Internal cleaning stubborn valve section.

Post Reply
marccromme
Posts: 136
Joined: Fri Mar 30, 2018 7:03 am
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
Contact:

Internal cleaning stubborn valve section.

Post by marccromme » Mon May 18, 2020 10:23 am

I got a beater king 5b with the usual yellowish epoxy laquer. With 30 years of grease, crud, limestone,whatever deposits in the tubes, especially valve section.

The usual cycle of disassempling everything, bathing in warm soap water for an hour, snaking through, filling tubes with 16% vinagre acid and a bit of salt, waiting 30 min, snaking once more, and a final soap and snake bath did only remove little of the crud. Second round did little to improve.

The remaining crud seems to be a blend of limestone, oxide and harsh old grease and oil.

So, I might try a base, pH 10 or 12, maybe, since acid does not do the job. Or bad idea? What to use, maybe strong brown soap used to clean floors? Of course, no samiak.

Any tips for stubborn crud?
hyperbolica
Posts: 1013
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2018 7:31 am

Re: Internal cleaning stubborn valve section.

Post by hyperbolica » Mon May 18, 2020 11:07 am

In the states we have a product called CLR (calcium lime and rust). Commonly used on plumbing, so a trombone shouldn't be too far out of line.

https://clrbrands.com/?&utm_campaign=95 ... lsrc=aw.ds
Posaunus
Posts: 839
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2018 9:54 pm
Location: California

Re: Internal cleaning stubborn valve section.

Post by Posaunus » Mon May 18, 2020 11:23 am

hyperbolica wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 11:07 am
In the states we have a product called CLR (calcium lime and rust). Commonly used on plumbing, so a trombone shouldn't be too far out of line.

https://clrbrands.com/?&utm_campaign=95 ... lsrc=aw.ds
CLR is an acid mixture.
Ingredients:

Water Dilutent: CAS #7732-18-5 EPA Approved
Lactic Acid Chelating Agent: CAS #79-33-4. EPA Approved
Lauramine Oxide Surfactant: CAS #1643-20-5. EPA Approved
Gluconic Acid Chelating Agent: CAS #526-95-4. EPA Approved
Tripropylene Glycol n-Butyl Ether Solvent: CAS #55934-93-5. EPA Approved
Yellow No. 5 Colorent: CAS #1934-21-0. EPA Approved
Acid Blue No.1 Colorent: CAS #3844-45-9. EPA Approved

I've used this on plumbing fixtures to remove hard water deposits.

On a trombone – I expect that CLR will do a pretty good job of removing calcium / magnesium deposits, and probably will not harm your trombone if rinsed off thoroughly after brief exposure.

I yield to chemists or those more experienced in its use for better guidance.
marccromme
Posts: 136
Joined: Fri Mar 30, 2018 7:03 am
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
Contact:

Re: Internal cleaning stubborn valve section.

Post by marccromme » Mon May 18, 2020 11:29 am

Lactic acid and tripropylene, heavy stufff. Does it strip laquer?
Last edited by marccromme on Mon May 18, 2020 11:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
marccromme
Posts: 136
Joined: Fri Mar 30, 2018 7:03 am
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
Contact:

Re: Internal cleaning stubborn valve section.

Post by marccromme » Mon May 18, 2020 11:31 am

I don't think its the calcium deposits, but the harsh grease and oil intermined with it thats the problem....
User avatar
BGuttman
Posts: 2074
Joined: Thu Mar 22, 2018 7:19 am
Location: Cow Hampshire

Re: Internal cleaning stubborn valve section.

Post by BGuttman » Mon May 18, 2020 1:27 pm

The propylene glycol may attack some lacquers, but not epoxy lacquers as used on King and Yamaha trombones. I'd worry more if it were a Bach with cellulose lacquer.

The glycol does work on tars and greases if that's your problem.

I'm surprised you couldn't clean things nicely by disassembling the valve. That's what I used to do.
Bruce Guttman
Merrimack Valley Philharmonic Orchestra
"Almost Professional"
bigbandbone
Posts: 364
Joined: Thu Jan 17, 2019 7:45 am

Re: Internal cleaning stubborn valve section.

