gear is fine,but it doesn't change the reality of the previous sentence....

ttf_Fuzzy · Post by **ttf_Fuzzy** » Sat Sep 06, 2008 7:46 pm

Quote from: Donward59 on Sep 06, 2008, 06:00PM George Roberts,Edwin Anderson,Paul Faulise,Dave Taylor(Along with His Holton)and many,many others,who played the Bass Trombone as well as it will EVER be played,did it on a 1&1/2 G. The big gear is fine,but it doesn't change the reality of the previous sentence....

Amen to that, Mr Bass trombone is still hacking out a monstorous sound at his age on a single valve and his slightly oversized 1 1/2 G. I am for this sound so I stick to the same kinda stuff.

ttf_JohnL · Post by **ttf_JohnL** » Sun Sep 07, 2008 9:22 am

Quote from: svenlarsson on Sep 06, 2008, 02:58AMThat is right. Some players with well developed embouchure's can play high and low on very big mouthpieces.
Charlie Vernon and Bob Sanders are two guys showing us that big mouthpieces can sound beautiful on all ranges.It's that sounding beautiful that's really tough. I can play high on my Benge with a 60D, but you wouldn't want to be in earshot when I did it.

ttf_GetzenBassPlayer · Sun Sep 07, 2008 11:01 am

I have a recording of Doug Yeo playing the John Williams Tuba Concerto with the BSO and he sounds great. His sound reminds me a little of Donald Knaub, in that there it is tenor like in sound in the upper register and solid and projecting in the lower register. To me, he seems to have found a piece that gives him good balance in all registers.

ttf_svenlarsson · Post by **ttf_svenlarsson** » Sun Sep 07, 2008 11:54 am

Quote from: Fuzzy on Sep 06, 2008, 07:46PMAmen to that, Mr Bass trombone is still hacking out a monstorous sound at his age on a single valve and his slightly oversized 1 1/2 G. I am for this sound so I stick to the same kinda stuff.
Stick to the mouthpiec that you get the best sound out of your horn with.

ttf_The Bone Ranger · Post by **ttf_The Bone Ranger** » Sun Sep 07, 2008 4:39 pm

Quote from: GetzenBassPlayer on Sep 07, 2008, 11:01AMI have a recording of Doug Yeo playing the John Williams Tuba Concerto with the BSO and he sounds great. His sound reminds me a little of Donald Knaub, in that there it is tenor like in sound in the upper register and solid and projecting in the lower register. To me, he seems to have found a piece that gives him good balance in all registers.

Doug has always been a strong model of sound for me for that very reason. In Doug, I hear a lot of purity in his sound, it's all core and projection in every range, something I hear in Donald Knaub's recordings, also. I can't make Doug's mouthpiece sound like that, but again, it shows what well suited equipment, plus hard work, can bring. It's worth remembering that, essentially, Mr Yeo is playing a mouthpiece custom made for him. That it works for others is a bonus....

Andrew

ttf_savio · Post by **ttf_savio** » Mon Sep 08, 2008 2:41 am

All this trombonist mentioned here are great players with beautiful sound. They serve as a role model for many of us. There are also many players we not hear so much about with great sound. We cant discuss which is best, they are just different. (Like mouthpieces)

Some of the trombone players Donward59 mentioned are also role models and have been it for many of the trombonists GetzenPlayer and you all have mentioned. Like Charles Vernon, Doug Yeo...many more.

What I think is not so good is that this old role models will be forgotten. I can only speak for my self when it comes to sound George Roberts is something special for me. And his 1 1/2g is a part of it. Do I say we have to change? No way, but it would be nice for all the new players to listen all this old guys. And that a 1 1/2g is a part of making their sound.

Is their (GR and the rest....)sound the best. No...but it makes the hole picture of bass trombone sound more complete.

I cant say anything about what role model or what mouthpiece, but hope we don't forget the old ones as role models. (I just know one thing stay with one don't change, Chris finally got that into my slow head)

So as role models I want them to be a part of the hole picture. And I really think we should think twice before going to big. There is a special sound from a 1 1/2g size and don't let this knowledge go away. Its a healthy part of the bass trombone world.

