Mouthpiece suggestions

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Bassbonechandler
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Mouthpiece suggestions

Post by Bassbonechandler » Sun Jul 08, 2018 11:46 am

Hello all,

I am a music ed major currently about to go into my junior year. My primary is bass trombone with doubling on tenor (large and small) during the school year. After recently switching mouthpieces on my bass to a laskey 93d, I really like the way it plays. I wanted to get something laskey for small, large and alto for when I'm back at school (I do doubling frequently). I noticed that there really isn't a way to maintain the same rim size across all three mouthpieces. Is that something to consider as a easier method of switching between the three? If so, what would you recommend?

Thanks,

Chandler
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BGuttman
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Re: Mouthpiece suggestions

Post by BGuttman » Sun Jul 08, 2018 12:39 pm

First, the mouthpiece you use for Bass is going to necessarily be bigger than anything you use on the smaller horns. So forget about a 93 rim on a shallow cup.

You can either choose a rim sized for the horn or one rim with many cups. For the latter choice you need to look at Doug Elliott; he's probably the only game in town. Whether you can tolerate a bunch of different rims for different horns depends on you. Some of us can and some can't (I can't).

What I do is to have a number of mouthpieces of similar rim size and different depths. For small bore and Alto I use Bach 4C. For Medium Bore I use a Wick 4BS. For large bore I use a Wick 4BL. I've never played a Laskey and don't now what they might have for an equivalent.
Bruce Guttman
Merrimack Valley Philharmonic Orchestra
Bassbonechandler
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Re: Mouthpiece suggestions

Post by Bassbonechandler » Sun Jul 08, 2018 12:52 pm

Is there any evidence to suggest switching rims a lot would make me worse at my primary?
imsevimse
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Re: Mouthpiece suggestions

Post by imsevimse » Sun Jul 08, 2018 1:50 pm

Bassbonechandler wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 11:46 am
Hello all,

I am a music ed major currently about to go into my junior year. My primary is bass trombone with doubling on tenor (large and small) during the school year. After recently switching mouthpieces on my bass to a laskey 93d, I really like the way it plays. I wanted to get something laskey for small, large and alto for when I'm back at school (I do doubling frequently). I noticed that there really isn't a way to maintain the same rim size across all three mouthpieces. Is that something to consider as a easier method of switching between the three? If so, what would you recommend?

Thanks,

Chandler
My experience is the best result is to find the best match on each horn. I only played tenor until I was 19, then I bought my alto. My bass I bought when I was 26. I have always used different rims. From Bach 12E on alto to Bach 1 1/4 on the bass but it took years to make that work and I had not the option to switch cups and use the same rim the way people do now.

Maybe the system with very close rims and different cups is good because it is a familiar feeling on the chops but eventually you might look upon it differently. To my experience the rim is not only the feel. To me the rim effects both endurance and how I sound on the horn.

What I think is important is to work on one mouthpiece first and not jump much between rims until the emboschure is ready. When looking back I was not ready at 19 and not ready ar 26. Now when I do the changes they do no harm my embouchure, not as long as I use a good technique on each rim.

/Tom
Last edited by imsevimse on Mon Jul 09, 2018 4:16 am, edited 6 times in total.
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Posaunus
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Re: Mouthpiece suggestions

Post by Posaunus » Sun Jul 08, 2018 4:11 pm

Bassbonechandler wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 12:52 pm
Is there any evidence to suggest switching rims a lot would make me worse at my primary?
Doubtful.

I switch regularly, depending on the trombone, type of music, the sound I want to produce (and, to be honest, my mood). I don't think it makes me any worse per se (though perhaps I was not very good to start with?).