Post by bigbandbone » Mon May 18, 2020 5:09 pm

I use CLR. It stinks, but it works.
mrdeacon
Posts: 726
Joined: Tue May 08, 2018 2:05 am
Location: Los Angeles, California

Re: Internal cleaning stubborn valve section.

Post by mrdeacon » Mon May 18, 2020 5:49 pm

Take it to a tech!!!!!
Rath R1 2000s, Elliott XT
Bach 42B 1977, Elliott XT
Holton 169 1960s, Symington 1.5 ZR
Minick Bass Trombone 1980s, Symington 1.5 ZR
marccromme
Posts: 136
Joined: Fri Mar 30, 2018 7:03 am
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
Contact:

Re: Internal cleaning stubborn valve section.

Post by marccromme » Tue May 19, 2020 12:19 am

mrdeacon wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 5:49 pm
Take it to a tech!!!!!
No, where is the fun of that? Whenever I have a beaten trombone, I do all stuff myself and learn along. Great challenge, great fun.
tbonesullivan
Posts: 473
Joined: Tue Jul 02, 2019 9:06 am
Location: New Jersey
Contact:

Re: Internal cleaning stubborn valve section.

Post by tbonesullivan » Tue May 19, 2020 1:01 pm

If you get a small ultrasonic cleaner, say one for jewelry, and mix in some detergent, you would be amazed what it can do. It literally shakes off mineral deposits and oxidation, without any kind of acid agent.
David S. - daveyboy37 from TTF
Bach 39 Alto, King 2103 / 3b, Yamaha YSL-640, Bach 42T, Kanstul 1570CR, Kanstul 1588CR, Yamaha YBL-612 RII, Sterling Perantucci 1056GHS Euphonium, Yamaha YBB-631S Tuba
Livingston Symphony Orchestra NJ - Trombone
Posaunus
Posts: 839
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2018 9:54 pm
Location: California

Re: Internal cleaning stubborn valve section.

Post by Posaunus » Tue May 19, 2020 1:29 pm

tbonesullivan wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 1:01 pm
If you get a small ultrasonic cleaner, say one for jewelry, and mix in some detergent, you would be amazed what it can do. It literally shakes off mineral deposits and oxidation, without any kind of acid agent.
:good: Excellent idea. Small ultrasonic cleaners seem to be widely available for less than $50. Could probably also be used for stubborn deposits in grooves of mouthpieces, etc.
timothy42b
Posts: 589
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2018 5:51 am
Location: central Virginia

Re: Internal cleaning stubborn valve section.

Post by timothy42b » Tue May 19, 2020 2:04 pm

Posaunus wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 1:29 pm
tbonesullivan wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 1:01 pm
If you get a small ultrasonic cleaner, say one for jewelry, and mix in some detergent, you would be amazed what it can do. It literally shakes off mineral deposits and oxidation, without any kind of acid agent.
:good: Excellent idea. Small ultrasonic cleaners seem to be widely available for less than $50. Could probably also be used for stubborn deposits in grooves of mouthpieces, etc.
I dunno. I bought one, it didn't do much even to a mouthpiece. I tried the aluminum foil test and it wouldn't pit.

Now, the industrial parts cleaners ones will blast off about anything. But those are expensive.
Crazy4Tbone86
Posts: 59
Joined: Tue Jan 14, 2020 10:52 am

Re: Internal cleaning stubborn valve section.

Post by Crazy4Tbone86 » Wed May 20, 2020 8:24 pm

If you have stubborn lime scale in your instrument, you need to be careful with ultrasonic cleaners. When the calcium and lime deposits are really settled into the metal, the ultrasonic machines can actually turn those spots into holes in the brass tubing. We made that mistake a few times when we got new ultrasonic cleaners in a shop I worked in several years ago. The best method for very stubborn lime and calcium is a combination of acid clean plus pumice soap scrub. It may take several repetitions, but at least you will not chew a hole in the brass. Ultrasonic cleaners are not always the "be all, end all" cleaning tool.
Brian D. Hinkley - Player, Teacher, Technician and Trombone Enthusiast
tbonesullivan
Posts: 473
Joined: Tue Jul 02, 2019 9:06 am
Location: New Jersey
Contact:

Re: Internal cleaning stubborn valve section.