Choice? Role models? Mouthpieces? Glad there is many of them. We all can find our way to make music

Leif

ttf_Cul · Post by **ttf_Cul** » Thu Sep 11, 2008 2:45 am

I have played a 1 1/2G continously for at least 5 years and found it to be a great mouthpiece. But sadly, I have pushed it aside for a brand new Schilke 59. I never thought that there was anything better, but sorry... the schilke runs rings around the Bach. I'm never looking back

ttf_savio · Post by **ttf_savio** » Sat Oct 04, 2008 3:20 pm

http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=d79b8206360f2c08d2db6fb9a8902bda

I did a trumpet tune on my bass trombone with my George Roberts mouthpiece. Very very ppp. After playing it some time I love this little mouthpiece. Its obvious a Bach clone but its a little smaller than my Bach 1 1/2g. But still better in the low register. Figure that out? I also want to say to all that playing a bigger mouthpiece is not wrong. If I have given that impression its not me.
I don't think thats the mission of this tread? The mission is maybe that a Bach 1 1/2g size is not a bad choice even if it is 60 years since it was made. The truth is to learn how to play the mouthpiece you have.

Leif

ttf_blast · Post by **ttf_blast** » Sat Oct 04, 2008 3:45 pm

Quote from: savio on Oct 04, 2008, 03:20PM http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=d79b8206360f2c08d2db6fb9a8902bda

I did a trumpet tune on my bass trombone with my George Roberts mouthpiece. Very very ppp. After playing it some time I love this little mouthpiece. Its obvious a Bach clone but its a little smaller than my Bach 1 1/2g. But still better in the low register. Figure that out? I also want to say to all that playing a bigger mouthpiece is not wrong. If I have given that impression its not me.
I don't think thats the mission of this tread? The mission is maybe that a Bach 1 1/2g size is not a bad choice even if it is 60 years since it was made. The truth is to learn how to play the mouthpiece you have.

Leif

That's just it Savio.... learn to play the mouthpiece you have.... and learn what REALLY suits you, physically AND musically when choosing that mouthpiece. The biggest problem is usually with the soft machine, not the hard stuff.

Chris Stearn

P.S. you can spot my earlier posts because the name ends with a period.... later posts do not... though the odd one turns up with a period from time to time.

ttf_savio · Post by **ttf_savio** » Sat Oct 04, 2008 5:07 pm

Your posts is always something learning Chris. Whit or whitout a period.

Cheers

Savio

ttf_HeRoze · Post by **ttf_HeRoze** » Sat Oct 04, 2008 5:08 pm

(There were 666 replies... had to bump it)

Savio beat me to it

ttf_Burgerbob · Post by **ttf_Burgerbob** » Sat Oct 04, 2008 7:32 pm

I ordered a G&W Mark 1 last night. I can't wait!

I am seriously in love with my new Holton and the 1.5 size. I am also in love with stainless steel, so I decided to combine the two (or three?).

ttf_BassBoneFL · Post by **ttf_BassBoneFL** » Sat Oct 04, 2008 10:46 pm

All these players turning to Holtons and 1 1/2Gs. Look at all the trouble you've caused, Chris !!

...

ttf_savio · Post by **ttf_savio** » Sun Oct 05, 2008 1:21 am

Quote from: BassBoneFL on Oct 04, 2008, 10:46PMAll these players turning to Holtons and 1 1/2Gs. Look at all the trouble you've caused, Chris !!

...

Yeah, maybe Harold is next

Make a record and listen the sound......

Just kidding......wish I had an old Holton...or a new like Burgerbob

Leif

ttf_blast · Post by **ttf_blast** » Sun Oct 05, 2008 1:59 am

Quote from: Burgerbob on Oct 04, 2008, 07:32PMI ordered a G&W Mark 1 last night. I can't wait!

I am seriously in love with my new Holton and the 1.5 size. I am also in love with stainless steel, so I decided to combine the two (or three?).