But I do feel that, in general, smaller mouthpieces make it easier to produce idiomatic sounds on small-bore trombones, and bigger mouthpieces are better on larger instruments. [I play a range of trombones, from 0.481" bore (King 2B) to 0.563" bore (Yamaha bass)]. My chops adapt fairly readily.
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sirisobhakya
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Re: Mouthpiece suggestions

Post by sirisobhakya » Sun Jul 08, 2018 7:42 pm

Bassbonechandler wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 12:52 pm
Is there any evidence to suggest switching rims a lot would make me worse at my primary?
If your chops is already well developed (e.g. you know what your lips are doing, and I believe you do know), changing rims back and forth is usually no problem. I use Yamaha Douglas Yeo for my bass, Bach 3G as a cheating mpc for high notes, and 51C4 for tenor, all in the same gig, sometimes even all in the same song. The adaptation period is no more than 2-3 blows.

But if you do HAVE problem switching, it is better to start from rim sizes that are closer together, then gradually widen the difference.
Chaichan Wiriyaswat
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Doug Elliott
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Re: Mouthpiece suggestions

Post by Doug Elliott » Sun Jul 08, 2018 7:57 pm

Playing several different rim sizes requires regular practice on all of them to keep up the ability to switch. I think everyone who uses completely different mouthpieces for different horns agrees on that.

My preference - as a professional player, I'm not an amateur - is to use my limited practice time more wisely than just to keep different rim sizes working.

Using the same rim size for multiple horns makes you better and stronger on all of them. There are limits - a 93D rim size is not going to give good results on a small tenor or alto, no matter how much you practice.

I make my mouthpiece line specifically to make playing easy and efficient on any horn or combination of horns. With one rim size that works best for me I can pick up any of my horns and play at my usual level immediately with no practice at all on switching.
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Re: Mouthpiece suggestions

Post by BurckhardtS » Sun Jul 08, 2018 8:27 pm

As a student, I play on a large rim on my small tenor. I play Doug's XT106C+3. It's large, but I have no problem getting an 'idiomatic' sound with it. Then I don't have to spend the practice time getting used to switching rim sizes, which I used to do and was a huge struggle because I would never feel completely comfortable on one or the other.

When I play bass, I approach it almost as an entirely different instrument especially due to the range demands being completely different, which requires practicing in itself. I don't expect tenor and bass to feel the same way, even if the harmonic series is the same. I play a proportionately larger bass mouthpiece. I don't pretend to do full-time bass work, I just have been asked to do it more than a few times.

I forgot my small tenor mouthpiece on a big band gig a few months back, and I played on a 12C that happened to be in my Yamaha case. My chops worked, but it felt very uncomfortable and I lost both my highest register and practically everything below middle F.
Bassbonechandler
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Re: Mouthpiece suggestions

Post by Bassbonechandler » Sun Jul 08, 2018 8:47 pm

There's a couple used laskey pieces for sale on Dillon's I was crossing my fingers would stay on there until the semester starts. I would love to eventually try Mr. Elliott's mouthpieces, but I don't have the funds for something like that yet.
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PhilipEdCarlson
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Re: Mouthpiece suggestions

Post by PhilipEdCarlson » Sun Jul 08, 2018 10:26 pm

Doug Elliott rushed out a Lexan XT106 rim so I could have it at the Aebersold Camp. today at the sorting audition my judges said they liked my sound. one commented on the surprisingly BIG DE rim on the small horn (Olds Super), he said it sounded like it was the right setup (106XTC2) for me. Thanks for helping me out with that Doug!

I'll be using the 106XTC2 on my small horns, 106XTG8 on my large horn (88H) and 116LBK9on my bass (TR181) maybe an 116LBJ8 in my 72H. I don't have a medium bore horn, or an alto, yet... I expectI'll use 106XTC on those too, whenever I get those.