Post by tbonesullivan » Wed May 20, 2020 8:41 pm

OUCH. You mean it vibrated the calcium deposits enough to wear through the brass? Dang that's pretty insane. I guess if you've got massive calcium deposits, acid is probably the best way. I think phosphoric acid works on it, and that is much less likely to attack brass. In fact, I Think you end up with a nice think phosphate coating after use.
David S. - daveyboy37 from TTF
Bach 39 Alto, King 2103 / 3b, Yamaha YSL-640, Bach 42T, Kanstul 1570CR, Kanstul 1588CR, Yamaha YBL-612 RII, Sterling Perantucci 1056GHS Euphonium, Yamaha YBB-631S Tuba
Livingston Symphony Orchestra NJ - Trombone
Doug Elliott
Posts: 966
Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:12 pm

Re: Internal cleaning stubborn valve section.

Post by Doug Elliott » Wed May 20, 2020 10:33 pm

Ultrasonic will poke holes in aluminum foil but if it's doing that to brass tubing, the hole was already almost there - extremely bad corrosion or red rot.

An ultrasonic jewelry cleaner won't do anything for lime or deposits in tubing in my experience. Maybe with vinegar but not detergent.
afugate
Posts: 278
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2018 5:47 am

Re: Internal cleaning stubborn valve section.

Post by afugate » Thu May 21, 2020 6:19 am

tbonesullivan wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 8:41 pm
OUCH. You mean it vibrated the calcium deposits enough to wear through the brass? Dang that's pretty insane. I guess if you've got massive calcium deposits, acid is probably the best way. I think phosphoric acid works on it, and that is much less likely to attack brass. In fact, I Think you end up with a nice think phosphate coating after use.
So a good soak in soda pop? :biggrin:

--Andy in OKC
User avatar
BGuttman
Posts: 2074
Joined: Thu Mar 22, 2018 7:19 am
Location: Cow Hampshire

Re: Internal cleaning stubborn valve section.

Post by BGuttman » Thu May 21, 2020 7:12 am

Coca-Cola is the only one I know with phosphoric acid. And it contains a lot of other junk I don't think helps.

Auto radiator flush contains oxalic acid. Also better for copper containing tubing.
Bruce Guttman
Merrimack Valley Philharmonic Orchestra
"Almost Professional"
Bonearzt
Posts: 362
Joined: Thu Mar 22, 2018 7:40 am
Location: My Dungeon of Hell....Actually Texas
Contact:

Re: Internal cleaning stubborn valve section.

Post by Bonearzt » Thu May 21, 2020 7:51 am

The ultra sonic cleaners will blast through red rot in a heartbeat! So be very careful especially on older horns!!!

If it's old grease caked up, use a heavy duty degreaser such as an engine cleaner or even acetone, and then concentrate on the mineral deposits! Acids usually don't have any effect on grease & oils.
Not sure what's available in Denmark, but check with plumbers and auto mechanics especially ones that deal with radiators.

Eric
Eric Edwards
Professional Instrument Repair
972.795.5784

"If you must choose between two evils, choose the one you haven't tried yet."
"Rather fail with honor than succeed by fraud." -Sophocles
tbonesullivan
Posts: 473
Joined: Tue Jul 02, 2019 9:06 am
Location: New Jersey
Contact:

Re: Internal cleaning stubborn valve section.

Post by tbonesullivan » Thu May 21, 2020 2:31 pm

BGuttman wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 7:12 am
Coca-Cola is the only one I know with phosphoric acid.
I think it's in pretty much all "Cola" drinks. Pepsi, RC, and Coke all have it, probably many others.
David S. - daveyboy37 from TTF
Bach 39 Alto, King 2103 / 3b, Yamaha YSL-640, Bach 42T, Kanstul 1570CR, Kanstul 1588CR, Yamaha YBL-612 RII, Sterling Perantucci 1056GHS Euphonium, Yamaha YBB-631S Tuba
Livingston Symphony Orchestra NJ - Trombone
biggiesmalls
Posts: 144
Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2019 2:52 pm
Contact:

Re: Internal cleaning stubborn valve section.