I have my concerns over the G&W Mk1... for me the stainless in that size sounds a little harsh. It's quite a V cup... I wonder if more of a bowl might help. I can't get the sound I want out of one, but I have heard great results from others. I will be interested to hear how you find it.

Chris Stearn.

ttf_blast · Post by **ttf_blast** » Sun Oct 05, 2008 2:08 am

Quote from: BassBoneFL on Oct 04, 2008, 10:46PMAll these players turning to Holtons and 1 1/2Gs. Look at all the trouble you've caused, Chris !!

...

I just love causing trouble

. I recently got a 1962 Holton 169 that is so little used that it still needs blowing in !!!!!!! Bliss.

I modified post 666 so that it looks appropriate

Two days ago I tried the mouthpiece that a new student has... stock Bach 1 1/2G, small letters, no period... it was STUNNING, one of the best 1 1/2Gs I have ever blown... better than most M.V.s.. just shows that there are some real gems out there, and you don't have to pay silly money... just try a lot of examples.

Chris Stearn

ttf_boneagain · Post by **ttf_boneagain** » Sun Oct 05, 2008 8:14 am

Yup. Chris is a heck of a trouble maker

When I grow up I want to be just like him

A friend of mine just got his first teacher's Holton 169. He's looking for the Kleinhammer attachment. He's been playing a King 8b with a pretty big MP. Even with that MP he's ready to stick with the Holton if he can find a better way than the E pull to handle low B's.

He let me try that Holton a couple times. What a wonderful sound with a Rath B1 1/2W

His teacher really pampered that horn. The leather strap doesn't even have hand-oil coloration! Can't think of any leather in Virginia that can claim that after 40 years of actual use!

So, now for emulating Chris: I'm going to start by getting him to really try a Faxx 1 1/2G. Once he gets hooked (and with that horn, I'm SURE he'll get hooked!) I'll move along. Or maybe not.

The guy plays great on his King, but I LOVE having my ear next to his Holton bell in bone choir. Right now he's lipping the low B's and leaves me whining about playing them with a second valve in flat E.... because he sounds better than I do on them!

If I can just get him to try the "right mind mouthpiece"

ttf_savio · Post by **ttf_savio** » Sun Oct 05, 2008 11:16 am

My teacher did have and still have an old Holton. I still have his sound in my ears after so many years. The best bass trombone sound I have ever heard. With a Denis Wick 2AL. I did play a Schilke 59 then and could not understand why he had a more fat sound than me.
I understand it more today. I should have listen more carefully to what he told me. But of course its not only equipment, he was and is a fantastic player.

Leif

ttf_savio · Post by **ttf_savio** » Sun Oct 05, 2008 11:24 am

By the way, I have one Bach 1 1/2g without a period Chris like your student. Did like it very much. Don't get me into more trouble.........

Leif

ttf_Burgerbob · Post by **ttf_Burgerbob** » Fri Oct 10, 2008 4:31 pm

I'm not sure my Holton would count as new...

I got my Mark 1 in recently. It is a little larger, with a bit more rounded rim than my Benge 1.5G. Apart from that, it is AMAZING. I thought the larger size would mess me up, like in the past, but it is negligible, and may have helped, actually. The low range OPENED up, much more so than with a 1.25G or larger, and it is easier to play- I can now get a good pedal C, without superhuman effort. Articulations, even though the rim is softer than previous, are easier and better. One thing that I can say is that every aspect of my playing that I can quantify has improved in some way, instead of just a couple. The deciding factor, though, is the sound. I used the piece for an orchestra concert, last night, in fact. A sustained fortissimo D in the staff was easy, and sounded like a bass trombone, not anything else. This piece is around to stay.

ttf_blast · Post by **ttf_blast** » Fri Oct 10, 2008 5:20 pm

Quote from: Burgerbob on Oct 10, 2008, 04:31PMI'm not sure my Holton would count as new...