Doug, you mentioned issuing the same room on all his horns. I'm using 106 on everything but bass. Do you use the same rim on bass too? the XT series does go up to L which is larger than the cup I use on bass, so it's got the depth that should cover me bass-alto. I know some suggest that I'm doing, larger room for bass and smaller one for everything else. But, as the matter of the system, using the same room on everything I thinkis interesting. I didn'won't change based on your answer, but I just wanted to make sure I understood. Do you use the same room on everything?
Philip Carlson
TR-181, 72H, 88HCL, 32H, 30H, 4H, 50's Super, 40's Super, Buescher True-Tone 410 & The Buescher, Constellation Euph, Getzen Severenson
Doug Elliott
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Re: Mouthpiece suggestions

Post by Doug Elliott » Mon Jul 09, 2018 12:00 am

I don't play bass trombone. I have faked it several times when necessary and I think I've used completely different mouthpieces each time, getting progressively bigger, playing on my large tenor. The only "bass trombone" I have is a 1930's Olds 547/562 TIS flatwrap which I think is a pretty cool horn but certainly not a bass trombone by today's standards. The last time I think I used a 113 rim and an L cup. But I have never practiced it.

This is getting way off subject.
Bassbonechandler
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Re: Mouthpiece suggestions

Post by Bassbonechandler » Mon Jul 09, 2018 7:05 am

Something that might matter, I play off center a little bit and put most of the mouthpiece on my top lip. Should this mean I should look for a bigger overall rim size? This is for large, small and alto
Doug Elliott
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Re: Mouthpiece suggestions

Post by Doug Elliott » Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:26 am

Probably yes
Namibiantrombone
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Re: Mouthpiece suggestions

Post by Namibiantrombone » Tue Jul 17, 2018 4:05 am

I started playing on a trombone given to me which had an alto mouthpiece as I found out. Played on it for a year even though I got a Yamaha ysl student model 354 E. I started playing on the latter mouthpiece for a few months now. I practice exclusively on it, however I find I can't tighten my lips enough during performance as it keeps falling/dropping even though I move the mouthpiece up and tighten lips. Eventually I have to revert to the alto mouthpiece which initially can't match the dark and open sound of the 48, though I can play for hours and still reach high notes with ease. While mouthpiece market may be out of reach, due to shipping issues, etc, I read on trumpetherald comments that such an issue could be related to over practice. I must admit I practice regularly fundamentals/ daily practice routines which last about an hour before I could even move over to daily sightreading and ear training. I could practice for 2 hours or more with the 48, without a problem, but I guess the material I use for practice does not have consistent high notes. Does it take time to get used to a mouthpiece through practice?
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Re: Mouthpiece suggestions

Post by Doug Elliott » Tue Jul 17, 2018 10:09 am

When you say
"I find I can't tighten my lips enough during performance as it keeps falling/dropping even though I move the mouthpiece up and tighten lips. "
Do you mean the mouthpiece slips down off of your top lip?
If so, when does it happen? When you try to play high notes? Or when you play low notes?
Ndwood
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Re: Mouthpiece suggestions

Post by Ndwood » Tue Jul 17, 2018 10:15 am

FWIW I also play a large bass mouthpiece (Griego Taylor 0, but came from a 93D) and have found that a spectrum of mouthpieces works the best for me when it comes to smaller instruments. When I play large tenor I have an Elliott 106 rim on a Greg Black 5G underpart. The rim is too small for me and something closer to a 108-110 would probably make my life a lot easier but I don't play tenor a ton so I haven't spent the money yet to try it out. On small tenor though I use the 106 rim with an F and C underpart and it works great. On alto I used a 104CaltoS setup and it was great - the 106 felt just a little too big for some things. For things like the Mozart Requiem though that benefit from a lighter, more transparent sound, I usually wind up using a Schilke 47B. It's not comfortable for me and a B or A Doug Elliott cup would probably be a better solution but I try to avoid alto at all costs these days anyway.