Post by biggiesmalls » Sat May 23, 2020 3:35 pm

I completely agree with Eric about de-greasing first. Sometimes multiple swabbings with denatured alcohol can remove lighter deposits of hard grease build-up.

I've cleaned out some very stubborn mineral deposits using Barkeeper's Friend Liquid (oxcalic acid) with a snake brush. Non-abrasive, and rinses clean with no residue. Sometimes it takes two or three brush/rinse/reapplication cycles, but by the third rinse the water has gone from blue/green/brown to clear. I've had my share of vintage slides that were straight and dent-free, but would barely budge; after several brush/rinse cycles with BKF, many of them turned out 8/10 or better with no further adjustments.
Visit my studio in Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA!
Doug Elliott
Posts: 966
Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:12 pm

Re: Internal cleaning stubborn valve section.

Post by Doug Elliott » Sat May 23, 2020 10:02 pm

I think Barkeeper's Friend Liquid is a fairly new product. I have some but never thought to use it that way.
biggiesmalls
Posts: 144
Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2019 2:52 pm
Contact:

Re: Internal cleaning stubborn valve section.

Post by biggiesmalls » Sat May 23, 2020 11:00 pm

Doug Elliott wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 10:02 pm
I think Barkeeper's Friend Liquid is a fairly new product. I have some but never thought to use it that way.
The liquid BKF has only been around for a few years. In the past I would made up a thin paste by mixing BKF powder with water, but the liquid is much more convenient. It comes in a big bottle, so it can be used liberally. Ace Hardware always has it in stock.
Visit my studio in Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA!
marccromme
Posts: 136
Joined: Fri Mar 30, 2018 7:03 am
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
Contact:

Re: Internal cleaning stubborn valve section.

Post by marccromme » Sun May 24, 2020 11:34 am

Bonearzt wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 7:51 am
If it's old grease caked up, use a heavy duty degreaser such as an engine cleaner or even acetone, and then concentrate on the mineral deposits! Acids usually don't have any effect on grease & oils.
Not sure what's available in Denmark, but check with plumbers and auto mechanics especially ones that deal with radiators.
Excellent idea, Eric. I'll ask my auto mechanics what be uses for radiators. Great thought!
Bonearzt
Posts: 362
Joined: Thu Mar 22, 2018 7:40 am
Location: My Dungeon of Hell....Actually Texas
Contact:

Re: Internal cleaning stubborn valve section.

Post by Bonearzt » Sun May 24, 2020 2:15 pm

marccromme wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 11:34 am
Bonearzt wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 7:51 am
If it's old grease caked up, use a heavy duty degreaser such as an engine cleaner or even acetone, and then concentrate on the mineral deposits! Acids usually don't have any effect on grease & oils.
Not sure what's available in Denmark, but check with plumbers and auto mechanics especially ones that deal with radiators.
z

Excellent idea, Eric. I'll ask my auto mechanics what be uses for radiators. Great thought!
Best of luck!

And definitely try to use the weakest concentration you can to avoid pitting the brass!!
Eric Edwards
Professional Instrument Repair
972.795.5784

"If you must choose between two evils, choose the one you haven't tried yet."
"Rather fail with honor than succeed by fraud." -Sophocles
Crazy4Tbone86
Posts: 59
Joined: Tue Jan 14, 2020 10:52 am

Re: Internal cleaning stubborn valve section.

Post by Crazy4Tbone86 » Tue Jun 02, 2020 6:07 pm

If you are looking for a degreaser that will take care of any grease or oil, I recommend PJ1 Super Cleaner - Industrial Grade. It makes grease fall off of metal with no impact on the metal. It is used by many mechanics and cycle shops. The only problem is that it takes off some lacquers as well. As long as you can keep it on the inside of the tubing (tricky), it will remove any grease that exists in a trombone.
Brian D. Hinkley - Player, Teacher, Technician and Trombone Enthusiast
Post Reply

Return to “Maintenance”