I got my Mark 1 in recently. It is a little larger, with a bit more rounded rim than my Benge 1.5G. Apart from that, it is AMAZING. I thought the larger size would mess me up, like in the past, but it is negligible, and may have helped, actually. The low range OPENED up, much more so than with a 1.25G or larger, and it is easier to play- I can now get a good pedal C, without superhuman effort. Articulations, even though the rim is softer than previous, are easier and better. One thing that I can say is that every aspect of my playing that I can quantify has improved in some way, instead of just a couple. The deciding factor, though, is the sound. I used the piece for an orchestra concert, last night, in fact. A sustained fortissimo D in the staff was easy, and sounded like a bass trombone, not anything else. This piece is around to stay.

I'm glad that it works for you. The stainless thing is very interesting... very different from brass. See how it goes.

Chris Stearn.

ttf_CRWV · Post by **ttf_CRWV** » Fri Oct 10, 2008 11:02 pm

Dammit...just when I convince myself I don't want a new mouthpiece I read a post like that one...

ttf_Burgerbob · Post by **ttf_Burgerbob** » Sat Oct 11, 2008 12:26 am

My G&W check is on the way.

ttf_blast · Post by **ttf_blast** » Sat Oct 11, 2008 1:34 am

Quote from: CRWV on Oct 10, 2008, 11:02PMDammit...just when I convince myself I don't want a new mouthpiece I read a post like that one...

The mark 1 will work for some people, and those who have yet to find a mouthpiece that they are satisfied with could well try one, but if you are satisfied with your present mouthpiece, there is no strong reason to try ANY other mouthpiece. More than any other piece of equipment, our expectations of mouthpieces are so often unrealistic.
I have a mark 1 in my collection... but not in my trombone.

Chris Stearn.

ttf_boneagain · Post by **ttf_boneagain** » Sat Oct 11, 2008 6:27 am

Quote from: blast on Oct 11, 2008, 01:34AM
The mark 1 will work for some people, and those who have yet to find a mouthpiece that they are satisfied with could well try one, but if you are satisfied with your present mouthpiece, there is no strong reason to try ANY other mouthpiece. More than any other piece of equipment, our expectations of mouthpieces are so often unrealistic.
I have a mark 1 in my collection... but not in my trombone.

Chris Stearn.

Geez I hate to disagree with you. But I'm gonna anyway.

Thanks to Chris I have found a 1 1/2G family MP I'm sticking with. But if I were at the other end of my career I WOULD try one or two stainless members of that family. Over the years I have had more than one mouthpiece get pretty unplayable, in spite of my best efforts at protecting them. I'm not talking about dings and dents. Preventing those is part of my best efforts. I'm talking about salt air (while on sea duty,) corrosive perspiration, sliding into and out of mouthpiece "protectors" and the like.

I am 100% with Chris that, if you have a mouthpiece that works for you, you are more likely to get a good return on your time and money by practicing and taking lessons than chasing the elusive "perfect" mouhthpiece.

But once life takes its toll on the mouthpiece that has been working you are pretty much FORCED into either a search or reconditioning effort. As you can read on other threads, plating DOES have a dimension, and preparation for plating CAN change dimesions, so reconditioning might not result in quite the same mouthpiece you started with.

If I were, as I said, at the start of this adventure I would try stainless mouthpieces. Of all the options I've seen, those have the highest likelihood of staying the same until it no longer makes a difference to the original owner.

Of course you have to keep in mind, this thread is full of references to Mount Vernon issues of the 1 1/2G. So how much real value would more durable material really bring? The answer lies in the variability of mouthpieces. If you get a plated mouthpiece that was perfectly prepared and then perfectly plated it can stay fully usable for many decades. On the other hand, I had one I got in the early 1970's that lost most of the plating inside the cup within the first four months. I have a late '70's 1G that I played in the Amazon and all over Brasil. It tarnishes more slowly than the Bach 1 1/2G I got last year. The plating is gone off the outside of the shank (no surprise there) but the rim is still very playable. Who knows how long the new one will last.