This definitely doesn't allow me to switch seamlessly between all of these setups if I'm not warmed up, but it's the best compromise I've found so far. When I play anything smaller than my bass mouthpiece it takes about 10 minutes of warming up on the smaller rim to eliminate a shift in my middle register around F that can creep back in.
Basbasun
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Re: Mouthpiece suggestions

Post by Basbasun » Wed Jul 18, 2018 8:22 am

To play alto, small tenor and large tenor you can get by with the same rim and different cups. I have done it, several of my collegues have done it. But if you can use different rims you will maybe get a sound on each horn you like better.
If you play Bass trombone as your major horn and try to use the same rim you will probably come to realise that it really does not save any time but it might give problems playing. I have tried it, Lots of my x-collegues have tried it. No luck for any of us.
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Matt K
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Re: Mouthpiece suggestions

Post by Matt K » Wed Jul 18, 2018 11:11 am

Basbasun wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 8:22 am
To play alto, small tenor and large tenor you can get by with the same rim and different cups. I have done it, several of my collegues have done it. But if you can use different rims you will maybe get a sound on each horn you like better.
If you play Bass trombone as your major horn and try to use the same rim you will probably come to realise that it really does not save any time but it might give problems playing. I have tried it, Lots of my x-collegues have tried it. No luck for any of us.
Seems to depend somewhat on your physiology. I played for about a year on an 11C for small bore and I was never able to get a more characteristic sound out of it than the 104N I used for classical playing so I just switched to it permanently.

But yeah, for bass, I played a Euph104N/K/K8 for a few years. (Mostly for a local swing band). But I've been getting progressively larger on the rim size... on a LB114 now and contemplating going larger. Each time I've gone to a larger rim, I've been able to get a sound I like (and more importantly, saxophone sections that my bell is pointed in their ear) better than what I was on previously in a very sort period of time. Often minutes, but sometimes a day or two.

But then, there are numerous phenomenal players who have gone a different route (or opposite!) and sound really great. Probably some degree of "there's more than one way to skin a cat" and "people are unique" but who knows what that actual combination is. Just throwing it out there that both of these contrary experiences are valid, albeit anecdotal.
Basbasun
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Re: Mouthpiece suggestions

Post by Basbasun » Wed Jul 18, 2018 2:18 pm

Well, I realy don´t play the same rim on all tenors today. I said you can get by doing that. Try it, I did for some time, but find out I did not like the result. But some players do.
DutchGuy
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Re: Mouthpiece suggestions

Post by DutchGuy » Thu Jul 19, 2018 3:16 am

As mentioned, easiest would be to keep the same rim and different everything else.

As for switching between different pieces: that works only if you actually practice on all of them enough.
I haven't played bass before, but I play the trumpet and flugelhorn in addition to trombone. Both with a completely different mouthpiece. If I don't practice either of them, the playing will suffer.
On the trumpet forums, the pro's there have more or less reached the following consensus: You can switch, and it will work, but only if you practice for about the same duration as you did before, but then on BOTH mouthpieces/instruments. So, you want to play 2 instruments? Practice twice as much and it'll work. This advise was for trumpet/trombone, so between 2 different trombones you may not have to double the playing time, but do'nt expect to keep improving at the same rate when you stard dividing your time between multiple instruments.
Getting a decent sound of the instrument won't be much of a challenge, but if you want to continue to improve and master both instruments, this is the way to go.
Basbasun
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Re: Mouthpiece suggestions

Post by Basbasun » Fri Jul 20, 2018 4:30 am

As I said, using the same rim for different tenortrombones does work. But many players prefer to use different rims anyway, for different reasons. Sound is one.

However, using the same rim for tenor and bass only works in a very limited way. And rarely even that.
If you are the least serious about the basstrombone/tenordoubling do use different rims. We are very many players doing that. Hard? Na. Doubling trombone and trumpet, hard? Na. You got to pratcise.
Look you practise scales and arpegios right? (I hope) Practise half the scales on bass the other half on tenor, next day the other way around. The same with patterns and tunes.


Years ago I practised tuba , french horn, trumpet and tenor and basstrombone, today I am to old for that, stick to tuba tenor and bastrombone.
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