Really, I'm not disagreeing at all with Chris. If you have a mouthpiece with which you can do what you need/want to do, engaging in a mouthpiece-quest might just take you in the opposite direction of where you want to go. EVERY mouthpiece is a set of compromises. Every compromise you resolve in the mouthpiece becomes a compromise you have to resolve somewhere else. Even the compromise of durable material has its price. Stainless steel is not likely to play the same as plated brass. There are even speculations that NEW brass doesn't play the same as OLD brass. But brass is the material with which our community has the most experience. If you go for stainless you compromise by having to learn where the playing differences are and how to address them. These are subtle differences, which means it takes even more time to reveal and address them. And that time COULD have been spent practicing making music instead of practicing making sound.

.... now if the stainless just didn't cost so much to manufacture....

ttf_blast · Post by **ttf_blast** » Sat Oct 11, 2008 7:51 am

Dave... I take your point. I love the idea of a more robust, un-plated mouthpiece. For me (and I stress, for me) the smaller stainless mouthpiece does not get near my sound concept. The funny thing is, in stainless I find the Chinook makes a great sound... a sort of 1 1/2G sound out of a very big mouthpiece... that's just the way that metal and those designs work for me. In a blind test of top mouthpieces (not my idea, and I won't print an order of merit), a friend of mine chose the MV 1 1/2G and the Chinook as sounding best out of about a dozen.

Chris Stearn.

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Sat Oct 11, 2008 5:59 pm

I know this thread is about Bach 1&1/2 G's. I'd like to say that even though I play a !&1/2 G,I've done some fooling around with other brands who've promised to improve on the design. From my totally subjective viewpoint,some have come close-very close. But at some point a certain doubt begins to set in(or the honeymoon comes to an end),I plug in the 1&1/2-reality sets in. There's a certain weight to the sound. The other "new" mouthpiece seems so much easier to play,but lacks a certain character. Everything is expected to be easy these days. Why would anyone want to play a mouthpiece that's not perfect from top to bottom? If I could find one that has the sound of a good Bach 1&1/2G-I'll shell out what ever it costs. But for now,I'll stay with what I've got-

ttf_savio · Post by **ttf_savio** » Thu Oct 16, 2008 10:57 pm

Quote from: Donward59 on Oct 11, 2008, 05:59PM I know this thread is about Bach 1&1/2 G's. I'd like to say that even though I play a !&1/2 G,I've done some fooling around with other brands who've promised to improve on the design. From my totally subjective viewpoint,some have come close-very close. But at some point a certain doubt begins to set in(or the honeymoon comes to an end),I plug in the 1&1/2-reality sets in. There's a certain weight to the sound. The other "new" mouthpiece seems so much easier to play,but lacks a certain character. Everything is expected to be easy these days. Why would anyone want to play a mouthpiece that's not perfect from top to bottom? If I could find one that has the sound of a good Bach 1&1/2G-I'll shell out what ever it costs. But for now,I'll stay with what I've got-

Agree so much.......the original (Bach) is often the best...

Leif

ttf_svenlarsson · Post by **ttf_svenlarsson** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 3:22 am

I have (still) three Bach 1 ½ G pieces. The rest (many) are gone to students.
I say some Bach 1 ½ G is good pieces, due to the inconsistency of manufacturing many are just bad. Because they are not following the original design. That is the Bach problem.
Apart from that, a good mouthpiece is fitting the trombone, player and what music there is to be played.
Some pieces are fantastic in the kitchen but do not work in the band/orchestra/studio/concert hall.
Some pieces are good on the x1 horn and not so good on x2.
Some pieces are splendid for mrX1 and sad for mrX2.
Actually, it just a mouthpiece, if you want to make some magic mumbo-jumbo of it, go ahead,
If you believe you have the best mouthpiece there is, you are going too play the best. Dont buy a new mouthpiece if you are satisfied with what you have.
A new mouthpiece will not salve all playing problems.

One thing though. You are the one playing the piece. Not George Roberts.
(Besides, G.R. did not play 1 ½ G the whole of his carrier. Neither does David Taylor)

I dont play Bach 1 ½ G because I do find lots of better pieces for me this days.
The size is good if it fits your playing/horn and needs.
Players using the 1 ½ G size sounding good are probably in their right mind.
Players using the 1 ½ G size sounding bad should maybe consider another piece.

Just to disturb the magic in the discussion a little.

ttf_MoominDave · Post by **ttf_MoominDave** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 3:33 am

Quote from: Donward59 on Oct 11, 2008, 05:59PM I know this thread is about Bach 1&1/2 G's. I'd like to say that even though I play a !&1/2 G,I've done some fooling around with other brands who've promised to improve on the design. From my totally subjective viewpoint,some have come close-very close. But at some point a certain doubt begins to set in(or the honeymoon comes to an end),I plug in the 1&1/2-reality sets in. There's a certain weight to the sound. The other "new" mouthpiece seems so much easier to play,but lacks a certain character. Everything is expected to be easy these days. Why would anyone want to play a mouthpiece that's not perfect from top to bottom? If I could find one that has the sound of a good Bach 1&1/2G-I'll shell out what ever it costs. But for now,I'll stay with what I've got-

But how much of this is because a "good" sound has come by their ubiquity to be defined as the sound associated with using Bach mouthpiece designs?

Make a 1-1/2G-alike that is easier on the face - you lose that "certain weight" that comes exactly from a good Bach 1-1/2G... Make a 1-1/2G-alike that is harder on the face - you lose that "certain weight" the other way... People are tuned into the Bach 1-1/2G sound as a reference - if we'd all historically played Wick 1ALs, say, we'd all be saying: "These Bach 1-1/2Gs, they're a good variation on the design, yes, but they don't quite reproduce that Wick sound.".

ttf_blast · Post by **ttf_blast** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 3:47 am

Quote from: svenlarsson on Oct 28, 2008, 03:22AMI have (still) three Bach 1 ½ G pieces. The rest (many) are gone to students.
I say some Bach 1 ½ G is good pieces, due to the inconsistency of manufacturing many are just bad. Because they are not following the original design. That is the Bach problem.
Apart from that, a good mouthpiece is fitting the trombone, player and what music there is to be played.
Some pieces are fantastic in the kitchen but do not work in the band/orchestra/studio/concert hall.
Some pieces are good on the x1 horn and not so good on x2.
Some pieces are splendid for mrX1 and sad for mrX2.
Actually, it just a mouthpiece, if you want to make some magic mumbo-jumbo of it, go ahead,
If you believe you have the best mouthpiece there is, you are going too play the best. Dont buy a new mouthpiece if you are satisfied with what you have.
A new mouthpiece will not salve all playing problems.

One thing though. You are the one playing the piece. Not George Roberts.
(Besides, G.R. did not play 1 ½ G the whole of his carrier. Neither does David Taylor)

I dont play Bach 1 ½ G because I do find lots of better pieces for me this days.
The size is good if it fits your playing/horn and needs.
Players using the 1 ½ G size sounding good are probably in their right mind.
Players using the 1 ½ G size sounding bad should maybe consider another piece.

Just to disturb the magic in the discussion a little.

Nothing there that I have a problem with Svenne

Remember, I started this topic with the idea that an old Mt Vernon Bach 1 1/2G was still a viable serious choice today... and that's it... a choice, not THE choice...
everything you say is correct and most importantly, that the mouthpiece must work in the trombone....
if you have a bad match there, you are wasting your time... it won't improve over time, whereas what Sam calls the soft machine... the face, CAN adapt.
The sound that is possible on a good Bach mouthpiece is indeed distinctive, and I think is prized by many, not just because they are used to it, but because it moves those people closest to their ideal, combined with their instrument of choice.
Chris Stearn

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 6:09 am

I remember going over to Dave Taylors' house back in the early 90's. He had this idea that there was "yesterdays' sound" Vs. the"sound of the future" I went to see Him because I had one of the early Edwards Basses. I played it for Him and He was very interested. I also told Him that they(Edwards) would probably bend over backwards to make Him happy. At that point His living room was full of every type of Horn imaginable. I thought His Holton was the best of the lot. A few months later I told Him about a stork 1.5 that might be interesting to try. Here in the States,maybe it's a question of a "Vintage sound" and "Modern Orchestral Sound"-

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 7:16 am

Quote from: Donward59 on Oct 28, 2008, 06:09AMI thought His Holton was the best of the lot.

Does Dave Taylor still own and ever play his old holton?

ttf_Slidennis · Post by **ttf_Slidennis** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 8:10 am

Quote from: svenlarsson on Oct 28, 2008, 03:22AMSome pieces are fantastic in the kitchen but do not work in the band/orchestra/studio/concert hall.
That is my main problem/concern w/mpcs today...
And the rehearsal room that has its acoustics different from any concert hall...

How to predict that a kind of result here will give this result there?

Today I trust more my feelings than my ears...

But this discussion is more over a size range mpc than on a make (Bach) : when is big too big...

I'm stuck with my Wick SM2 / Conn 71H combo... Never been so sure about a mpc/trombone combination than this one... It such a relief...

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 8:21 am

Quote from: Jason8844 on Oct 28, 2008, 07:16AMDoes Dave Taylor still own and ever play his old holton?

I thought I remembered hearing that he sold it to Sam Burtis awhile back, though I think Sam has sold it himself since then.....

ttf_sabutin · Post by **ttf_sabutin** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 8:52 am

Quote from: Mathbone on Oct 28, 2008, 08:21AMI thought I remembered hearing that he sold it to Sam Burtis awhile back, though I think Sam has sold it himself since then.....

Dave owned a number of those Holtons. He sold one to me many years ago (probably not his best instrument but more than good enough for a working doubler) and I played in for...oh, at least 15 years...as my only bass trombone. When I started playing Shires horns, he bought it back from me.

I do not believe that he plays them much anymore. They are indeed great instruments in many respects, but the valve setup is not the best solution to a double valve. A really strong player can overcome the limitations imposed by that setup, but why deal with limitations when they can be overcome in other ways? Their one characteric that I have never felt from any other bass trombone is a certain singing quality all over the horn. Singing with power when pushed. If I was a mostly a bass trombonist who seriously wanted to be a jazz soloist I would still be playing some variation on that Holton idea, only with a better valve and wrap. With a rationally sized m'pce...this is the 1 1/2G thread, right?...that horn was a good a jazz instrument as I have ever played.

Later...

S.

P.S. And yes, there are "new' and "old" bass trombone sounds. Dave was instrumental in creating a new timbral approach to bass trombone. Nothing wrong with the old ways, just "Vive la difference!!!"

ttf_savio · Post by **ttf_savio** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 10:00 am

I do agree with all Svenne says.
When I was a student I suddenly got a Schilke 59. My teachers said no, don't play it. I did play it for about 20 years. All this time I tried to get his big trombone sound. I could not understand why I didn't make it since I had a bigger horn and bigger mouthpiece. I just gave up and was thinking: OK, thats because he is a much better player than me. Thats why I cant get his big sound. The first bass trombone recording I heard was George Roberts and that sound will always be in my head. And his sound was not so far a way from my teachers sound which is maybe more orchestral I think. (whatever that means? hard to describe)

Of course a part of it is my teacher was in another league than me, but today I feel I suddenly got closer to my ideals when switching to a 1 1/2g. Its still my sound but closer and that made me happy. If I had listen my teacher long time ago......

I have to tell this is only me. Another people have another ideals, different horn, different chops, different environment, different kitchen,....................and there are 10000 mouthpieces out there to help us. I'm just happy I found a way to get closer to my "sound in head" thanks to information in this tread.

If my sound really is getting closer to my ideal I cant be sure but I feel so. And the feeling is important. So today I enjoy my playing. Maybe its just because I have practiced more? I don't care but the 1 1/2g made me happy when playing my trombone.
Or should I say my George Roberts MV

And yes Svenne, I know its me playing it, not George Roberts. I don't know if he did play this mouthpiece so much and I don't care. It makes me happy. I play 99% classical stuff. Not in a swinging big band like he did.

Leif

ttf_savio · Post by **ttf_savio** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 11:42 am

Quote from: svenlarsson on Oct 28, 2008, 03:22AMSome pieces are fantastic in the kitchen but do not work in the band/orchestra/studio/concert hall.

Well I disagree a little with this. But just a little.

I think if you have a bass trombone and a mouthpiece that suit your "soft machine" and you play it well it will work everywhere. I think its more the man/woman behind who makes it work in any setting. The reason I believe so its because of what I have seen and listen in my time as a musician. People play on a big trombone with contra mouthpiece but still cant fit in a big orchestra and still have a tiny sound. People play a small horn and small instrument but still have a big sound in big orchestras. The truth is people play everything and the clever one makes it works almost everywhere. I had a big Bach 50bl and was told once I could not use that big trombone in a big band with small tenors. Well it did work very nice for me and I remember the band leader a (trombone player) liked the sound of it in his big band.

I admire I play mostly in the kitchen these days but I have fun......if it works in the kitchen it should works outside also....or?

ttf_Ellrod · Post by **ttf_Ellrod** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 11:55 am

Quote from: savio on Oct 28, 2008, 11:42AMWell I disagree a little with this. But just a little.

I think if you have a bass trombone and a mouthpiece that suit your "soft machine" and you play it well it will work everywhere. I think its more the man/woman behind who makes it work in any setting. The reason I believe so its because of what I have seen and listen in my time as a musician. People play on a big trombone with contra mouthpiece but still cant fit in a big orchestra and still have a tiny sound. People play a small horn and small instrument but still have a big sound in big orchestras. The truth is people play everything and the clever one makes it works almost everywhere. I had a big Bach 50bl and was told once I could not use that big trombone in a big band with small tenors. Well it did work very nice for me and I remember the band leader a (trombone player) liked the sound of it in his big band.

I admire I play mostly in the kitchen these days but I have fun......if it works in the kitchen it should works outside also....or?

My experience with a Laskey 93 (I have been trying the big piece for about 2 weeks now) so far is that it sounds fine at home but the sound tends to get a little lost in the big band. I think this is due to a darker warmer sound that gets covered up in all that stuff down in that register, particularly the rhythm section and partly because I am used to hearing the warmer sound and a bit of an edge with my Black 1 1/2G.

ttf_ali.syme · Post by **ttf_ali.syme** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 1:39 pm

Hrumm...I started with a tiny Yamaha creation. I got a Bach Bass Trombone, and moved to the 1 1/2G which I don't regret in the slightest - a perfect mouthpiece for learning pedal notes and developing a good range on a larger instrument. "This is a great mouthpiece - I'm learning so much," I thought. "What'll happen if I used a Douglas Yeo creation? He seems to find it useful".

How that man can call his signature mouthpiece a success is beyond me. Luckily, none of my money has ended up in his hands. But he might as well have stolen a tuba mouthpiece and written his name on it for all it's worth. I tried "working in" the Yeo but no - no chance. It's like working a bucket on to your face.

I've decided my next bass will be a Rath - and I'd try keep the Bach mouthpiece. But if I'm moving mouthpiece and want to hold on to the same sound I'm getting from the Bach Bach combo, I'd for for a Model BT-1 (Monette) designed with John Englekist, principal bass trombone of the San Francisco Symphony. It's has all that middle range quality you want in a trombone without too much of a polite orchestral sound when moving to concert band or jazz band.

The rim of any mouthpiece depends on how flexible your lip technique is (in my opinion). Early on, the restrictions of the mouthpiece were clear from the feeling around the lip particularly at the top. In something like the yeo, you can't get comfortable developing flexible lips because the thing starts at your nose and ends at the bottom of your chin.

Simply an opinion - but in conclusion, developing skills on pedal notes demands a mouthpiece like the 1 1/2G.

Ali Syme

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 4:06 pm

Quote from: Jason8844 on Oct 28, 2008, 07:16AMDoes Dave Taylor still own and ever play his old holton?
Yes and He's got more than one-

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 4:07 pm

As far as I know Dave Taylor doesn't play His Holton anymore(Yesterdays sound) as He puts it-